[OLD] UGr Threshold

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Originally Posted by goobafish

Keep in mind, once they try for the first one (usually with the help of a Tomb or City) it can be dazed, and the land can be wasted which buys you time to find more counters. A few cards you are more than happy to let resolve, like all the equipments, and the creatures. The real issue cards are Blood Moon and Chalice, Chalice can be Spell Snared, so you save your forces and dazes for the Moon. Personally, I have never had too much trouble with the matchup.

@arsenal
Run Pyroclasms. They are great against Goblins, Ichorid and TES. They are really important to have in your board in case you run into a Weenie aggro deck.

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This makes me think you've never played against the deck. I'm not trying to stir anything up, I'm just saying.

Daze is honestly terrible here. For one thing, they have 3-4 mana past turn 1, so it becomes useless there. Also, they run simian spirit guide. They can play around daze and even trick you into playing one by playing into it. Good players don't get nailed by daze. Also, they only have 8 nonbasics, play moon effects that neuter wasteland, and run artifact mana. Wasteland is okay, but not great by any means.

This makes your condition for victory a force (with the obligatory blue card), a spell snare (on the play only), a few tarmogoyfs, and the necessary lands. I know we play cantrips, but well it seems a bit unlikely.

Again: Dragon Stompy is not unwinnable by any means, but you're kidding yourself if you decide that it's favored for you.

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Originally Posted by Nihil Credo

If by "overcommitting" you mean "drop a Rakdos Pit-Dragon" or "drop an Arc-Slogger" (sometimes Gathan Raiders, Taurean Mauler, and Umezawa's Jitte can also step up to the challenge), then sure.

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All of those cards cost RR and DStompy does not run the best manabase. All I'm saying is that resolving Tarmogoyf is the best card in that matchup and in most situations puts your opponent on the defensive.

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Originally Posted by MULocke

This makes me think you've never played against the deck. I'm not trying to stir anything up, I'm just saying.

Daze is honestly terrible here. For one thing, they have 3-4 mana past turn 1, so it becomes useless there. Also, they run simian spirit guide. They can play around daze and even trick you into playing one by playing into it. Good players don't get nailed by daze. Also, they only have 8 nonbasics, play moon effects that neuter wasteland, and run artifact mana. Wasteland is okay, but not great by any means.

This makes your condition for victory a force (with the obligatory blue card), a spell snare (on the play only), a few tarmogoyfs, and the necessary lands. I know we play cantrips, but well it seems a bit unlikely.

Again: Dragon Stompy is not unwinnable by any means, but you're kidding yourself if you decide that it's favored for you.

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You do know who you're talking to, right?
I tested the matchup with Dave, and the only way I was winning was resolving Blood Moon and I think maybe one other where a Gathan Raiders tricked him out of the game.

The matchup is even and if anything, you're favored. You're making up these scenarios where the Dragon Stompy player draws a consistant stream of disruption, mana and threats to back it up. In actual playtesting, this simply doesn't happen. Also, them being at 3-4 mana by turn 2 doesn't really matter much, especially when they are casting spells at 3-4 mana. Daze is still especially relevent.

My testing has shown otherwise. Perhaps I haven't played the most competent Dragon Stompy players? I don't know. I am merely stating how the games pan out. You seem to be relying on a theoretical approach. I have had many players talk about "Playing Around Daze" but often, that isn't feasible. If you play around Daze the whole game, it is as if you are granting your opponent free Time Walks to drop and swing with Tarmogoyfs and Geese, to find cantrips to get the Forces they need to counter the important spells, and more opportunities to waste lands. As I stated in my primer, I find Dragon Stompy to be slightly favorable against an average player, in my personal testing. This has not changed.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one, then. One of the regulars at my store plays the deck almost all the time, and we test a lot. I just find that playing around daze is so convienent for them as SSG does it naturally, so you only get ~4 hard counters for moon effects, 3sphere, etc. I will admit red splash has a better MU than other thresh as magus of the moon is basically a blank, but I've still got it at 40-60 or so.

