[Deck] Merfolk

Standstill is never dead. Yes, you need to be ahead, but saying it's "dead in any match that has a good turn one play" means that you are never expecting to get ahead on board, which is completely ridiculous. I would say if you went turn 1 Aether Vial and they went turn 1 Delver of Secrets, you are ahead, and that's the best turn 1 play in the format. I would much rather have Standstill in that situation than Chalice of the Void and Cavern of Souls. It also shows a pretty simplistic understanding of how to beat a deck, and suggests to me that you'd rather have a silver bullet to beat all of your opponents rather than actually play Magic against them. Which is fine, but if that's the case then I don't know why you'd choose to play a deck that has traditionally been very interactive. The only deck that I've found Standstill to be literally dead against is Dredge, and that is because they can beat you without having to ever cast a spell, so it definitely gets sideboard out there.

As for Delver decks, if you ever get ahead on cards you will win. Hence, Standstill. If you can counter their Delver of Secrets then there is no way that they can race you once you start vomiting guys onto the board. Tarmogoyf and Stoneforge Mystic from a deck with Islands are some of the things I fear the least, because it means that they spent a turn (or in SFM's case, two turns) doing something that doesn't interact with my guys. Still worthy of a FOW in certain situations, but not always a must-counter.

The other biggest thing that Standstill does for me is it greatly decreases the cost of Force of Will. It means we don't have to board out Force of Will in all of the fair matchups like a Delver deck would, because we don't care about the card disadvantage nearly as much as we have a way to recoup it. That is a huge advantage in Delver matchups or against any blue decks that feel like they can cut their FOW (had a Miracles player ask me afterwards if he was right to do that) because it gives us the perfect tempo card that absolutely answers anything they can do, and they have voluntarily cut theirs.

Saying that Hatch built his Merfolk deck to beat Miracles is like saying that I tuned my Belcher deck to beat Goblins. I can assure you, if you want to beat Miracles, Standstill and Aether Vial go a long, long way. When I watched Hatch play his first round matchup, he lost the game when he actually featured a string of man lands. The games he won, Josh kept speculative hands and didn't get there and Greg took advantage of it by beating him quickly before he could recover. He played no cards aside from Tidal Warrior that I did not play in the two games that he won. Standstill is the card that lets you win the long game since Miracles is a curious control deck in that it doesn't actually have any real card advantage cards. You can take advantage of that with man lands or with Aether Vial, but Vial is going to be better since you have ~20 creatures in your deck, as opposed to 8 man lands at most. I actually think Hatch's deck would have been many orders of magnitude better if he had simply fit in Aether Vial, since it means he could have had both Vial and a lot of man lands to really make Standstill a beating. But ask anyone, Hatch included, and they will tell you that Greg Hatch is the best at going deep. Which is helpful when looking for new or forgotten tech, but not helpful when trying to pick a "standard" deck.

I will tell you right now, if you battle against a superior combo player, simply having counterspells in your hand, no matter how many, will not always let you get there. It is a positive matchup against poor players, but against a good combo player it is even to unfavorable. If you face it three or four times in a day you will lose twice, and that's at least once too many. Chalice of the Void certainly helps, but it does very little against Show and Tell-based combo decks. At least Ethersworn Canonist blanks all of their defensive counterspells. I won the two combo matchups that I did due to having a white splash, and I lost to Belcher because I did not see any Force of Will over two opening hands and a mulligan. Which likely means I misplayed, but I thought he would slow down a little post-board and give me time to cast Canonist. That was the only match all day that I wished the Envelop was a Blue Elemental Blast, as I had the Envelop in hand with an open mana but he never cast a Rite of Flame or Seething Song, and BEB on Manamorphose would have destroyed him. I lost game 1 and won games 2 and 3 half of my rounds. You can take issue with my main deck, but I can assure you that my sideboarding won me a lot of my matchups. This is all mitigated by the fact that most combo players are not good at interacting, but you cannot build your deck assuming your opponent is going to misplay because it will leave you vulnerable to a truly good combo player. I say that having played combo virtually my entire Magic career.

Lastly, I'm not sure what use your information about a Modern deck are to this discussion. It's a completely different format and the Merfolk deck in that format is positioned differently and must play a more aggro role due to no Force of Will or Standstill. If it's a format where Master of Waves is a game-breaking play, it is not applicable to this discussion. We can draw inspiration from similar decks in other formats (and similar decks in the same format), but to say "this was a totally important card in some games I played in a Modern tournament" means almost nothing in a format with Deathrite Shaman, Stoneforge Mystic, Sensei's Divining Top, Glimpse of Nature, Dark Ritual, Hymn to Tourach, Golgari Grave-Troll...

