WonderPreaux's first article for The Epic Storm.
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The other day I played at locals with my 4Gemstones - 3C.M list and New D.P. Card I will write some notes about the tournament:
Important notes:
I won all of my 1st match ups in my 4 rounds and both C.M and EtW main were as always an all star
I used twice D.P.:
One vs ANT deck in which I had a hand of D.R.,RoF, Lands and B.W., in here I B.W. For D.P. And next I drew B.S. Then we entered in an attrition game in which D.P. Could be used in 2 angles to fetch LED or A.N. As the phases elapsed I finalled drew I.T. So I just needed to fetch LED for the win but in here this card was a house.
The other match up was vs Omnishow, but In here I made a mistake.. as I didn't evaluate enough the Split Decision card... and I fetched D.P. This was absurd as the Opp. Could fetch whatever thing and even adding BBB to his pool!, The most absurd thing was that the Opp. When I finally casted D.P. He just didn't used Split decision... so IF I had casted D.P. Before I had won that match up.... Sure you all boys know this card but be aware if this fact if any isn't!
My match ups were:
1. A kind o reanimator won
2. ANT won easily
3. Grixis Delver maybe?
3.1.In here I won first game – EtW plus therapy was the key, lost 2nd and the 3rd I casted Ad Nauseam through a FoW at 20 lifes and B floating – well this is the first time this occurs to me and maybe was because of not suffling well but I only revealed 1 RoFlame and almost all of my tutors in the deck – I drew even EtW .. I evaluated at some point to stop at +4 Lifes because of Bolt, but even that way I could not win on my next 2-3 turns.... was really frustating so I decided to reveal some more cards ... I was irritated... and really didn't mind at all how the game was going to develop , I finally named Bolt with therapy -failed and he B.S. Into Bolt – likely I should have named B.S...
3.2.Likely IF I had opted the EtW plan I had won instead Ad Nauseam...
At this point I would have won 3 in a row
NOTE: I think most of here fear Grixis delver this deck contains Delver, Y.Pyromancer, FoW and daze and 4 wastelands, but I'm happy to see this match up because I was used to face Tempo in the form of RUG which also played Stifle and this card seems to be not present in this meta so great!
All I can say about this match up is that C.Therapy from their part is a really tough card which won his 2nd game and that Gemstones for me strengthened the concept of polivalency of available mana - I just preferred to beeing destroyed volcanic when I Only had 2 lands between hand and in play.
Another point is that for me EtW shined in this match up, some by here says that EtW is not as good because of Y.P... I think this is backwards... because:
a) After some conversation with the Opp, he only played 1 Electrickery vs my Gobs! This is logic as he also can not play cards like pyroclasm or likes which destroyes his elementals...
b) If you play on 2nd or 1st turn or even 3rd turn an amount of Gobs you just win even if the Opp. Plays 1 or 2 or 3 Y.P.... 16-18 gobs are a lot of gobs to handle....
regarding my Omnishow match up well a thing happened which was not beeing able to cast Xantid because I had V.Island and Sea and this would have been key to win this match up, even ponder and gitaxian didn't find me Green...
I know you boys just don't agree but I've been always hating the 2nd volcanic in my 60 and just needed 1 fucking more snceario to take out finally 1 copy definately... I will take out this shitty land and put back 1 CoB... not only this issue happened, more times I encountered scenarios like this, as I just have in mind those scenarios to get better and better my TES deck...
Now time to answer you my dear Lemnear... I'm sorry but today I'm not in the best mood either, I usually just take my own directions and sometimes ask for opinions but I finally prefer to do what
I exactly think it is the best... I will take a break from this.... maybe we think all of us by here are super bigminded - self-centered .... I laughed when Bryant wrote in his WebSite about himself... looks like he made an inverview about himself. It is ok people do what they want, the only thing that matters is that it has to be not offensive – spent a good time reading it...
Yeah I switched one of my sitty V.Inland for CoB! V.I. Was advocated to extinction in my mind...Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Well maybe I have to start concluding for example when a card is tapped - lets see: depending on the angle of vision I have, for example If I need to go to the bathroom in the middle of a game, then my angle of vision is different when I am next to the corner of the table - fuck shit, it is untapped!and may be tapped again when approaching to the bathroom as I occupy an space behind my opponent, ohh shit, this is easy I just have to wait to come back from bathroom and sit down to see again my card tapped!
I'll throw again the question: when a card is tapped? If I don't come back from the bathroom and the bathroom is next to the table of my opponent how is the card tapped or untapped? Lot of questions invade my mind... too many doubts...