I've been working on my SB now for Gen-Con, and I'm not sure what the last few slots should be (thrash MD):

2 crypt
2 pyroclasm
2 krosan grip
4 redblasts
2 trygon predator
3 open slots

my open slots are between more crypts, another clasm, some EEs, and the 3rd trygon predator. any thoughts?

Also, is there any real reason for the change from the 1 wipe away and the 1 rushing river to 2 rivers?

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Originally Posted by MULocke

Also, is there any real reason for the change from the 1 wipe away and the 1 rushing river to 2 rivers?

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Nope. I have since then changed back.

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Originally Posted by MULocke

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one, then. One of the regulars at my store plays the deck almost all the time, and we test a lot. I just find that playing around daze is so convienent for them as SSG does it naturally, so you only get ~4 hard counters for moon effects, 3sphere, etc. I will admit red splash has a better MU than other thresh as magus of the moon is basically a blank, but I've still got it at 40-60 or so.

I've been working on my SB now for Gen-Con, and I'm not sure what the last few slots should be (thrash MD):

2 crypt
2 pyroclasm
2 krosan grip
4 redblasts
2 trygon predator
3 open slots

my open slots are between more crypts, another clasm, some EEs, and the 3rd trygon predator. any thoughts?

Also, is there any real reason for the change from the 1 wipe away and the 1 rushing river to 2 rivers?

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2 Crypt, I'd run 3 Needle as well, over either the Grips or Predators, depending on what you predict the metagame is going to be.

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Originally Posted by MULocke

Daze is honestly terrible here. For one thing, they have 3-4 mana past turn 1, so it becomes useless there.
Also, they run simian spirit guide. They can play around daze and even trick you into playing one by playing into it. Good players don't get nailed by daze. Also, they only have 8 nonbasics, play moon effects that neuter wasteland, and run artifact mana. Wasteland is okay, but not great by any means.

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Well, Daze is obviously great in this matchup since DragonStompy tries to play a 3-Mana-Threat 1st Turn to make it hard for you from the beginning on.
It's actually the same as against Stax. Date is great since their start is always something like:

Ancient Tomb/City, Chalice

or

Ancient Tomb/City, Chrome Mox (Imprint SSG or another USEFUL card), Moon/Magus/3Sphere.

Daze shines here! They waste at least 4 handcards and Daze makes them all obsolete. Even if they resolve a Magus via pitching SSg, that would be already 5 handcards. But well, Magus is not the problem of this deck anyway.
But a Wasteland that wrecks 2 Mana simultaneously (Tomb/City) is good.

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This makes your condition for victory a force (with the obligatory blue card), a spell snare (on the play only), a few tarmogoyfs, and the necessary lands. I know we play cantrips, but well it seems a bit unlikely.

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That's how this kind of Threshold always wins...

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Again: Dragon Stompy is not unwinnable by any means, but you're kidding yourself if you decide that it's favored for you.

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But it's inconsistency is another factor that makes the matchup better for you. Threshold has at least got brianstorm-Ponder to ensure cardquality ti find the things mentioned above. Dragonstompy uses up it's hand resources pretty quick and then runs out of gas 8well, he can still topdeck you, but then I'd call it "bad luck").

If you are really afraid of Chalice-Aggro/Stax, you should try to include the Trygons into your Sideboard, they are acceptable against DS and kill Stax alone (watch out for Oblivion Rings, but I don't know whether Oblivion Rings are played as a regular cardchoice).

If I expect a thresh meta, what should I have for sideboard or the best UG threshold build?

I'm thinking UGb?

And can people really afford to have wastelands in a 3 color deck?

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Originally Posted by Hana, The Deadly Flower

If I expect a thresh meta, what should I have for sideboard or the best UG threshold build?

I'm thinking UGb?

And can people really afford to have wastelands in a 3 color deck?

