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Hi there guys^^
I'm very interested about a punishing nicfit decklist, but I only see lists with white and blue :-(
Someone can send me deck lists please?^^
And one question, is white the splash we are looking for? It's viable build a Jund pod fit? (It sounds bad I know)
Regards!
Helo fellow Nic-Fit (want-to-be) player! :smile:Quote:
Originally Posted by Elfkid
I don't really know why there's not more Jund Nic-Fit players out there. Here's decklist I've been rocking with quite some sucess:
4 Veteran explorer
4 Green suns' zenith
4 Cabal therapy
2 Thoughtseize
3 Liliana of the veil
3 Punishing fire
3 Sensei's divining top
2 Abrupt decay
1 Maelstrom pulse
2 Eternal witness
2 Scavenging ooze
1 Thrun the last troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Huntmaster of the fells
1 Batterskull
3 Pernicious deed
4 Verdant catacombs
2 Wooded foothills
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
2 Bayou
4 Grove of the burnwillows
3 Forest
1 Dryad arbor
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Phyrexian tower
1 Volrath's stronghold
Sideboard
1 Duress
2 Pyroblast
1 Red elemental blast
1 Golgari charm
3 Surgical extraction
3 Carpet of flowers
1 Abrupt decay
3 Flexible slots (maybe 4th Carpet, 4th Liliana,1 more single mana discard, maybe some Karakas if you are afraid of the boogey monsters, 0-3 Slaughter games)
Som comments and general pointers:
Deck is certainly strong and capable of winning, but truth be told, it's very slow deck and you have to play fast, or at least take this into consideration (and not allow oponents to play slow, which tends to happen when they overthink their plays against a deck they don't know so good).
Except for the following decks: Elves (darn Natural order), Sneak and Show, 12 post and to some degree storm combo (if you don't hit enough discard or they have the nuts.. and this is non-force of will deck), burn (if they are really fast), Reanimator (especailly pre-board), lands (who plays this anymore??) can be a tad hard to beat, I found any other deck to be a favourable match-up.
If you look closely I play 61 cards.. I just can't decide what to cut.. There's also a singleton Dryad arbor in the list, which I hate with all my heart, but is so often a necessary evil against combo deck when you wiff with cabal therapy and you just need to flash it back just not to die the next turn. That is where you fetch it or zenith for it.
Some might also question the batterskull, especaills since you cannot zenith for it, but I've been very pleased with it. You could consider 2nd Tusk or even Broodmate dragon instead, or maybe 2nd Huntmaster, but... I've found 1 Tusk to be sufficeint, same with Huntmaster and Broodmate although I've been playing it for a long time in my deck I found it to be an overkill. It's still 6 mana and with zenith 7 mana and you feel really silly when you have to play such an expensive spell into daze/spellpierce.. That is why I like my batterskull here :) Some people play Garruk, but... I'm not a fan. 4th Lili in the main does not sound so bad also.
If you really want to cut the Dryad arbor (you almost never really zenith for it on first turn!) I would add another fetch for shuffle value with Top - you need it, there are times when you're just stuck with bad tops.
And don't forget you get bonus points for fetching EOT for Dryad arbor, equipping it to Batterskull and attacking for the win :cool::laugh:
All in all this is a fun, tier 1,5 deck that has a lot of good match-up, but often then not falls short (especially pre-board) to combo decks.
I feel it is quite correct to play 61 cards in this deck. Between the vets getting basics or GSZ getting dudes (or rector getting enchantments) or tops, the card quality is much better then the average non-blue deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Miagi
I consider HoneyT to be an expert on the Pfire list.
Since there seems to be some interest, here's the list I ran at SCG KC:
Punishing Nic Fit
1 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Forest
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Mountain
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Swamp
1 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Broodmate Dragon
2 Eternal Witness
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Primeval Titan
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Punishing Fire
4 Sensei's Divining Top
SB
1 Choke
2 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Slaughter Games
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Thoughtseize
Finished X-3 but don't let that fool you. The list is 100% optimal for the current metagame. My losses came to a punt on my part game 3 vs Storm, RUG Delver god-hands, and mana screw against UWR Delver when I kept an unbeatable Top + 2 lands and never saw a third land in our 8 turn game.
It sucked losing to 3 matchups I consider favorable (especially when one was totally my fault) but that's why we play the games. The list was perfect, sometimes variance happens though.
http://www.starcitygames.com/article...ys-Allure.html
This is sweet. I disagree with a couple of its premises, but it's a pretty nifty hybrid.
I tested vs UWR Delver a bit last night with my current build of Scapewish and have determined a few conclusions:
(list for reference)
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
2 Wood Elves
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Burning Wish
3 Scapeshift
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Batterskull
4 Taiga
2 Stomping Grounds
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
1 Kessig Wolf Run
SB:
3 Slaughter Games
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Thoughtseize
1 Massacre
1 Scapeshift
1 Innocent Blood
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Pyroclasm
--) Batterskull, despite my love affair with it, is bad in Scapewish. It took me a while to process why this is the case.
Scapewish is at its strongest on turns 3-6, otherwise known as the midgame. In the midgame you can leverage your powerful nicfit-enabled options to overpower the opponent, drowning their removal and counters because everything that you have it better than everything that they have. Somewhere towards the end of this phase of the game, you attempt to resolve a 4-mana sorcery and win the game on the spot.