Maybe you are right about the Thread I initiated, it is a shit to not being able to cast D.P off LEDs the most powerfull card...
Related to 7 discard – 3 C.M. Well... yes for me it has been a start withouh questioning... maybe someday I took 1 C.M. Or 1 discard, but nothing else... you man destroyed TES when you took out :
- EtW
- C.M.
And added that shit of card named RoFilth which produces even 0 mana.... to a fucking supposed to be -what? A 1st turn 2nd turn win deck with a percentage of winning on 3rd turn?
I would have liked you to won the GP Lille, however I would have hated such an aberration had been named TES winning the GP...
Are you joking in here? do you play in a 5 dimension planar in which Gemstones produces at the same time B, R and U? ohh please bring me to there, I virtually am sometimes in 7 dimesions planars but not playing MTG...Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
fuck that argument boy. I re-iterate:
I love using a single land to play any combination of sequential order of:
1st or 2nd or 3rd ponder
2nd or 1st or 3rd duress
3rd or 1st or 2nd RoF
and again:
IF you are wastelanded to hell and the unique land you have is a U.Sea or from now on ShittyVolcanicIsland which land would you prefer? one of those or a super Gemstones or CoB or even U.Paradise? sure your fucking lonely argument is - I guess - use fetchlands to avoid wastelanded - what a fucking joke - which will be the next conclusion? not to play ponder?
I don't understand this well enough to answer, but I think I spent enough spare time by the moment ... as said I will take a break from this, please take it easy I still love you a lot Lemnear!Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Funny as I it mimics my Lille game 2 against Elves and kinda proving the point that Moxen are pointless if you can float mana into AN, but fail to flip the sheer amount of mana to wish for ToA.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelikanudo
The problem is Pyromancer + Therapy + DTT against all Grixis variants.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelikanudo
So? How do you win with Gemstone and a hand of Rite, Rite, Infernal, Duress, LED for example? You don't and run only 12 lands total.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelikanudo
Wow! Trying to make a point out of your opponent being an idiot: "I rather die to Goblins before sweeping my own Pyromancer and tokens!". BRILLIANT POINT DOOD! Barely as good as arguing based on "I have a turn 1 combo for 8 to 9 stormcount natrually and my opponent has no interaction at all". Thats the games/scenarios we REALLY care for. /sarcasmQuote:
Originally Posted by Pelikanudo
A decision you would regret once your sole Volcanic would get killed (which is usually my land to lead with) and you can't access a second red land with any of the fetchlands. Maybe the issue beckmes more prevailing if you run only 5-6 mana producing lands like I did but a plethora of fetchesQuote:
Originally Posted by Pelikanudo
Wut?Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelikanudo
It's not just the LED topic, it's that the redundancy tool you picked (Dark Petition) for your Doomsday build isn't solving existing problems of the archetype, but creates its own in demanding Cabal Rituals.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelikanudo
The claim of me destroying TES doesn't bother me at all tbh as I have heared all that before, when I was pushing the removal of Silence and Goldlands which some have argued being the fundamental core of what TES is. My vision of this deck is different and my work solely aims to keep the concept viable and I'm fine getting flak for unconventional ideas, but the discussion this time is really absurd, if we add improvements for the current DEEP blue metagame and you keep fucking pointing at goldfish scenarios
No problem, dood. I had written "Storm" on the sheet. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelikanudo
I'm not joking. How does Gemstone solve the problems of having Rite of Flame + Infernal Tutor or Dark Ritual + Burning Wish in hand? It simply does not. You ALWAYS need TWO initial mana sources in play to solve this puzzle and if those two IMS are Sea/Volcanic or Fetch/Fetch or Fetch/Dual you can cast ALL THE SPELLS you listed as well, just with more shuffle effects and less self-destructing lands. I'm playing 14 to achieve this density of quality IMS for a reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelikanudo
No, its: "Play more than only 12 lands to avoid that scenario AND play more lands which are not automatically exposed to Wasteland like Gemstone". In all honest, its not my problem if you a) play easy wasteland-targets right into landdestruction and b) not enough lands to recover from wasteland either. I'm fixing this exact problem you took here as example.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelikanudo
Not a big deal. The part quoted was about that your Statement about how you play Brainstorm contrasts strongly with your announced focus of comboing T1 or T2, but is a lot more like I play brainstorm after all the "fetchland, go" against Delver except that I cast Brainstorm eot and fetch away the crap, untap, draw a fresh card and can comboQuote:
Originally Posted by Pelikanudo
The problem is I think there are two decks using the same core that are in conflict with one another, the original TES with Chrome Mox and the new TnT with Rite of Flame. I agree cutting Empty the Warrens is an absolutely terrible idea, because then you're a fundamentally T3 deck, but cutting Chrome Mox in order to become a more consistent T2 deck in a metagame full of Spell Pierce and Daze has a lot of merrit. I think the problem with the discussion is that there are too many proponents on the far extremes, I've tried lists with 3, 2, 1 and 0 Chrome Mox, with Swamp, with Island, with Badlands, with Bayou and I think all of them have their strengths and weaknesses. I don't think Chrome Mox should be cut completely, but I do think we don't need as many. I think both Bryant and I are on 2 at the moment with a SB Bayou to be able to cut 1, the right number of them is probably in the margins as I don't like having to float mana every time I cast Ad Nauseam. Even 1 copy makes a discernable difference on life loss vs aggro-control, which is why I've disregarded Rain of Filth altogether - it's really not that awful as a Black Rite of Flame, it's just no where near as good here as it is in ANT.