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If you're boarding in against Thresh, board in additional threats like Shackles or Fledgling Dragons, Red Blasts and Krosan Grip. Also, your MVPs for these matches are Red Blasts and Grips. Also, a note; the way you play REB depends on the build of Thresh you're playing. If you're playing the Wasteland/Stifle version, hit cantrips with REB as well as Counterbalance and things like Control Magic, but when you get a chance, hit their cantrips before they draw into Top or a threat, and if you're playing the standard Counterbalance builds, use it to aid you in counter wars, hitting cards that gain the opponent massive card advantage like Predict, Fact or Fiction, and Counterbalance, and cards like Control Magic.

I wrote that horribly, and I'm too lazy to edit that post.

ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshplayers, please help me choose the ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshdeck for me. I have played mainly two lists, a pretty standard UGw with CB/top, and stife-wasteland-trash. I am also considering trying 4c-ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh for a build with thoughtseize. When I ask what deck is the best to play, the most common response I get is "It all depends on your meta". I can accept this, I really don't expect any deck to be strictly better than another, in that case there wouldn't be so many ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshbuilds around.

BUT, please then explain to me for which meta each build is preferred. In short, describe to what meta you would bring each of these decks:

1 - UGw, controllish counter/top
2 - UGr trash
3- UGwb, much like the 1, but with thoughtseize

Thank you.

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Originally Posted by Henrik

Treshplayers, please help me choose the treshdeck for me. I have played mainly two lists, a pretty standard UGw with CB/top, and stife-wasteland-trash. I am also considering trying 4c-ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh for a build with thoughtseize. When I ask what deck is the best to play, the most common response I get is "It all depends on your meta". I can accept this, I really don't expect any deck to be strictly better than another, in that case there wouldn't be so many treshbuilds around.

BUT, please then explain to me for which meta each build is preferred. In short, describe to what meta you would bring each of these decks:

1 - UGw, controllish counter/top
2 - UGr trash
3- UGwb, much like the 1, but with thoughtseize

Thank you.

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UGW is the worst of any thresh deck and should never be played in any situation.

UGR has two main viable variants, Canadian build and Moon Thresh. Depending on the metagame either could be good.

UGB has Thoughtseize, a major boon in almost every situation. But misses out on STP.

4 color should never be played imo, 5c is strictly better.

Go with UGR or 5c, and depending on the meta one might be better than the other.

Thanks for the reply happy gilmore, but don't think you answered my question and/or misunderstood the purpose of my question. I KNOW it's metadependent and I KNOW what cards in each deck motivates that specific colorsplash. What I seek the answer to is in WHAT metagame each deck is prefered.

Some comments and clarifications:

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Originally Posted by Happy Gilmore

UGW is the worst of any thresh deck and should never be played in any situation.

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This is a really weird proclamation imho. I have had big success with UGw-lists and I know many others have as well. I consider it a really versatile and strong deck.

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Originally Posted by Happy Gilmore

UGR has two main viable variants, Canadian build and Moon Thresh. Depending on the metagame either could be good.

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It is the canadian build I play and refer to as "trash". Maybe that's wrong. It does not matter what we call it, in what kind of meta does it have most success?

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Originally Posted by Happy Gilmore

UGB has Thoughtseize, a major boon in almost every situation. But misses out on STP.

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I know this. In what meta is it prefered?

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Originally Posted by Happy Gilmore

4 color should never be played imo, 5c is strictly better.

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Again, in what meta?

I would play 5c in every meta except those with a lot of control.

Strangly the life loss from various spells and City matters less in situations against agro and more against control matches where your opponent can take out half your life total in a couple of swings with some factories or a single Tarmogoyf.

I have always felt more prepared for control using UGR then any other build, the ability to burn out opponents is what makes this matchup winnable.

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Originally Posted by Henrik

BUT, please then explain to me for which meta each build is preferred. In short, describe to what meta you would bring each of these decks:

1 - UGw, controllish counter/top
2 - UGr trash
3- UGwb, much like the 1, but with thoughtseize

Thank you.