Playing this deck as a Zoo deck with counterspells rather than burn is likely a mistake, simply because your creatures are not as good as Zoo's creatures on their own, and making them good involves playing into sweepers. I would much, much rather play this deck like RUG with more creatures and actual card advantage and a strong late game than like Zoo with Dazes.

Is it possible to "live the dream" and build a list with both Chalice of the Void and Standstill?

Something along these lines:

Lands [20]
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Mutavault
2 Mishra's Factory
10 Island

Creatures [23]
4 Master of the Pearl Trident
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Phantasmal Image
3 True-Name Nemesis

Spells [17]
4 Force of Will
4 AEther Vial
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Standstill
2 Dismember

Sideboard [15]
3 Submerge
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Flusterstorm/Swan Song
1 Spell Pierce
1 Dismember
1 Chill

This would be very fun to play, actually. Playing no Dazes allows us to play less Islands, and fit those 6 man-lands.

That's probably how I would build it if I were so inclined, though I don't know a whole lot of situations where I have an active Vial that I would rather play Chalice over Standstill. Combo is probably one, but even there playing a Standstill is still a strong play assuming both Force of Will and Daze exist in your deck. And of course post-board I'd rather have a hate bear on my second turn since it both disrupts them and starts the clock.

What I mean by that is, the only time I'd feel comfortable tapping out on turn 2 against a combo deck without Daze in my deck is when I have an active Aether Vial, and the only situation I'd likely slam Chalice/Standstill on turn 2 is, again, when I have an active Aether Vial as Chalice would cut off further Aether Vials and with a Standstill in play you have to have or be able to generate a tangible advantage under it which takes either multiple man lands or one Vial.

The issue is with Standstill is you need to be ahead to gain real use from it. That's really hard to do in a game where you can face a turn one Delver into turn two DRS, At that point Vial is not fast enough and anything you have on the table might not be enough. This is not even an uncommon situation with Team being the most common placing deck in the format. I just feel like you need the exact meta to play it, otherwise there are much better options.

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

The issue is with Standstill is you need to be ahead to gain real use from it. That's really hard to do in a game where you can face a turn one Delver into turn two DRS, At that point Vial is not fast enough and anything you have on the table might not be enough. This is not even an uncommon situation with Team being the most common placing deck in the format. I just feel like you need the exact meta to play it, otherwise there are much better options.

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For one, most BUG Delver decks would lead with Deathrite Shaman over Delver because it leads to more explosive second-turn plays, as well as allowing them to play around Daze/Spell Pierce more effectively. For another, Deathrite Shaman does not do much when no one is casting spells. I would take Vial over Delver and DRS any day.

The other main point is that they are exactly as likely to have Delver of Secrets in their opening hand as we are to have Force of Will. If you Force their Delver of Secrets, then play Vial into Standstill they will be incredibly far behind.

Well, Daze isn't quite as good when you don't run Wasteland, and forces us to play 11~12 minimum Islands. The extra man-lands are good with Standstill to break the symmetry when you don't have that AEther Vial opener.

Actually, most blue decks won't always have Delver or Deathrite Shaman openers, so Brainstorm/Ponder, or even just a Fetch -> Pass are common. On the play, if you can get a turn 2 Standstill just with a Mutavault or Mishra's Factory, you'll be in a good spot, forcing them to get Wasteland or break the enchantment.

The extra AEther Vials are really irrelevant if it should come after turn 2. The only time I would want to cast a second Vial when I get both in my opener, or my first gets Abrupt Decayed.

Chalice is there mostly to blank spot removal and cantrips, so I think that list could work. Spot removal is the bane of this deck (a little less since TNN was printed). Probably the only deck I wouldn't want to cast Chalice of the Void is against Jund w/ Punishing Fires.

Against a deck that plans to beat you with spot removal, Kira is much better because it provides a clock at the same time. Both can get Abrupt Decayed but Kira forces them to go after Kira with the Abrupt Decay which draws heat away from your lords. I also generally agree with you on the second Vial point, as most of the time the extra ones get shuffled back with my Brainstorms, though having multiple Vials is also very powerful in that you can outplay your opponent's soft removal like Punishing Fire and Lightning Bolt with enough lords and can just in general pump fake them and make them misplay. It's also very handy to have Vials on different settings as it means that raising a Vial to 3 isn't condemning you to actually casting your other creatures. I would say I absolutely never want to cast the fourth Vial, and virtually never want to cast the third one, but I'd cast the second one probably 40% of the time. In either case, Chalice on 1 on the second turn condemns all of your Vials to be dead draws from that point on, whereas they could at least have some utility without the Chalice in play. In my deck, it also turns off your ability to Brainstorm them away and draw more creatures.