Alexandre's Article for this week!
http://www.theepicstorm.com/the-epic...coast-deja-vu/
Thanks for the publicity!Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
For anyone interested, this is the report of my last tournament, after we discussed about Chalice that much. Everything that happened should be explained there.
If you have any questions, feel free to ask!
r1:
To me it feels a little weird to board Swarms vs dredge; although I guess they can have fow/shoals/traps and you can remove bridges with flashback therapy.
r2g1:
I would always brainstorm there against a deck with t2 lockpieces, especially if he's mulling to them. I would likely brainstorm from the LP, especially if the land was a fetch so that you can refresh the top of your deck (next turn if you fizzle and he somehow has nothing important, this turn with a probe or even another cantrip or if you need to therapy his thalia(s) post-bs).
r2g2:
The question is whether drawing empty is going to be good if he somehow stabilizes or ratchet bombs your tokens at which point he will likely have some hate on the board. I don't think it's that bad of a draw here, since it will be easier to make a few more tokens for the last lifepoints than to combo through his stuff later. Will hardly ever matter in any case.
r2r3:
A hand with 4 lands and a mulligan (mox) seems a little slow in the matchup, even if the 2 remaining cards are very good. Oh, and my suggestion of Hurkyl's Recall seems quite good against Chalice@0,Chalice@1,double Ethersworn Canonist + Mother of Runes :P.
r4g1:
I think the strategic plan of going slow, wiping their board, and building up against elves is wrong.
r4g3:
I don't think I'd make 12 goblins on the draw here, assuming the other draw (turn/probe) was a blank. They should be able to stabilize, and you are quite close to a PiF kill. It also depends on his hand ofcourse; if he had 4 discard spells I'd have made tokens, if he had green cards I'd pass (and consider playing LED vs discard)). PiF seems like a strange card to board without Tendrils main, but I don't play TES enough to comment on that.
Afterthoughts:
Decks such as the DnT deck with Chalice, Leylines, eTutor (incl goblin hate) shouldn't exist in real tournaments (although there are often a few combo-hating people out there in the early rounds), but I'm sure that's been mentioned before :P. At least playing in an inbred metagame will teach you about worst case scenarios in all the matchups..
Decay is okay against DnT, but not great (although it helps against the Chalice version). Against standard lists I don't even board all the ones in my board in ANT, with 2 green duals and more lands than TES. It's a very good SB card for Counterbalance and Chalice, but not the matchup specific answer. If you really want to prepare for them I'd board in 4 Dread of Nights, 2 Hurkyl's Recall, 1 Chain of Vapor, 1 Void Snare with Massacre being available to wish for. You can probably cut all the decays, swarms, the 2nd chain and 1-2 of your removal wishtargets (Grapeshot imo) in your metagame (that's 2-3 cuts too many, in which you could run dedicated dredge hate since you play it every week anyways; e.g. Planar Void and an artifact hate wish slot)).
Maybe something like this:
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames
1 Void Snare
1 Massacre
1 Artifact-Hate (affinity+crazy DnT, likely Shattering Spree?)
4 Dread of Night (crazy DnT)
2 Hurkyl's Recall (affinity+crazy DnT)
1 Chain of Vapor (Catch-all)
2 Planar Void (Dredge + possibly Reanimate if he still plays that)
Perhaps you want the 2nd Chain over one of the anti-hate pieces for DnT.