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Happy has the right idea.

Personally, I'd play Thrash in any metagame the only acception being 5c in a combo heavy metagame and even then, Thrash is still a great choice.

Interesting thoughts.

I don't know if I agree with Happy on the 5c, I would say that that land- and loam-MU's, or any other deck with recursion in general, and of wastelands especially, is a really hard MU to win? Of course I haven't played 5c myself yet, so I should probably just take your word for it until I have.

I am very pleased with Trash/Canadian however, it has become my favorites of the lists I have tried. I am having problems facing Rock-decks with Trash though. Do you think 5c or another deck would perform better against rock, or does it not make any difference?

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Originally Posted by Happy Gilmore

I would play 5c in every meta except those with a lot of control.

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Funny, you actually have no clue.

UGW's main advantage is that it has got the best landstill matchup of all variants thanks to Needles, Gaddock Teeg and the Counterbalance Engine.

5color Threshold is structured like UGw, but misses Gaddock Teeg and Needles. Sure, Thoughtseize is also a great card against landstill since breaking Standstills with Thoughtseize is... cool, but it doesn't shut off the removalspells and/or winconditions.

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I have always felt more prepared for control using UGR then any other build, the ability to burn out opponents is what makes this matchup winnable.

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Yeah, at least you figured out the advantage of the Red Splash: You can actually choose the playrole of being aggro or controlish. But with the canadian build, you are too fixiated on being aggro which is the reason why I played it only once.

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Originally Posted by Adan

Yeah, at least you figured out the advantage of the Red Splash: You can actually choose the playrole of being aggro or controlish. But with the canadian build, you are too fixiated on being aggro which is the reason why I played it only once.

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Actually, Canadian Thresh plays the control role incredibly well as the Stifle/Wasteland/Spell Snare package more then makes up for the lack of Countertop.

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Originally Posted by Whit3 Ghost

Actually, Canadian Thresh plays the control role incredibly well as the Stifle/Wasteland/Spell Snare package more then makes up for the lack of Countertop.

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You seem to be confused about the difference between control and disruption:

UGW is more controllish because you can the control the board much better than with other variants with Countertop and the most versatile removal in the format. In addition to that Thoughtseize helps as a preemtive measure for your game plan as well as giving you information about your opponents hand which is often underrated but very valuable with countertop.
Red with countertop simply trades some control elements for reach and more important another set of sideboard options.
With this in mind its not hard to see how 5c combines the best of all (for a price).

Stifle/Waste merely tries to disrupt the enemy. Disruption is temporary so you have to exploit it by finishing your enemy quickly. With every turn your disruption measures loose power. Stifling fetches becomes meaningless, Daze become bad instead of hardcounters. If you miss the window of opportunity for disruption at the beginning of the game you deck suddently become much worse than it usually is.

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Originally Posted by Adan

But with the canadian build, you are too fixiated on being aggro which is the reason why I played it only once.

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Ok. So what do you play now Adan, UGw or 5c?

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Originally Posted by Henrik

Ok. So what do you play now Adan, UGw or 5c?

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SwanThresh, but only for experimental reasons since my first build went pretty well.

Well, if you want to ask me which variant I'm going to play at the German Legacy Champs here... I could not give an answer yet. It's actually a gamble.

And it's fucking Clemens' fault!!!

UWb Cunning Landstill has established EVERYWHERE, even if I'd travel to America to visit you guys and play some tourney, I have to be prepared to play against it. Seriously, it became very popular. And the best Threshold variant to beat them would be either SwanThresh (reveal Swans for 4 + the combo) or UGw (Gaddock Teeg + CBalance = humiliation).

But I'm afraid of Ichorid (most retarded deck in existence) and Goblins at the same time.

So I guess I have to test with Clemens to see how the inclusion of Thoughtseize and the absence of Needles and Gaddock Teeg affect the Landstill matchup.