It should also be noted that spot removal is much, much worse against a deck with Standstills.

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Originally Posted by benthetenor

Standstill is never dead. Yes, you need to be ahead, but saying it's "dead in any match that has a good turn one play" means that you are never expecting to get ahead on board, which is completely ridiculous. I would say if you went turn 1 Aether Vial and they went turn 1 Delver of Secrets, you are ahead, and that's the best turn 1 play in the format. I would much rather have Standstill in that situation than Chalice of the Void and Cavern of Souls. It also shows a pretty simplistic understanding of how to beat a deck, and suggests to me that you'd rather have a silver bullet to beat all of your opponents rather than actually play Magic against them. Which is fine, but if that's the case then I don't know why you'd choose to play a deck that has traditionally been very interactive. The only deck that I've found Standstill to be literally dead against is Dredge, and that is because they can beat you without having to ever cast a spell, so it definitely gets sideboard out there.

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You started Standstill defense with "Standstill is never dead.", then went ahead and listed examples when it is dead if we don't, somehow, get ahead and ended it with example when it is literally dead.
You finished 6-3 with Standstill version, which is nice but that result is added to other so-so finishes that Standstill versions did in the last few years (searched for results, mediocre at best), unlike Chalice or regular versions which top8-ed or even won (at least) 100 player tournaments. I would love to play Standstill but it isn't time for it, unfortunately, and also to be proven wrong by you or any other folkstill player with relevant result in a big tournament.
Chalice is a silver bullet that dismantles 30-50% of your opponents cards in certain decks, yes I like that kind (when my card trades with many of theirs, that seems like half a victory), while Standstill demands commitment to make it good and even then your opponent can wait for you to have 7 cards in your hand and play Brainstorm on your end step, which will make you discard, unless you had a god draw with Vial, Standstill and nothing got countered/destroyed.

I personally don't care for Miracles, Show and Tell or other combo decks when my maindeck have Spell Pierce and Vendillion Clique, in addition to Daze, Cursecatcher, Force, Vial and Cavern. My deck loses to other things.

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Originally Posted by FANAttIC

You started Standstill defense with "Standstill is never dead.", then went ahead and listed examples when it is dead if we don't, somehow, get ahead and ended it with example when it is literally dead.
You finished 6-3 with Standstill version, which is nice but that result is added to other so-so finishes that Standstill versions did in the last few years (searched for results, mediocre at best), unlike Chalice or regular versions which top8-ed or even won (at least) 100 player tournaments. I would love to play Standstill but it isn't time for it, unfortunately, and also to be proven wrong by you or any other folkstill player with relevant result in a big tournament.
Chalice is a silver bullet that dismantles 30-50% of your opponents cards in certain decks, yes I like that kind (when my card trades with many of theirs, that seems like half a victory), while Standstill demands commitment to make it good and even then your opponent can wait for you to have 7 cards in your hand and play Brainstorm on your end step, which will make you discard, unless you had a god draw with Vial, Standstill and nothing got countered/destroyed.

I personally don't care for Miracles, Show and Tell or other combo decks when my maindeck have Spell Pierce and Vendillion Clique, in addition to Daze, Cursecatcher, Force, Vial and Cavern. My deck loses to other things.

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Let me simplify it for you.

Standstill is a bad card to cast when you are at a disadvantaged position. When it is neutral, you have man-lands to draw into making it a good play, and when you are ahead it will force the opponent to break the Standstill. In the latter two situations, Standstill is a good card. In the first one, it is not.

I was talking specifically about Dice_Box's post, which was this:

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

Standstill helps if you are ahead or can get ahead, that means it's dead in any match that has a good turn one play. I like the card but I do not love it. I think I would rather Chalice.

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His assertion, that Standstill is a dead card against any deck that has a good turn one play, is ridiculous. For one, if we ever land an Aether Vial and then play a Standstill, we will eventually outpace any board position from any other deck. For another, no one is suggesting that your opponent plays a Delver and a Tarmogoyf and then we just slam Standstill and wait for them to concede. We have many, many creatures that we can put into play and then top off with a Standstill. We can get a Lord in play and start making Mutavault drops. We can Submerge their Delver of Secrets and then drop the Standstill. My point is, if the opponent makes a good turn one play and nothing else, there's nothing stopping us from dropping creatures every turn until we have an advantage on board and then capping it off with a Standstill to further cement our position. It literally requires no more support than that, and it doesn't harm our ability to play other good one-drop cards like Spell Pierce and Swan Song and Blue Elemental Blast and Brainstorm like Chalice on 1 does. On top of all of that, given that we play more creatures than most of the format (and some that cannot be beaten like True-Name Nemesis), it is far, far more likely that we will be ahead on board in any given game than behind.

