Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)
Hey all,
My brother has shown some interest in Legacy. I've been looking for decks to get him into the format that would also be semi-cheap to build. Is it possible to build a semi-budget GB Nic Fit that's still competitive?
Here's a rough list I threw together for testing on Cockatrice:
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Maze of Ith
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Kitchen Finks
4 Forest
4 Swamp
1 Chainer's Edict
1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 Wall of Blossoms
SB: 1 Kitchen Finks
Now, before you rip into this, please note: I have NO IDEA what I'm doing building this deck. I have zero experience with this archetype and just kinda threw stuff together that seemed good. So here's some questions:
Is Pod better than GSZ? Should it run some combination of the two? GSZ seems a lot stronger than Pod in my eyes but I see a lot of pod lists lately so maybe I'm wrong.
How much hand disruption is appropriate? Obviously you need 4 cabal therapy but a few Hymns also seem right, especially since this is just GB.
How important is Liliana? Her price jumped up recently and she seems like a good card to cut to make the deck cheaper. However I could be vastly underrating her, I'm well aware she's insanely strong.
Is 17 creatures enough? Not enough? Too many?
Is four DRS correct? The lifegain seems super relevant against... well, anyone. This is a slow deck after all and delver is huge in our meta.
My sideboard probably needs work as well.
Thanks for the advice!
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)
Don't think you need 4 Deathrites. Maybe none. I could be wrong there. I would maybe think about a Prime Titan or a Grave titan. Grave titan closes a game and stabilizes very nicely
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)
There's already a prime time in there actually. Grave titan can't be fetched via GSZ but I can still see putting one in there. Maybe that's why pod is good? It fetches non-green bombs?
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bobmans
Amazing Bobmans. If you will believe it, I actually played a near-copy of that mainboard a while ago... Even the sorin and garruk were in there. Really cool you are experimenting with Collective Blessing as well, the card feels really powerful. In the end it just didn't really do it for me.. collective blessing was too often in my hand doing nothing... rector got stifled etc... The worst thing was humility. Every single time it landed, it actually worked against me. In other words the neat interactions look better on paper. My suggestion would be up the count of phyrexian tower to 2 (instead of 2nd savannah?), especially with rector in your list.
I am interested what direction your deck will go, keep us posted ^^
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kaminamina
There's already a prime time in there actually. Grave titan can't be fetched via GSZ but I can still see putting one in there. Maybe that's why pod is good? It fetches non-green bombs?
Ah yes now I see. Your titan doesn't really get you anything good though. And Grave Titan can't be GSZ'D but you can find him with top out something
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jobdevries
Amazing Bobmans. If you will believe it, I actually played a near-copy of that mainboard a while ago... Even the sorin and garruk were in there. Really cool you are experimenting with Collective Blessing as well, the card feels really powerful. In the end it just didn't really do it for me.. collective blessing was too often in my hand doing nothing... rector got stifled etc... The worst thing was humility. Every single time it landed, it actually worked against me. In other words the neat interactions look better on paper. My suggestion would be up the count of phyrexian tower to 2 (instead of 2nd savannah?), especially with rector in your list.
I am interested what direction your deck will go, keep us posted ^^
Cool, thnx. i suppose a 2nd Tower would up the chances of actually being able to use it on a vet or rector, but it seems horrible if you draw both of them during a game.
I really like Collective Blessing, it just makes all the tokens just beefy. Expecially with deathtouch, lifelink and flying. Humility is kind of a nonbo in that sense. I think that for this build also The Abyss and Nether Void are a bit underwhelming. Perhaps i will replace them for some more hate like Choke. Also i am thinking to have a mainboard replacement for Humility. Something different. I have been looking for some other (fun) enchantments and came across the following:
Debtors’ Knell
Angelic Destiny
Grave Pact
Eldrazi Conscription
Primeval Bounty
Exquisite Blood
Primal Vigor / Parallel Lives
City of Solitude
Deadbridge Chant
Dueling Grounds
Lurking Predators
Runed Halo
Worship
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)
I've moved away from BUG for now, Junk just seems a lot stronger overall. The only thing I really miss is the Glen-Elendra Archmage. I've only played one matchup vs miracles and I don't know if it's supposed to be as bad as it felt, but they had a terminus everytime I had anything even remotely going. And without a sure way to kill Jace, he slowly took over the game in both games I played.