Additionally, I would have to test which Sideboardcards are effective against Ichorid (Crypts, Wheel of Sun and Moon, Jotun Grunt, Dueling Grounds, maybe even Propaganda, lol).

But at the moment, I like 5color threshold, but I would still love to know why Obfreeley has suddenly exchanged the 2 Portents he recommended with Predicts. They both serve a different role, but even though this sounds crazy, Portent allows you to play more aggressively (i.e. finding solutions or critters), supports Counterbalance a littlebit and maintains the strange manabase (it's solid, but still strange).

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Originally Posted by Shugyosha

You seem to be confused about the difference between control and disruption:

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Actually, I know exactly what I'm talking about.
The only matchup where you play the tempo role is against control decks.

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Onto the creatures: 8 is enough, it allows you to play the control role, which this deck does very well, and finish off quickly with a couple of low casting cost big-powered creatures

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8 Creatures is perfect for my controlish play style.

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Both statements are made by goobafish, the co-creator of this deck. I think he knows the difference.

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Originally Posted by Henrik

trash

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ThrashThrashThrashThrashThrash

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Originally Posted by Whit3 Ghost

The only matchup where you play the tempo role is against control decks.

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Just wanted to add a bit to his point. Every tempo deck relies on disrupting slower decks and making them even slower. If you are playing against a deck that estabilishes its game plan very quickly, you cannot keep on playing Stifle-Waste. An example of this is is Aether Vial. Although they have not dropped a real threat, Vial will screw your tempo disrupting spells immensely.

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Originally Posted by Whit3 Ghost

Actually, I know exactly what I'm talking about.
The only matchup where you play the tempo role is against control decks.

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Be it the co-founder of the deck or you. Preventing spells from being played for a limited amount of time by attacking the mana base is disruption, not control.

Only running 8 creatures and killing fast doesn't contradict itself. You only need 8 creatures because you don't need them early and after you successfully disrupted your opponents mana base you just drop creature(s) and get them through while they are trying to recover. Or do you want to tell me that the deck can control the board well into the lategame consistently?

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Originally Posted by Jaiminho

Just wanted to add a bit to his point. Every tempo deck relies on disrupting slower decks and making them even slower. If you are playing against a deck that estabilishes its game plan very quickly, you cannot keep on playing Stifle-Waste. An example of this is is Aether Vial. Although they have not dropped a real threat, Vial will screw your tempo disrupting spells immensely.

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Well if your opponent drops a Vial and he doesn't play goblins you can still use your stifles on said Vial. It at least buys some time to adjust your role to the situation. Also Wastelands can hinder them from playing non-creature spells.
Besides Vial I don't see that many competitive decks that are not slowed down by stifle on fetch on turn 1 whether it is Goyfsligh or Landstill. Even Aggro Loam can be caught off guard rarely if they keep a shitty hand.

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Originally Posted by Shugyosha

Be it the co-founder of the deck or you. Preventing spells from being played for a limited amount of time by attacking the mana base is disruption, not control.

Only running 8 creatures and killing fast doesn't contradict itself. You only need 8 creatures because you don't need them early and after you successfully disrupted your opponents mana base you just drop creature(s) and get them through while they are trying to recover. Or do you want to tell me that the deck can control the board well into the lategame consistently?

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The deck isn't a board control deck. No Threshold list can perfectly control the board into the lategame like ITF and Landstill can. However your lategame is just as good, if not better than that of any other Threshold list.

Adan, if Gaddock Teeg really is the bee's knees against Landstill, you can certainly board him in 5c Threshold. You're... allowed.

We cut the Portents for Predicts because we wanted to fit another way to generate card advantage into the deck. Our results with the change have been mixed. You're absolutely right that Portent helps stabilize the manabase, and is an all-around fantastic card, so it may be correct to keep them in.

The Predicts work better than a single Fact or Fiction, though!