I was 6-3 only because I got bad information on when the tournament started. I did not lose three rounds. 6-2 is a more accurate picture of how the deck actually performed, which would have put me in striking distance for the top 8 going into the final round. At least one 7-2 did, in fact, top 8 the tournament. That's all completely irrelevant, as is weighing the merits of a deck based solely upon results. If you really like what Chalice of the Void at 1 does for you, then why are you not playing a deck that revolves around Chalice of the Void? Maybe one that can cast it on turn 1? I do not like it in Merfolk because it has dis-synergy that ultimately hurts the deck (by creating dead draws) and puts you on auto-pilot, meaning that you start to blame the cards when you lose as opposed to your actual ability. The reason I most dislike it is because it is completely unnecessary, as it improves already good matchups (mostly combo and Delver decks) and does nothing to solve bad ones (Jund, Maverick, Death and Taxes, etc.). It is a crutch, and it will hurt, rather than help, Merfolk in the long run.

I don't play Chalice in the main (3 in the sideboard are brutal and good slot spending, for me), just made a comment that I would rather play Chalice than Standstill.
I played folkstill before Delver and Shaman got printed. Wasn't impressed then, not going to play it now.
My current version works and I have no need for change at this moment.

I'm not telling you to play Standstill. I don't think it would be possible for me to care less what you or anyone else decided to play. The only reason I even posted here was because all I've seen over the last few months has been people saying things like "standstill is garbage" and "Cavern of Souls needs to be in the deck" and "wasteland is terrible" and "whatever Greg Hatch is doing is perfect" when Greg himself said on this very thread that he's not necessarily making the "correct" card choice, more searching for redundancy to make the deck as consistent as possible. All I'm trying to do is point out that a very traditional build of Merfolk is still very good in this metagame, and that some of the issues that people have (like losing to lots of spot removal or to Terminus) are all symptoms of having cut most of the non-creature spells for creature spells which pushes the deck in a different direction. If you are having trouble beating a deck full of Lightning Bolts and Swords to Plowshares and Abrupt Decay, it's likely because you cut one of the best cards we have against those cards, Standstill. It requires you to play a little more Magic and to push the game into situations where it's usable, but a) the plan is already to get a dominant board position and b) the reward is an absurdly powerful card that warps how your opponent plays and completely solves your issues. They have the same justification for Chalice of the Void when Kira already exists and plays much, much better with your actual game plan of developing your board with creatures and attacking the opponent. If you find yourself losing to sweepers, it's probably because cutting Aether Vial has greatly diminished your ability to ration your threats to outplay control players. People add in 4 more man lands and 4 Cavern of Souls and claim that that is the key to defeating Miracles whereas I was under the impression that that matchup was already insanely positive, mostly because they have a glacially slow clock and if they're relying on counterspells to defeat a creature deck, they will always lose.

The deck I posted is competitive in the current environment and has no significant issues with any decks in the format. It has bad matchups, but every deck does. It has no truly terrible matchups as it is built. It is that way because I play nothing but cards that are broadly powerful and have shown themselves to be effective in Legacy since their printing. Hell, if you cut the Brainstorms and replace them with 2 more 3 drops, the 3rd Spell Pierce and the 4th Standstill, and then switch the splash from white to black and squint enough, you're looking at the deck that Saito won GP Columbus with in 2010. You do not need to play narrow, crazy cards to win with Merfolk. That is my only point.

With Caverns and a playset of Nemesis no one needs to care about Swords, Bolt or Decay.
Putting Standstill aside, you chose to play only 2 TNN and only 18 merfolk which is not many to show for Adept, I did that mistake before.
Since you intend to durdle around with Brainstorm and Standstill that means you will have enough time to deploy any TNN you draw, and that is our best play once both players starts durdleing.
You dismantled the perfect monocolor manabase to splash for 4 white cards that are not even that great (or irreplaceable) and made it worse vs Stifle, Wasteland and Counterbalance (which should never matter vs regular merfolk deck).
Wish you good luck in your next Open and show us nonbelievers how it is done.