A big thanks for the detailled answers!
Right or wrong, she plays a playset of each cards you mentionned, so 12 counterspell total, and she has no way to remove the Xantid. We both know that if she does counterspell me, most likely, that will be a huge step back for her as she needs to draw in order to discard. Meanwhile, I can just play more lands to make sure I'll go out properly when I have the opening. Honestly, Xantid are working great so far against her. :smile:Quote:
Originally Posted by JamieW89
That's what I'll most likely do next time, if given the opportunity.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamieW89
Fair point. I always thought going for Grapeshot/Tendrils for 4-6-8 was easier than winning via an other round of Goblins, but I might be wrong and will take your word into consideration. As you say, it will likely not matter, but it's still good to know.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamieW89
To be honest, I think you're right. That hand wasn't keepable under the circunstances, thanks for showing me. Regarding Hurkyl's Recall, the card really seems awesome, but I didn't sleeve it for 3 reasons:Quote:
Originally Posted by JamieW89
-First, I didn't think a lot of situation would happen in which Chalice & Ethersworn would be on the field at the same time.
-Second, I wanted a card to get rid of Thalia, if I needed to, thus Echoing Truth.
-Third, and most importantly... the reason I didn't even test it, is because I know I won't be able to have a playset before the end of summer.
Given the possibility I would test it.
It's not my first plan, it was mostly regarding a mulligan or not. I'm curious tho, how far are you ready to go on the safety/speed ratio against them?Quote:
Originally Posted by JamieW89
From memory, he had something like 2 Natural Order, 1 Glimpse of Nature, and a land. The reason I discarded the Past in Flames idea quickly was a Deathrite Shaman in play. It could have been the good choice still, but I clearly remember that I didn't want to fight though it. I could have been wrong without a doubt tho.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamieW89
Regarding the sideboard, well, I guess it's a strategic issue from my part. I mean the following: the website suggests
+2 Chain of Vapor
+1 Void Snare
+1 Thoughtseize
-2 Duress
-1 Ponder
-1 Empty the Warrens
I always thought the reason to bring bounce effects was a lack of sweepers in the board. Pyroclasm is hell of a ''permanent base problem fixer'' against Elves. I have no room to run Thoughtseize, and regarding the Duress, I took Lemnear advice...
...as again, I didn't feel the need to bring anything else in. I don't know if Past in Flames is a valid answer to their discard, but if you asked me now, I would believe it's better than having Empty the Warrens just to block a few creatures until we (or they) combo, given that Craterhoof provides Trample. It's a habit (suggest by someone else I believe?) I took from playing so much against Pox, when I got tired of losing to Pernicious Deeds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
The suggestions seem good. I'll double check if I can get some Hurkyl's Recall. I like quite a lot how you specify each cards role, it helps me understand a bit better the decision behind each of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamieW89
That said, how would you board this specificly? Mostly in D&T match. 4 Dread of Night seems awesome when backed up with Chalice hate, but it requires that I can play those at first, meaning no Chalice first or having Hurkyl's in hand. It's it, I don't know, asking too much? I see it like you're suggesting a slower approach that we discarded quite early already, as controlish never worked against them. Mind you, my noob eye tends to believe in your list, but I'm trying to see what's that different. Wouldn't we go from creating the smallest (with Abrupt/Shattering Spree/Echoing Truth ) of opening and hope, to a let's surrender to death, and if death chooses to kill us slowly, we might see an opening builds up?
Not that it would be a problem, at this point I'm open to try everything I can. But do you believe it?
Took down the local Legacy FNM tonight; including as many notes as I took; most games were pretty straight-forward.
Current List:
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Ponder
4 Rite of Flame
2 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
2 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Bayou
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Dark Petition
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Massacre
1 Past in Flames
1 Pyroblast
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Thoughtseize
1 Void Snare
2 Xantid Swarm
List of decks that were out tonight (that I remember):
TES
Lands x2
Goblins
Grixis Delver
UWR Stoneblade
UR Delver
4c Delver
Pox
4c Midrange
Burn
Death & Taxes
Something else I can't think of
R1: Death & Taxes
G1: No idea what this guy is on, opener really just needed a red source to go for EtW or an LED to pair with IT. He opens on Wasteland; vial. The single USea in my hand is looking quite a bit worse now. Draw step doesn't help, Ponder shuffle fails and soon enough I'm just discarding to hand size, under a Thalia and scoop it up.