I certainly recommend 5c Thresh to Henrik. I agree with Happy that it is superior to other builds in almost any metagame. The only other variant I would consider is Moon Thresh, which I would play if I knew that Blood Moon would be effective (basically, this means a sea of 4-color control decks).

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Originally Posted by Adan

But at the moment, I like 5color threshold

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Originally Posted by Obfuscate Freely

I certainly recommend 5c Thresh to Henrik.

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Cool, thank you for concrete recommendations. I will try it soon in the next local tourney.

Sorry I haven't been reporting lately. I've just been really busy.
I've won a few more shop tourneys with Swan Thresh, usually being in the Top 2 with some Dreadnought variant.
Last night I was actually Top 2 with some weird U/R Man-Land Stompy-Tempo build, and he needed to leave so we split in my favor.

Swan-Thresh is so controlling and so consistent, it pretty much always does what it is supposed to do ... win with Tarmogoyf and Counterbalance.
But it can combo! lol I'd say I combo in maybe 10-15% of my matches, just because a lot of the time you don't need to.
But damn, it is so great knowing you CAN. Because sometimes a huge horde of creatures or something you cannot stop are coming at you and Swan is your way out.

And I still play the one-of Misdirection, it has been so good to me, you rarely need it, but when you do, its there for you.
It is a ticket to a win against other Thresh lists, too. When there's a Goyf stand-off and they try to StP yours, Misdirection is the best spell you can play.
Same goes for when they try to get rid of your swan. I've Misdirected Warren Weirdings even.
He had a Lackey and I had a Goyf. But I wanted to start attacking, so I MisD the Weirding so now he has two 1/1s that do nothing. Swing!

played thrash at gencon, i top 4ed the first prelim with a fairly stock list with a slight tweak

i took the stock thrash list and did this

-1 wipe away
+1 island

board was
4 tormod's crypt
3 krosan grip
2 pithing needle
2 pyroblast
2 red elemental blast
2 pyroclasm

I don't know if wipe away was the correct card to cut but i do know that the 1 basic was tremendous all weekend, it allowed me to get out of blood moon by being able to continue cantripping into my rushing river, it was golden in the thrash mirror, and it was also solid against landstill

my board for the champs changed into
3 krosan grip
3 pithing needle
2 pyroblast
2 red elemental blast
2 engineered explosives
2 trygon predator

From extensive play I know the deck needs at least 1 basic island. Im debating if the correct card to cut is wipe away or wasteland, those seem to be the 2 best candidates

The blasts in the board were absolutely the nuts, and the trygon predator was a last minute addition that was stellar as well

Is one basic island really enough to do a whole lot? I know it gives you access to blue mana under moon effects, but unless you manage to find your one-of rushing river, that single blue source is all you get. Yes we run cantrips, but finding a one-of is hard, especially when blood moon is often followed or preceded by chalice for 1. I like the idea as a bit of resiliency, but I judt don't feel it's necessary. I had too many times this weekend where I just ripped lands in topdecking mode, and it always seems to come down to topdecking in the thresh mirror (so you're a bit worse off). Anyway, if it works I would suggest trying it in waste #4's slot to keep the build running smoothly at 18 lands, which I feel is correct.

On a side note, I was the other player who top4'd that first prelim. Sadly, I was not happy at all with my play in the main event and went 2-2 drop losing to goblins and the top8 elf list. I absolutely agree about the red blasts, but I've yet to have to sb predator in while in a tournament setting. I'm going to leave it in until it proves itself to me one way or the other.

If you are having troubles with Blood Moon and Magus, couldn't you run less Volcanic Islands for some basic Islands? Basically, mimic Moon Thresh's manabase with Wasteland. Magus is obviously less of an issue since you can burn it(unless there's a 3Sphere or CotV@1).

3 Delta
3 Strand
4 Tropical Island
3 Island
3 Wasteland
2 Volcanic Island

The problem with a singleton Island is when they drop a Moon on turn 1, before you can even fetch for it.

I don't know though, I don't play Thrash enough to know if 3 Islands stops the deck from working properly.