That is exactly the attitude that I'm talking about. If you don't like my white splash, switch it to 6 Islands, Relic of Progenitus and some other cards. Doesn't matter to me. I've found that Deathrite Shaman is a weakness that requires a fairly robust answer, which is why I play Submerge to make it irrelevant early and Rest in Peace to ensure it will not be a factor late. Relic has not been enough. And you cannot beat ANT and TES reliably without attacking it from multiple angles. But you do just whatever you'd like. My manabase is fine, and I have literally never had Wasteland or Stifle been an issue for me in any of my games either in the tournament or in the year previous that I've been playing Merfolk with Brainstorms. I also suggest that the Merfolk mana base is far from being perfect and never has been, given that the only gripe people always have with the deck is that you sometimes have trouble casting UU cards on turn two in a mono-colored deck. But regardless, my manabase is exactly as good as Saito's was, because it's the exact same. It's pretty trivial to play around Stifle (and is also often a tactic of mine to make them use their Stifle on an otherwise useless fetchland at an inopportune time to steal tempo) and Mutavault is the Wasteland target ninety-nine times in a hundred even when Tundra is sitting on the table. Additionally, I get late game power by being able to shuffle dead cards away with Brainstorm and I get the ability to ensure that I hit my Islands on time if I need to. I get protection from removal in Standstill and I get a curve that is statistically correct rather than being top-heavy and land-light as most builds of Merfolk have been, playing 6+ three drops and only 20-22 lands. I have tested all number of Merfolk (from 23 to 18) and never had any issues with Silvergill Adept at 18 creatures. I have also not had any issue being the beatdown; RUG, for instance, only plays 12 creatures and is often seen to be the aggro deck in most matchups, so 18 and 4 Mutavaults should be more than enough. Brainstorm also makes my sideboard cards more effective since I'm much more likely to see them than in a Merfolk deck without Brainstorms. I'm not really sure what your point is about Counterbalance since a white splash should have no effect on susceptibility to Counterbalance, but that is literally never a card that I've ever had any fear of, and it's never beaten me in over a year of testing and playing. And yes, I chose to play 2 True-Name Nemesis main with a third in the side. I have had all 4 main (+ 1 Phantasmal Image), I've had 3 main and one side, I've had 2 main and 2 side. Since it's spoiling to the present day, it's always been a much, much better sideboard card than a main-deck card. It's an important one since it improves a lot of bad matchups, but it's also a liability in other matchups where it adds to the curve and slows the deck down. Which is the perfect definition of a sideboard card. If you think having 4 True-Name Nemesis and 4 Cavern of Souls means that you don't need to worry about spot removal, then I am not sure why you're not simply playing a deck that focuses entirely on True-Name Nemesis. You could entirely blank all of their spot removal rather than letting them turn their otherwise dead Lightning Bolts and Swords to Plowshares into Time Walks against you.

I would ask you to leave the attitude out of this discussion. I'm not attacking you by putting forward my own ideas on the deck, and if you cannot defend your arguments logically then that speaks for itself.

"Let me simplify it for you"
"I don't think it would be possible for me to care less what you or anyone else decided to play."
"and if you cannot defend your arguments logically then that speaks for itself"
And so on. Attitude or respect goes both ways.

You described TNN as a perfect sideboard card. Why are you playing 2 in the main?
Your white splash removed possibility for playing Cavern. Without Cavern you are susceptible to Counterbalance or any other counterspell (you won't draw Vial every game). Having your Adept Dazed or Spellsnared is a factor.
You talk about how Shaman and Delver are not a problem (another condescending line "His assertion, that Standstill is a dead card against any deck that has a good turn one play, is ridiculous.") then say you are Forceing turn one Delver, play Vial and Standstill to recoup the lost resources and have Submerge and RiP to destroy the Shaman. Delver decks also play Daze and Force. What happens when they fight back and their threat sticks? How playable is Standstill then?
Try playing Standstill vs goblins (Cavern, Lackey, good luck), elves... Without Vial Standstill is a liability because most other decks have better starts than we do, or they are combo and don't mind slowing game to crawl while sculpting the perfect hand.

fwiw, when I first started playing the deck, I tried standstill from the get-go, because in my mind it was a great inclusion to capitalize after a fast start. I was utterly disappointed and came to the same conclusions FANAttIC mentioned. I do not think we can start as fast as a 3/2 flyer on t1. I do think we can snowball and at the same time hinder our opponents. We were missing a late game but now TNN offers a pretty nice solution to that issue. Also, I do not believe that the splash works that well in legacy, contrary to modern where several splashes can be envisioned (what you gain is smaller than the amount of consistency you lose from the shaky battle plan). Cavern is nice, and I would not replace it (at least for now) with wastelands even though I miss them deeply. Sandbagging a cavern and landing your TNN on turn 3 can be backbreaking for so many opponents with force in hand.
I am not here to take sides, I am just giving you my 2 cents on the matter.
Best of luck to anyone championing them 'folks at their next tournament,
Cheers

So that you cannot take anything I say out of context anymore, I will address each of your points directly.