+2Cov, +1 Snare, +1 TS, -2 Duress, -2 CR
G2: Opener is Mire, Probe, LED, LED, Petal, Void Snare, IT. Probe reveals some critters and Cage, draws another LED and we T1 him.
G3: Karakas, go. Okay...open on a Thoughtseize taking his Thalia and leaving him with some ports, 2nd Karakas and a Jitte. I build up some lands while he eventually drops SFM for Skull - probably figuring the bit of can-tripping and just draw-go means he needs to put the beat stick on. Upkeep he goes to port and I just DR, AN with a a few additional rituals, LED, and a Petal already in hand.
2-1
R2: 4c Midrange - the deck is hard to describe, it's more or less a meta deck. Counter-top, living wish package, loam engine, etc. Good bit of spice between main deck EE, variety of counters and the wish package.
G1: Had the T1 nuts with probe+discard if it had been needed. He doesn't have a FoW to stop me.
+2Decay, +2 Xantid, +1 Pyroblast, +1ToA, +1Bayou, +1Thoughtseize, -1EtW, -4 Ponder, -1 CM, -2 CR
Very possible this is overboarding but seemed reasonable given the weird mix of 'stuff' that's going on with this deck. I mostly treat it like miracles.
G2: Opener can go T1 if he has nothing...Grove, top, pass. I probe to see that he has no additional land, FoW but no blue card. I figure that if I lose to a blind draw with the Top then that's life. We get there with an easy Ad Naus.
2-0
R3: Grixis Delver
G1: T2 Ad Naus for a big ol' tendrils
+1 Bayou, +2 Xantid, -2 Ponder, -1 CR
G2: We play draw go for a while, he seems to have a hand full of permission but no threats. I manage to bait maybe two counters on some BW (would have been going for TS or Ponder if necessary). I eventually decide to go for it, drop some mana and tutor up 18 goblins. I pass, he draws, he scoops. He said he messed up at one point on not clearing the top of his deck with a fetch and I'm honestly happy never knowing what could have been on top.
2-0
R4: RG Lands
As the only undefeated players my opponent is looking for a draw. He says he hasn't played the storm match-up but is basically 100% that it's near 0% in his favor. I'm happy to save some time and just ID this round. We play the games out just to kill time while we wait for others to play through.
G1: Slow opening but a pair of cantrips and we eventually Ad Naus, Wish, Tendrils.
+2Decay, +2 Cov, +1Thoughtseize, +1 Bayou, -1EtW, -2CR, -3 Therapy
We play a boarded game so he can get the experience.
G2: Sadly he doesn't really get much of an experience as I T2 Ad Naus for the kill. I did open on a Duress just in case. His opener was something like Mox Diamond and lands so I'm a little surprised he didn't try to mull into hate or something with a little more umph. Apparently he brought in a Chalice and 3x Sphere of Resistance but just didn't get to even draw them.
ID (2-0 in the time killer games)
3-0-1 to add a sizable chunk of store credit to my horde.
EXTRA
Had a bit of a fun line with DP during one of the fun/testing matches before the night actually started. I'm sure there was another option and granted I didn't really take notes for this so I can't recall what other plays I could have gone with.
Playing against the 4c deck above and I need to get moving but no RoF and just a Volc for red mana (cutting off PiF with some can trips in the yard). After a pair of rituals I have USea untapped with 5B floating, BW being cast and with IT in hand. BW gets DP, DP gets LED plus 3B floating which lets us IT for AN.
Hi all I have to say I'm in testing phase to determine what I'm going to bring to the MKM series which will be in Madrid soon... I'd like to bring TES in some way and will try to adapt it to what I think it is the best.... I hope I will not have any need to bring my TNT heavy artillery deck...
This is my 2nd tornament and I have some aftermaths after the tournament, the other day I played one and now it is the 2nd small tournament..., the list I played was:
Current List:
4 Gemstone Mire
4 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 City of brass - this is the difference from the 1st tournament switching from ShittyVolcanicIsland
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Ponder
4 Rite of Flame
3 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
3 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Krosan Grip - maybe I switch to wipe away...
1 Bayou
1 Dark Petition
1 Empty the Warrens
1 pyroclasm
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Duress
1 Void Snare
2 Xantid Swarm
The tournament was bad - not awfull as I started playing vs MUD and even I won one match up in here, the other 2 were just pain looses...