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Originally Posted by chokin

If you are having troubles with Blood Moon and Magus, couldn't you run less Volcanic Islands for some basic Islands? Basically, mimic Moon Thresh's manabase with Wasteland. Magus is obviously less of an issue since you can burn it(unless there's a 3Sphere or CotV@1).

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MoonThresh-Manabase + Wastelands = the suck.

You will be offcolor most of the time if you do so.

And actually, in his latest list, goobafish runs 2 Rushing River, which i also really like since it can take dead Wastelands and turn them into huge speedadvantage.

And postboard, you will maybe have some Blue Elemental Blasts to deal with Moon (this really depends on the SB).

actually gooba said that he switched back to the 1/1 split with wipe away and rushing river.

The 1 basic island helped a ton for me, if they dont get a turn 1 moon or chalice at 1, you will have an opportunity to get into the game before you get locked out permanently.

My manabase for tempo list is:

2 polluted
2 flooded
2 Wooded
3 Volcanic
4 Tropical
4 Wasteland
1 Island

I feel you really shouldn't take off any wastelands since they are crucial for your disruptive strategy.
Having more than one island in play really sucks and you'll certainly be colour-screwed. Playing one island is sufficent to deal with moon effects, you must only be careful to leave a fetchland to search it in response (obv not the foothills). I run 3 Hydroblast and 2 EE in the sideboard , so blood moon and chalice can be dealed with more efficiently than bouncing preboard.

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Originally Posted by Ironstickman

My manabase for tempo list is:

2 polluted
2 flooded
2 Wooded
3 Volcanic
4 Tropical
4 Wasteland
1 Island

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Why even run foothills, just go 3/3 on your other fetches.

True...XD
I guess that since it is a slight/recent/quick change towards these matchups I hadn't looked at it too carefully. Needle is not really an excuse for not playing the 3/3 split of island fetchlands anyway.
thanks!

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Originally Posted by Nihil Credo

18 lands

4 Mongoose
4 Goyf
3 Swans

4 Bstorm
4 Ponder
3 Top

4 Bolt
3 Chain

4 FoW
3 Cbalance
3 Daze

leaves two slots in the maindeck, one of which usually goes to the 4th Daze (although I personally don't like this with the combo in the deck, and I'm currently running 2x Spell Snare).

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EEEK, -1 Land, +1 Daze!!!

In those 2 slots, I either run 2 Portent or 2 Predict. I like them both.

By the way, you forgot Lightning Storm as well.

I run Daze #4 and Misdirection is those two slots and I have been EXTREMELY pleased with the results.
We have a very control heavy meta around here and having FoW #5 for counter-wars is SO GOOD.
Also, when playing against Death & Taxes and you cant move their StP to the only creature you can't kill directly (Silver Knight) that's pretty good, too.
I wouldn't run more than one, though. It is great when you see it, but if you don't no biggie.

Basically I see Misdirection as another way to protect Swan if you are comboing.
Whether you are moving their StP/Vindicate/whatever to your Goyf or one of their guys, or if it just FoW#5 for their FoW, it is great.



Anyhow! I played in a 19-man Tourney last night, made Top 2 and split with the 42-Land player. :D
In the Top4 I even had a mirror match, and we are talking literally card for card mirror match.
Got him 2-0 ! Combo game one, Goyfs + Burned him out with Lightning Storm game 2
I'll post some sort of a report when I get some more time.

Hey guys, what's the standard moon thresh list these days? I assume it plays 3 Magus MD instead of Blood Moon, and has no Fledgling Dragons. Anyone want to help me out?

Hi guys, just want to ask about the basic game plan vs aggro-loam? I haven't encountered them yet but I want to be prepared when that time comes, at least theoretically.

I'm running a gro-thrash build and topped a 26-man tournament with it. I included the dryad firstly because of jotun grunts that are very prevalent in our meta, and honestly because she is so fun to play hehe :wink:

Thanks.