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Originally Posted by FANAttIC

You described TNN as a perfect sideboard card. Why are you playing 2 in the main?

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Because I do not have space in the sideboard for two more cards that are only amazing against tribal strategies and there are no other Merfolk that I would want to play maindeck to be playing 18-21 creatures. The world is an imperfect place.

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Your white splash removed possibility for playing Cavern. Without Cavern you are susceptible to Counterbalance or any other counterspell (you won't draw Vial every game). Having your Adept Dazed or Spellsnared is a factor.

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You're right; I won't have Vial every game. But statistically speaking, I will have it more often than most Countertop lists will have Counterbalance, as they are for the most part only running three. I could say the exact same for your Cavern of Souls.

If you really think that stopping creatures with counterspells is a good plan, you have not been playing this game for very long. To clarify, that is not attitude. That has been a fact since Kird Ape was squaring off against Counterspell. I could go through and show you why that's a silly thing to be worried about, but the truth is if you don't understand how to beat counterspells with creatures I'm not sure what good my words are going to be to you. If you want to take that as condescension, I guess there's nothing I can do about it.

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You talk about how Shaman and Delver are not a problem (another condescending line "His assertion, that Standstill is a dead card against any deck that has a good turn one play, is ridiculous.") then say you are Forceing turn one Delver, play Vial and Standstill to recoup the lost resources and have Submerge and RiP to destroy the Shaman.

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I immediately follow the statement that you quote me on with 4 different scenarios where I could regain a positive board state, thus explaining why worrying about one good one drop is ridiculous. They are:

1) land an Aether Vial before dropping Standstill and you will outpace the opponent's board.
2) Make three or four more creatures and drop a Standstill
3) Get to a neutral board position (maybe just a Lord), drop Standstill and then let later Mutavaults turn the position positive
4) Use some postboard removal (like Submerge) to regain a positive board position, then drop Standstill

At no point in that post (or in posts after it) do I say anything about Force of Will. I mention FOW vs. Delver in an earlier post, and that was to suggest that they do not, in fact, always have it without us at least having some way to interact. It was addressing a very specific hypothetical line from a BUG Delver player. My point remains: in the boardstate of Aether Vial + Standstill vs. Delver + Deathrite Shaman, I would much, much rather be on the Vial side of things as that is a position that is more likely to win the game. Yes, sometimes they draw perfectly and we do not. Scoop 'em up and move on to the next two games.

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Delver decks also play Daze and Force. What happens when they fight back and their threat sticks? How playable is Standstill then?

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Delver decks also play Daze and Force. What happens when they fight back and their threat sticks? How playable is ANY CARD IN THE HISTORY OF MAGIC THE GATHERING WHEN THEY DRAW THE PERFECT SEQUENCE OF THREATS AND ANSWERS AND WE HAVE AN OPENING HAND OF 6 LANDS AND A CHALICE OF THE VOID AND I CAN'T BELIEVE THAT THEY ARE SO LUCKY AND I AM GOING TO FIND THE PERFECT CARD TO COMPLETELY DESTROY THIS GUY IN THIS COMPLETELY PRECONCEIVED HYPOTHETICAL SITUATION THAT IS TERRIBLE FOR ME BECAUSE I CUT ALL OF MY INTERACTION IN FAVOR OF NARROW CARDS TO BEAT SOME OTHER HYPOTHETICAL SITUATION then?

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Try playing Standstill vs goblins (Cavern, Lackey, good luck),

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I have not seen a Goblins deck at the top tables in over a year. It is not a deck.

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elves...

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Elves is a difficult matchup that is actually helped with Standstill. Their entire gameplan involves casting spells (often a dozen spells a turn) to get an advantage. If they just drop some creatures in play and I play a Standstill with something as innocuous as a Lord and a Mutavault in play, they are in a terrible spot because their creatures are all much smaller than mine, so they will be forced to break it which will help draw me into more defenses.

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Without Vial Standstill is a liability because most other decks have better starts than we do,

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See the four situations I outlined above.

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or they are combo and don't mind slowing game to crawl while sculpting the perfect hand.

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Combo matchups are the impetus for playing Standstill. They can try to sit back and "sculpt the perfect hand," but I can assure you that while they are doing that, they are taking 5+ damage a turn so they can't sit there for long. I beat 2 drastically different combo decks in the open with Standstill, both trying to just sit back and sculpt the perfect hand, but that's pretty difficult to do when they can't cast Ponder and Brainstorm and they are facing down an Ethersworn Canonist or a Rest in Peace, a Lord of Atlantis and a Mutavault while I am in the mean time drawing counterspells and threats (since that's all that's in my deck). I lost to Belcher because sometimes you lose to crappy decks and it sucks. That's Legacy.