I want to expose how expecifically 2 match ups developed:
- VS a Kind of Control Deck with lots of Instants I think looks like this:
http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=17676&iddeck=133135
- The 1st mach up was an incredible game me evaluating each play and forcing the opponent to play their counterspells, on overall I needed to go thorugh 2 FoWs, 2 Pyros, 1Spellsnare, 1 counterspell, 1Flusterstorm, the game was long but I finally won as the pressure was almost inexistent except for the secure the wastes - In here I have to recognize that I was solid with my duals being able to cast almost anything I could need, the opp. did't believe how lost this one, ha ha
- The 2nd game I kept a strange hand with LED, PEtal, Threats and 4 Gitaxian - I guarranty this. and wasn't able to handle the game without lands (1 even beeing destroyed) and a Vendilion
- The 3rd game was as we say in spanish 'Un jarro de agua fria' - like a bucket of cold water I mean - I drew as unique lands 2 Gemstones mire and I suffered the pain for first time of beeing advocated to autodestruction as we even reach a game state in which the opponent needed to discard!!! - likely playing another manabase or ANT or TNT the match up would have been easily won... talking after the round with my opp. he even didn't side any permanent hate, just more flusters and pyroclasms... I noticed this anyway in this 3rd match up so that I put back the EtW for 1 of my A.D. having total 1A.D, 1EtW 2 Xantids. Even that lonely A.D. was useless but I didn't draw it... The game developed me playing some cantrips and at some point I had to discard and as before I played I.T. to 2nd RoF to try to cast EtW in hand and trying to not to invest too many resources... I played LED, Petal , RoF, RoF, and Duress (FoWed) and EtW, he on next turn played 1 of his 2 pryroclasms - the fact that I had left 1 Gemstone with 1 counter left frustrated me and I conceded angry as I suddently realized I needed to change my mana base and therefore restructurate my for so long inmutable TES deck...Please readers have in mind this point for my next RUG match up....
vs RUG with nimbles, dazes, stifles -well all you know..., a match up I always love to play against, it was a shame the opp. wasn't very good at playing the deck...
Surprinsingly I talked to other boy who played TES and he also played against the same archetype and lost because of stifles, curiously I will say how the games developed for me:
- 1st game I started and played land G.P and ponder seeing just a daze and delver and ponder., and trying to set up a tons of gobs though a daze for the next turn, he justs plays Delver - WTF?, then I look at him trying to imagine if he drew FoW or not - he didn't seem and won him with tons of gobs.
- The 2ng game is the thing most contradictory - see note from before match up and the loose my Storm Mate suffered...
he plays land and pass the turn, I gitaxian having fetch and Gemstone and duress and rituals, I see 2 stifles, 2 tarmos forked bolt and delver, I strip 1 stifle, next turn he plays delver, next I draw therapy, play other gitaxian and drew 2nd therapy great!, I play therapy to stifle then fetch for U.Seah and strip 2 Tarmos! on next turns I play tons of gobs and won stripping also the forked bolt left... there is a fact and is that if the gemstone had been fetch I had been advocated to autodestruction in here....
Aftermaths:
a) After 2 recent tournaments and some goldfishing I have some conclusions:
the deck performed very well, however I faced the Control archetype I before mentioned which just overloads on counterspells of all falvours- I can't imagine the hand my opp. kept in 3rd game... as said in here I had to play an attrition game and in here gemstones were just bad... NOTE: this didn't happen vs RUG or Grixis or other archetypes, uniquely THIS archetype, which is enough to start to change my mind regarding the manabase...
b) On the other hand Gemstones behave as usual and liked the way they perform EXCEPT vs this archetype... will gemstones need to be substituted by fetches? will this change make me loose vs RUG? this is what scares me the most...
c) C.M. performs very well in the 2 tournaments as they provides me the enough speed to win me the 1st games vs ANT or Grixis delver or Omnishow, it worked also very well with B.W. to D.P.! fuck yeah!
d) so my next thought was If I want to play fetches and see how this performs vs RUG, which card I will take?, I asked to my Storm Mate between C.M. and duress, we agree that cutting 3rd duress is the less worst option...
e) the other point is that in goldfishing and in real torunament I realized 10 G Mana Sources is the minimum to cast Xantid ASAP, So which is the manbase which allows this?
Conclusions:
inevitably I had to evaluate in switching to Full CoB manabase following the next premises:
- A.N needs to be casted ASAP in order to be effective vs Agro decks, therefore having CoB instead of Gesmtones shouldn't be a problem - 1 to 3 life points?
- For the long game and once I am at low life total, A.N won't be casted and CoB life points will be irrelevant however it is a land which produces all colours with no need of taking out counters - perfect then! even I have access to CoB_V.2.0!