Creatures: 25
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
3 Voice of Resurgence
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Wall of Roots
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Spike Feeder
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Shriekmaw
1 Thragtusk
1 Archangel of Thune
Instants/Sorcs: 6
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Green Sun's Zenith
Other: 7
3 Birthing Pod
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Garruk Relentless
Lands: 22
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windsweapt Heath
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
Sideboard: 15
3 Duress
2 Engineered Plague
2 Abrubt Decay
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Yixlid Jailor
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Sun Titan
1 Orzhov Pontiff
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
[SLAYER]chaos
I've moved away from BUG for now, Junk just seems a lot stronger overall. The only thing I really miss is the Glen-Elendra Archmage. I've only played one matchup vs miracles and I don't know if it's supposed to be as bad as it felt, but they had a terminus everytime I had anything even remotely going. And without a sure way to kill Jace, he slowly took over the game in both games I played.
Creatures: 25
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
3 Voice of Resurgence
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Wall of Roots
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Spike Feeder
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Shriekmaw
1 Thragtusk
1 Archangel of Thune
Instants/Sorcs: 6
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Green Sun's Zenith
Other: 7
3 Birthing Pod
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Garruk Relentless
Lands: 22
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windsweapt Heath
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
Sideboard: 15
3 Duress
2 Engineered Plague
2 Abrubt Decay
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Yixlid Jailor
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Sun Titan
1 Orzhov Pontiff
The miracles matchup is very rough, for BUG pod as well. Pithing Needle is a good card against them, it hits jace and top. The conflict with pernicious deed isn't that bad either, because if you have their tops shut down, you don't really need to worry about counterbalance as much, and it still deals with angel tokens. Upping your GSZ count might help so that you have access to more thruns.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)
The hard part about Miracles as a deck for (most) varieties of Nic Fit is that their philosophical goal of a game is basically the same as ours. They want to sit back, make a bunch of mana, and do broken things with it. To beat Miracles, one must attack on one of two planes:
-) Uncounterable threats: see also Slaughter Games or anything with Boseiju in play. Creatures are less valuable than spells, because Terminus can and will happen. Sigarda and Thrun do some of the lord's work while they are out, but you can't expect them to remain in play. Miracles functions by using its countersuite to protect itself from things it can't handle with board control, and then the StP/Snapcaster/Terminus package to cover the board aspect. If Miracles has an Achilles' Heel, its uncounterable instants and sorceries.
-) Pretend you're playing a mirror. Not even kidding. If you want to win the mirror, you bulk up your list and make it, frankly, increasingly EDH-like. More combos and potent, game-ending synergies. Bigger, nastier dudes. I was once asked, "what do you do if everyone is playing Broodmate Dragon?" My immediate response: "play Avenger of Zendikar." The same philosophy functions here. Force them to have the Terminus or die immediately. Then do it again. And again, until they succumb.
The concern with the latter approach, obviously, is that it tends to weaken your deck against other archetypes. But that's something that you have to weigh vs how much you want to beat Miracles.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)
Hello All,
With the current meta (driven by U/X/X Blade, Miracle, BUG Delver & Shardless, and a few combo) I think it is time to slam a good old "Punishing fire" list to deal with all those planeswalkers & small buddies (Jace, Lili & friends) .
Based on the hard work of a lot of famous nicfit posters, I've spent the last few weeks on fine tuning a pure control list to grind this meta.
Punishing Story
4 Verdant catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained mire
1 Badlands
1 Taiga
3 Bayou
1 Phyrexian tower
1 Volrath's stronghold
4 Grove of the Burnwillow
3 Swamp
1 Mountain
2 Forest
4 Veteran explorer
1 Dryad militant
2 Eternal witness
1 Scavenging ooze
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Sensei's divining top
3 Pernicious deed
3 Punishing fire
4 Cabal therapy
4 Green sun's zenith
3 Abrupt decay
1 Maelstrom pulse
Sideboard
3 Surgical extraction
3 Thoughtseize
1 Kitchen Finks
3 Red elemental blast
2 Slaughter games
1 Krosan grip
2 Golgari charm
Here are some general comments and choices:
1) 23 lands
This deck is mana hungry. I don't want to waste a zenith slot for a small ramp buddy (such as sylvan ranger) against Miracle and other control deck.
Also this fix a BIG issue I had with "black" as in many games against combo, I would have killed to have a "black" land in hand to play a turn 1 TS or Therapy.
12 was unfortunately on the low end and the addition of another bayou just feels better. Yet, we have to reach the magical number which is 14, but this is already decent.
Not to mention that Liliana is also easier to cast on turn 3 in match-up where it matters.