It's almost like you think that I just cast Standstill whenever I have two lands in play and Standstill in my hand. If that's how you're playing the card, no wonder you don't like it. If you're going to bring up any real cases and issues aside from "what if they draw perfects and we don't?!?!?" then I will address them, otherwise this is where I leave you all. Merfolk is a deck that requires you to actually play Magic. It has strong matchups against the best decks in the field (which is why I choose to play it) and it struggles against some decks which either cannot win a Magic tournament or do not really exist anymore. If you are uncomfortable with that then I guess you can put whatever cards into it that you'd like, but believe me when I say that you would be better served at simply getting better at playing the deck than at trying to fit in narrow cards that beat the decks that we already beat. If you are already struggling to beat decks with Islands in them, then all of the Chalice of the Voids and Cavern of Souls in the world will not help you win a tournament.

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Originally Posted by nafshot

fwiw, when I first started playing the deck, I tried standstill from the get-go, because in my mind it was a great inclusion to capitalize after a fast start. I was utterly disappointed and came to the same conclusions FANAttIC mentioned. I do not think we can start as fast as a 3/2 flyer on t1. I do think we can snowball and at the same time hinder our opponents. We were missing a late game but now TNN offers a pretty nice solution to that issue. Also, I do not believe that the splash works that well in legacy, contrary to modern where several splashes can be envisioned (what you gain is smaller than the amount of consistency you lose from the shaky battle plan). Cavern is nice, and I would not replace it (at least for now) with wastelands even though I miss them deeply. Sandbagging a cavern and landing your TNN on turn 3 can be backbreaking for so many opponents with force in hand.
I am not here to take sides, I am just giving you my 2 cents on the matter.
Best of luck to anyone championing them 'folks at their next tournament,
Cheers

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It can get depressing to have a turn 1 Delver, turn 2 flip happen to you (their best start), but if that is all of the pressure that they have (and Standstill will see to it) it's a turn 7 or 8 kill and is infinitely raceable with even an average start from Merfolk. We both have Daze and Force of Will to fight over that opener, so again, it's something that happens but honestly it doesn't happen that much. Being upset because the opponent had a better draw than you isn't productive. Kira, for instance, blanks their ability to race us as it turns off their removal. I would also suggest that those Delver decks which get the fastest starts are also least prepared to beat our main plan, which is to develop a better board position than they do, so I think even with their best start, we will win more games than they will. In fact, I don't just think it, I've practiced it a lot and have come to that conclusion based on a lot of testing.

It is precisely against Delver decks that cards like Wasteland, Daze and Spell Pierce are at their best. Post-board, we tend to board in cards like Submerge and they tend to board out Force of Will for Pyroblast which are both moves that leave them vulnerable to getting out-tempoed. Or, put another way, if you are losing to exactly Delver of Secrets, why are you durdling around with cards like Chalice of the Void and Cavern of Souls?

I thought about Standstills as a sideboard card against Shardless and Miracles, but I don't think it's really needed and probably is waste of sideboard space.

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Originally Posted by benthetenor

Elves is a difficult matchup that is actually helped with Standstill. Their entire gameplan involves casting spells (often a dozen spells a turn) to get an advantage. If they just drop some creatures in play and I play a Standstill with something as innocuous as a Lord and a Mutavault in play, they are in a terrible spot because their creatures are all much smaller than mine, so they will be forced to break it which will help draw me into more defenses.

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First of all, you want CotV over Standstill here always.
And if you're going to drop Standstill with just Lord and Mutavault, you're making game easier for them in most situations because you're giving them at least three cards and land drops (including creatures, with fetches) - sometimes more because you can't attack with Lord into Sentinel, for example.

Similar thing with Delver decks - droping standstill against t1 delver might work, but it's risky. Droping CotV against most delver decks makes their life harder while our is almost as easy as it was.

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Originally Posted by benthetenor

It can get depressing to have a turn 1 Delver, turn 2 flip happen to you (their best start), but if that is all of the pressure that they have (and Standstill will see to it) it's a turn 7 or 8 kill and is infinitely raceable with even an average start from Merfolk. We both have Daze and Force of Will to fight over that opener, so again, it's something that happens but honestly it doesn't happen that much. Being upset because the opponent had a better draw than you isn't productive. Kira, for instance, blanks their ability to race us as it turns off their removal. I would also suggest that those Delver decks which get the fastest starts are also least prepared to beat our main plan, which is to develop a better board position than they do, so I think even with their best start, we will win more games than they will. In fact, I don't just think it, I've practiced it a lot and have come to that conclusion based on a lot of testing.