- I still dont see any reason to play more lands to avoid WastelandAndBlue.deck, however I see a reason to beeing able to cast several spells under 2 lands to win attrition games (Ex.: I.T. to Theray, B.W. to duress or to threat, Cantrips, etc...)
- On the other hand I will test as the rest of my StormMates the Fetch manabase - Well - better late than never! BUT having access to 10 G Manasources!
Well, this is the manabase I will test after some thoughts:
1 Verdant catacombs
4 Polluted
4 B.Mire
2 U.Sea
1 V.Island
1 Badlands
Plus Bayou in side
About the manabase:
- I believe it is the perfect one BUT I will need to test if I will not encounter scenarios in which I have dead fetches in hand... for 2nd and 3rd games I most of the times will bring bayou so I don't think so... Still testing....
- 9 fetches plus Bayou is the key to get the goal of 10 G Mana sources
- I have 3 blue producers, 3 black producers and 2 red producers to beeing able to handle mainly the following scenarios and derivated:
a) C.M on ponder plus fetch for badlands to cast B.W. or I.T. on 1st turn to the needed card
b) fetch to U.Sea to ponder to beeing able on next turn to play fetch to Badlands to cast disruption or B.W. or I.T. or cantrip
c) fetch to U.Sea to discard, next turn B.S. and fetch to badlands to discard or other thing
d) if Volcanic Island is wastelanded I still have Badlands, however with this manabase I find that U.Sea is the card I most of the times will search the first turn, which is also the one that handle most scenarios...
@Bahamut, Lemnear and Final Fortune mainly which are your opinions? others of course are welcome.
One manabase Bryant suggested and I tested was 8 Fetch, 2 Sea, 1 Volcanic, 1 Badland and an Island with 2 Mox, it was robust albeit slower.
my opinion is that you are 1,5 years to late and try to reinvent a Fetch/Dual manabase which is already available in a tuned and tested version.
Panicing because of Stifle isn't adequate, because the number of the card in field dropped, as traditional RUG Delver faced serious troubles to overcome SFM + TNN since early 2014 and the printing of Treasure Cruise and DTT isolated Stifle even more, so running Fetchlands lost it's only traditional predator, while the number of blue decks and grindy matchups (see: Gemstones depleting) rose.
P.S.: 9/4 Split of Fetches/Duals isn't optimal as you lack fetchable manasources in longer games,, even if the problem is smoothed by the sideable Bayou
Bryant Cook is 9-0 with TES after day one of SCGDC.
@Lemnear:
Ha! Well, I think it is opposite my friend..., look at this ManaBase I proposed... when you all still were toying at manabases with fetchlands including Bayou or other strange stuff....
EDIT: Please say 'sorry you were right' ;)
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post895991
Looking at the Deck Bryant played recently, it seems that this is the exact manabase I proposed....
The unique difference between the MainBase I proposed and the Current Bryant MainBase is just +1Duress = -1C.Mox which won him the tournament... I'm happy for that...
Recently I played 2 tournaments and I was looong time out of magic so my thoughts were just theoretical. it was true that after playing the torunaments I realized I needed to change the manabase and maybe the base...
In these 2 torunaments I realized also I somehow I would prefer t play 10 G Sources instead of 9 thats why I proposed the last manabase - Late testing demonstrated me that in deed 9 fetches were likely too many... so I'm thinking in just using the Base I proposed in this Link or 8 Fetches +1BadLands+2U.Sea+1V.Island + 1CoB.
Likely the marginal rate of the need to use the 10th G Source for Xantid is not worth and looking at the results of Bryant I would likely use from now on that list which is the list I could agree more on... I know Bryant and I don't like each other too much but somehow we agree on the same thoughts from the time I posted this... I would like to know the following, IF anyother by here could answer this I would appreciate...:
- In recent Bryant Tournament how many times Xantid was not played due to the lack of Initial G Sources?
- Was there any occurrence along the tournament in which there was any need to beeing casted Xantid off C.Mox or Petal?
A thought: We really don't know about each other posting in this thread... I for example know Bryant is a Graphic designer or you Lemnear are an archytect - like my sister! or Bahamut is a physician... I Am a Programmer and I can guarranty you that in my world my opinion is not only had in mind is just the Word Of God among my 'loved' coworkers.... all I want to say is that for me still MTG is a hobby and I just don't have any need to stress myself with such stuff... - I like to contribute as I exposed in the link but I'm not the kind of person that accept any kind of suggestions... For me GEmstones worked long time ago... now they just don't work for me and that's all... I'm starting to face new decks...