TIPS
3 swamps/2 forest -> to be able to cast a liliana of the therapy/explorer combo (if you have landed an explorer first.)
2) 4 Sensei
I was a strong proponent for playing only 3 in Nic Fit as a general feeling; but in this shell, you definitely need 4. There are games where you have it and there are others... I was losing too much % against BUG without the 4th.
3) 3 Punish & 3 A.D & 1 Maelstrom.P
Thanks to Honey for this split (and also @Jund thread).
A mix balance for an unknown meta. But as a general feeling, I would rather keep the deck at 3 punishing fire. Your fetchable turn 1 & 2 colors are green/black or black/green. Furthermore, don't forget that punishing fire without grove is just an overcosted shock...
Maelstrom pulse is your 7th targetted removal, half punishing, half decay, as it tends to bring more value in the long run; not only because it can hit some permanents than decay (& obviously punishing) cannot, but also in some circumstances (non zero amount of times), it creates virtual card advantage hitting more than one copy of a permanent in play (double goyfs, tokens etc...)
4) 2 Eternal Witness & 2 Towers.
As enlightened by Tao in its primer, game 1, these tools ensure you I.N.E.V.I.T.A.B.I.L.I.T.Y against fair.decks.
Be it a Thragtusk, a Huntmaster, a Deed, a targetted removal every turn. Period.
Slow as hell, sure. But didn't we say that this deck is a pure control one ?
5) 3 Liliana and no other planeswalker.
Hard choice?
Yes, as I am a true lover of Garruk, PH and Vraska (more uncommon), but unfortunately, they are not as powerful as the rest of the deck (EW & 2 towers mainly).
Nevertheless, they could be a good choice as a one-of in the sideboard to lesser to a certain extend the gravehate we will have to cope with game 2 & 3.
6) Creatures: stock list & 1 outsider ?
I won't go over each one but in a JUND shell, I think this package is appropriate.
I'll focus on my outsider.
Dryad Militant. Wow.
What the hell is he thinking ? Bad synergy with half of the deck ???
Yes.
But, we are the one who plays it and it is a trump in several MU:
- 2 turns faster than Ooze and has a better inherited hate in the MU you are gszing for him.
- Storm has to play a longer game and cannot always go for a T2 kill with him on the battlefield
- Small clock & value ->Who said savannah lion powah ? Yes. 2/1 for 1 mana
- Fuck SCM and DRS ping activation ? Yes, at least, he would eat 1 removal that cannot be flashbacked thereafter.
- Dredge ? Wait...what the hell...(player lost)
After a lot of tests, this small b.stard has just improved by a few margin some MU and by a large margin, others.
7) Sideboard
Copy/paste for Honey
For now, I find this sideboard to be pretty stock.
Due to the resurgence of burn.deck, I have replaced the one-of "Choke" by a "Kitchen Fink".
Happy to discuss.
Cheers Nic Fitters !
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)
^Thanks for sharing
Personally I'd like to fit in Garruk Relentless somewhere. Of all the garruks, he's in my opinion the best. Cheap to play, kills stuff, puts bears into play and can search for creatures. Not to mention how great he works with deed (well all PWs does I guess)
Also, why not play 4 Punishing Fire? Feels like you always want to draw that card (well except against combo, but that's why we got a sideboard).
I like Witness a lot in this deck. 2 seems like a fine number
How does the dryad punish dredge decks though? Since he doesnt remove creatures
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)
Multiple PFires are useless, and with 4 Tops you'll hit one.
@Ralf: why not run a copy of Urborg if you've been struggling with the black costs? Also, with the increased black focus of that list, what are your thoughts on the viability of some number of Hymn to Tourachs?
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)
Having a Pirme Titan to get the two towers to protect from terminus/STP vs Miracles is actually really good too.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)
@ Litenkatt: It has a great impact on their kill. When dryad is out, they have to go "combat" and cannot kill you through Dread return shenanigans (As dread return is removed by dryad; their therapies are also removed). Unless they are pretty fast and manage to put 4 bridge from below + many ichorid in the same turn, the game is yours.
I have tested 4 punishing and to be honest, as Arian said it, you'll find one eventually. Maelstom Pulse as its devoted slot as a great "catch'all" where punish tends to lack.
Who has never died facing 2 topdecked goyfs turn after turn...Really a bad feeling. Not to mention greedy S&T players who want to protect their sneak attack from discard by casting it T3 without another red source available to win on the spot !