It is precisely against Delver decks that cards like Wasteland, Daze and Spell Pierce are at their best. Post-board, we tend to board in cards like Submerge and they tend to board out Force of Will for Pyroblast which are both moves that leave them vulnerable to getting out-tempoed. Or, put another way, if you are losing to exactly Delver of Secrets, why are you durdling around with cards like Chalice of the Void and Cavern of Souls?

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When did I ever hint at anything depressing in a t1 delver (that occurs about 40% of the time based on statistics)? I said that it is a faster start than us and that is it. I said that IN MY EXPERIENCE standstill did not provide the impact I assumed it would. I might not be the best standstill player though. Merfolk has a lot of redundancy and I do not think that card advantage is as important in our strategy as in others'. Silvergill is different because of the body attached to it. Jumping through hoops to make Standstill mater is not my personal preference but might suit you. Again, IN MY EXPERIENCE, combo players laugh at you when you play Standstill. They let you draw your cards, then go for it when they have adequate counter back-up. Let's say that instead of playing Standstill, you play a lord and clock them for 5 or 8 (assuming a Silvergill and a Mutavault after that) instead of going for only the Silvergill (2) and later on Silvergill+Mutavault (4). IN MY EXPERIENCE, I pressure them efficiently if I play the lord, but less so when I go for the Standstill. Remember that Standstill takes up a slot and that slot could be something else to apply more pressure (let's say an image to copy a lord...).

My 2 cents again: You should always consider what is best for your style of play. However, what I find particularly interesting is that I see many people always think they cracked Merfolk but when I look at Legacy top8, the lists that do well are very close to one another bearing tweaks to adapt to their respective fields. Innovation is very important but when you fight against a very established strategy you will open yourself to criticism: take it nicely and philosophically and do not assume that other people are stupid. You post interesting opinion but if you establish it as the uncontested truth, we will not take you seriously. Let's keep the discussion enjoyable and fruitful for everyone involved please, shall we.

Anyway,
Have fun with the deck and keep the game fair by playing sushis :tongue:
Best,

My bad. I assumed that when you said you were "utterly disappointed" that that was a frustrating and depressing experience for you.

Merfolk does have a lot of redundancy when you build it that way. If you jam 8 Lord of Atlantis, 4 Reejery, 4 Phantasmal Image, there's no point in drawing lots of cards or in filtering through cards since all of your cards do pretty much the same thing. I have chosen not to build the deck in that manner, instead staying true to the roots of the deck as a fish-style deck, having a good mix of creatures and control features. Keeping it aggro-control rather than pushing it further into the aggro direction. It is because of that that I have included Standstill, Brainstorm, Spell Pierce, Wasteland, Aether Vial and Daze, because those are all cards that help me play an aggro-control game. I will say that I don't have to "jump through hoops" to make Standstill matter. In my deck, and the way I play it, it's pretty much always good, and the small number of times it's not I can either wait for the game to develop further when it will be good or use Brainstorm to get rid of it.

I usually don't have Silvergill in my deck post-board against combo. In games 2 and 3, it's all Lords, Cursecatchers, Mutavaults and hatebears. That makes it very likely that if I drop 2 creatures and then follow it up with a standstill, those creatures will be hitting for anywhere from 4-6 while also disrupting the enemy. Combined with the damage they take themselves, the damage I've dealt to that point, Mutavaults I drop later or active Aether Vial, it usually results in a 2-3 turn clock where they also have to bounce my hate bear (which could be irrelevant with a Vial on 2) and fight through any disruption in my hand and in the top 3 cards of my deck. It is very difficult to lose a game where I've resolved Standstill against a combo deck.

It should also be noted that I'm not the one fighting against an established strategy. If anything, the deck that I'm playing looks more like what the deck has looked like up until about a year ago when people started cutting Standstill and Aether Vial and Wasteland.

The utter disappointment (depression is something else) was for standstill in my meta not t1 delver hence the misquote.

You can find my list in my previous post. I run a classical build indeed but without Reejerey. I do run 4 phantasmal images and have therefore more creatures in the 2 slot than you, which fits my play style. I have a hard time believing that 4 manlands is sufficient for standstill but I guess I should try. I think that if merfolk has shifted away from its roots (noble fish is something different though) it is because we do not play the control/aggro role as efficiently as say UWR delver or RUG delver (or BUG). These decks have gotten a lot more velocity lately and that has caused merfolk to adapt.

Again your points are interesting and now that we have a pleasant chat we might share valuable pieces of advice.

Also, why exactly do you cut silvergill?