@Final Fortune:
Yeah having that Island is non sense...
Recent testing with the manabase - as I thought.... demonstrated the 9th fetch was sometimes useless... the other option instead of Verdant catacombs was Wooded fothills but there is a problem and it is that all these 9th fetch only can search 3 of the 4 main duals... thats why I thought in 1 CoB. as I mentioned BUT having access to total 10 G Sources maybe is not worth so the ideal would be maybe the Base Bryant played... with only 2 C.M and 7 discard...
NOTE: This is what I proposed in the link some time ago....
@Bryant:
Please you won the tournament with almost the Base I proposed.... at least answer me these 4 questions....
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post895991
- In recent Bryant Tournament how many times Xantid was not played due to the lack of Initial G Sources?
- Was there any occurrence along the tournament in which there was any need to beeing casted Xantid off C.Mox or Petal?
- How many D&T did you face?
- Did you face any Stifle.deck?
Thanks.
The post in the link is not even two weeks old. Whats the point? I proposed the first full Fetch/Dual manabase beginning of 2014, which is what I was hinting atQuote:
Originally Posted by Pelikanudo
Except that we're talking 12 vs 13 lands in the maindeck:Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelikanudo
You @ 28.07.2015
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
Bryant @ 22.07.2015
4 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
you proposed the manabase which is 1 land off and a full 6 days after Bryant updated the website with his manabase.
Which is alien to me as the average metagame switch was end of 2013 and had its climax with TC.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelikanudo
has this ever worked? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelikanudo
Some time ago we talked about switching the mana base and one thing we agreed was the following: IF Gemstones are substitued by fetches THEN there is a need to add +1 land (regarding of reaching the same probability of fetch a land with a FetchThatCouldBeAGemstone), this is what I worked on and I believe that at least us - you and me - playing less than 13 lands in a fetchland manabase is nonsense. what Bryant proposed IS nonsense: a Manabase consisting in 12 lands and among them 7 fetches.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
It is nonsense also playing less than 12 Blue producers.
Bryant was toying around with even C.Rituals which is something we din't agree either...
This link also exposes my views of what for me makes sense to play regarding a Fetch Manabase:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post896216
I am always coherent for what I write...
There is a great difference between playing 12 and 13 lands.
Apart, well if you could ask Bryant those questions somehow it would be great... I believe this is something that matters other people...
Apart, I'm worried about the fact that - once I realized I need to change my manabase - that 9 G IMS could not be enough... in one of recent tournaments this happen to me - maybe it was bad luck... that's why I'd like to ask Bryant this.
Note that I haven't yet tested any fetch manabase the unique I started with is 8 fetch 2 U.Sea, 1 V.Island 1 Badlands 1 CoB... as I also haven't had any issue vs BlueAndWasteland.deck...
I don't get the point about Badlands and the lone City of Brass. It's not that Badlands ability to produce B/R has any application to fix the often mentioned Problem of needing B+R during combo turns and is also one of the non - blue sources you hate so much. It doesn't even free a SB slot like the MB Bayou would if your goal is to run 3 Black lands Main.
I wouldn't run less than 13 lands atm, so I agree to some extend, but my Problem was with the claim that you called the "exact" manabase which simply wasn't true and we know that 12 vs 13 matters a lot.
P.S.: Witnessed Bryant dying against Infect in games 2 & 3 because of never finding a second land with his 12 ran
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
T1 discard is a mistake unless you can combo the following turn or KNOW to play against combo, therefore I rarely fetch for U.Sea T1 if I have a second land in hand. On top that I think that T1+T2 discard isn't a common (with 6 discard spells) nor desireable opening for this deck to make Badlands worth including. Pondering off a fetched Volcanic if you just have 1 Fetchland and 1 IMS total in your hand, but a grip full of black cards is nonsense anyways ;)
As mentioned, I prefer Volcanic as my first land unless I have good reasons to get an U.Sea as it is also disguising the deck to some extent. I hate T1 discard vs. Unknown as it's usually a waste unless you can go off T2 and a wasted card/mana, if you just Stare at D&T, Lands or similar (game 1s).
@CoB
If you want to keep 12 blue sources and 10 green postboard it would even make sense to play Tropical instead. Mind, that I don't agree with your stated requirements, but if you want to stick to those, Tropical is your card
Historically, I haven't agreed with Pelikanudo because most of his points are nonsensical.