If you really want to fit in "Garruk relentless", I guess your best shot is to replace Thrun by him. They are somehow fulfilling the same "role" for MU you want them (i.e threat hard to remove).
And as I don't run "Kessig Wolf Run" anymore, he could be the better choice. Hard to say without a deep testing against Miracle and other control/mid range decks.
Thrun = uncounterable, fetchable via GSZ (virtually 5 thruns in my deck), removable by terminus/ sac effect (edict, IB, Lili)
Garruk= counterable, not fetchable (its main liability in my point of view), does not fear terminus nor sac effect, could be removed once flipped by AD
EDIT: Groves are like wasteland. They stay in hands until you have a punishing to get back (or you are dying for a green source). Thus, in any case, you'll make your CA. Kill a dude, get it back with groves and watch it die the very next turn to a wasteland your competitive opponent would have spared in case of...
Remember G2 & 3 that Punishing is not an activated ability so that you can, for example, still get back your punishing fire with an extirpate on the stack.
@ Arianrhod: To be able to cast (odds> 90 %) a TS or a Therapy, by turn 1, game 2 or 3 you need 14 black sources. With 12, I felt sometimes to have more mulligans than wanted. Unfortunately, Urborg does not increase that number (I would stay at 13 black sources). However, it could help a bit more casting Lili by turn 3.
This is only a fact that really counts when facing combo, where you would desperately need to discard one of their combo piece before turn 2/3.
Dryad mitigates those numbers fairly well as the odds of dying T2 is likely to happen only when you get paired against Storm (Belcher is a fringe deck). Other combo.deck are usually a bit slower.
Now, I could test and see the impact of having only 15 green sources instead of 16 (-1 bayou / +1 Urborg). I guess this is not an issue for T1 explorer or T2 GSZ, but I could see some use cases where casting an EW by turn 3 could be clunky (and to compare with the likeliness to cast Lili on turn 3).
If anyone is interested in a good article about deckbuilding mana sources to consistently cast your spell have a look:
The following is a very good one & written by Frank Karsten. Don't be shy, Maths could be overlooked, just stare at the sheets !!! (If not use hypergeometric function in excel)
http://www.channelfireball.com/artic...t-your-spells/
And based on this article, to consistently cast Hymn by turn 2, we should have 20 black sources...
@ Megadeus: Primeval is in my list already. If this was not a question, but an affirmation I could not agree more. Primeval kicks ass. Unfortunately you cannot protect him the very turn you fetch for the 2 towers as they are coming tapped. But if you are lucky enough to untap with him still on the battlefield, Mass is said.
Arian has already summed it up in a previous post. We/I don't kill with Primeval...He always dies. But I do kill with Thragtusk/Huntmaster loop.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)
Huh. I guess they liked my list so much they had to post it 5 times.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck..._num=8&limit=8
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jbone2016
Congrats !
I would enjoy a report ! Even a brief one !
Cheers,
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jbone2016
That seems unlikely to ever top8. Didn't you get deck checked once? pls no banerino trollerino or responderino Kappa
(damnit, one of the five isn't fucked up :(
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ralf
You can also pay multiple RED when you use grove (pay red, surgical, pay red again and you have screwed the surgical/extirpate effect). Properly played, a punishing fire is very very hard to remove.
No you can't. There's one triggered ability, and you choose to pay red or not to pay red as a part of the resolution of that ability.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
firebadmattgood
No you can't. There's one triggered ability, and you choose to pay red or not to pay red as a part of the resolution of that ability.
And if you had a second Grove (or w/e can get you opponent to gain life) activation on red after Surgical went on the stack, won't there be a new triggered ability coming on the stack on top of Surgical?
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
firebadmattgood
No you can't. There's one triggered ability, and you choose to pay red or not to pay red as a part of the resolution of that ability.
Yes my bad, you need a second grove to make another trigger.
Thanks !
Rulings
01/10/2009 Punishing Fire's triggered ability triggers only if it's already in your graveyard at the time an opponent gains life. For example, you can cast it in response to a spell or ability that will cause an opponent to gain life. In that case, Punishing Fire will resolve first, so it will be in the graveyard by the time the opponent gains life. However, if you wait until an opponent actually gains life and then cast Punishing Fire, you won't be able to return it to your hand at that time.
01/10/2009 You choose whether to pay {R} as the triggered ability resolves.
01/10/2009 If Punishing Fire has left your graveyard by the time its triggered ability resolves, you may still pay {R}, but you won't return it to your hand. This is true even if Punishing Fire has left your graveyard and returned to it by the time its triggered ability resolves.