After turn 6 or so, though, blue decks can leverage their card advantage more than Scapewish can -- it starts to draw lands, useless therapies and ramp creatures, and such. Yes, Scape can recover from this with a Top -- but the fact is that blue decks in their current configuration are able to overcome and out lategame Scapewish. Most of the blame for this can be placed squarely on the shoulders of True Name Nemesis. For example, I had a Batterskull vs his Batterskull for a while last night -- and then he just drew a True Name and I lost. The same thing happened with Jitte another game. Another game still, I lost the Batterskull slapfight because he Brainstormed into a Delver, which then flipped and gave him a flying 7/6 lifelink vig.
This is not even mentioning that getting into a Batterskull slapfight at all is not what Scapewish wants, because at some point you're just not going to be able to Shift them anymore. I was perpetually put into a position where I needed 8 lands to shift, sometimes 9 or 10 -- and usually by that point I was running low on mountains in deck.
Conclusion: Scapewish needs either a heftier lategame or an even more powerful midgame to be able to compete with the current iteration of blue decks.
--) The third maindeck Scapeshift is correct.
I had tested this a while ago and eventually cut it in favor of space for a 2-of (rather than only have one open slot). There were times where I'd be choked on multiple Scapeshifts in hand and not have enough lands to actually win yet, rendering them dead. That being said, I was drawing Scapeshift in general with much more regularity and winning games because of it. Sometimes you even have the ability to double-shift -- just run one straight into a Force and proceed to win anyway. This decision plays into the above comment about a more powerful midgame. It increases the deck's consistency another notch, which is something that we periodically can struggle with.
Conclusion: 7 Scapeshifts is better than 6.
--) Wolf Run's existence.
I grapple with this card so much. On paper it always looks amazing and in practice it's always terrible. Like even in theory it's like, oh my god, this is exactly what we want to be doing. It makes all of our ramp dorks threats lategame, which is amazing. It gives Thrag trample. It comes with Primeval Titan and threatens a 2-turn clock if Titan is not answered immediately. It does all of these things.
And yet it does nothing.
You need a creature + Wolf Run itself + 5-6 other lands in play, all at the same time, for Wolf Run to do literal anything. In Punishing Nic Fit, it's a different story because 1: you're a true control deck, which satisfies the latter two conditions, and 2: you're playing Thrun, which all but guarantees the first condition.
In Scapewish, though, you don't have lategame aspirations. You want to end the game by turn 8 at the absolute outside. You won't have time to amass a pile of lands (slash your opponents will actively be trying to stop you from doing such), and you won't have time to draw into Wolf Run. Furthermore, none of your creatures are exactly hale. Titan is the only real beef -- Thrag dies to Bolt and 90% of legacy playable creatures, and Huntmaster dies to even more things. I had an active Wolf Run and could run for 4 at one point last night -- in the face of my opponent's Grim Lavamancer.
Conclusion: Wolf Run is a fine card for a certain class of deck. Scapewish is not in that class of deck.
--) Speaking of Huntmaster...
You may notice that I cut down to 2 Huntmasters, which is something that I said I would never do again the last time I tried it. It was actually fine. I still saw him a reasonable amount. I could still Zenith for him when needed. Etc.
I think that this is mostly a metashift caused by True Name. Huntmaster was crazy good pre-TNN. He's still good now, but he's definitely not -as- good as he once was. I won't cut another Huntmaster, but I'm fine with where he's at now.
Conclusion: 2 Huntmasters is correct for the current meta. Possibly for quite a while pending TNN.
I don't have adequate answers for these problems at the moment. At this time, I consider this change:
-1 Huntmaster of the Fells
+1 Scapeshift
to be canon. That gives us this list:
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
2 Wood Elves
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Burning Wish
3 Scapeshift
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 open slots
4 Taiga
2 Stomping Grounds
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
SB:
3 Slaughter Games
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Thoughtseize
1 Massacre
1 Scapeshift
1 Innocent Blood
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Pyroclasm
What the two maindeck open slots should be, I have no idea. I'm skeptical of adding in more lategame oomph because there is a rather large contingent of Delver decks (Bug / Rug) still present in the meta, and obviously combo decks don't care about lategame. However, if we add in more midgame power, it's going to make us substantially worse if we do go lategame.
-----------------
With this being considered, I think that I'm going to go back very far in my roots and play Rector at the Tales of Adventure huge event on Saturday. I'm very hungry for a top 8, both because I haven't top 8'd an event for a while due to moving and because I would very, very much like to add to my power (I'm at 5/9 right now).
I need to hammer out the list, which I will probably do over the course of the day. Expect another post from me with that later this afternoon.
Variance is a thing...Moreso in a deck without cantrips/additional draws.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
I had a bunch of X-3 results and a semi final with scape a few months ago. But, I would still lose X games, either due to combo.decks or to the inherent deck's mechanism where you need business spells and you see 5 lands (no fetches) of the top during 3 turns (not to mention X losses coming from not finding the Scape for the win)...
I guess 24 lands is a tad "much" in a deck not playing "brainstorm/ponder". I have tried my best but in order to trim some lands:
1) you have to drop a color and this color has to be the black one. But then, the BW package is no longer as powerful...
2) Or you have to replace "black" by "blue" (like in Modern)
You may be a genius.
If only... But maybe we could think of (and I can put some hard testing work behind) a RUG scape list viable in Legacy ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
EDIT: I started back Legacy with one of your scape.list (2 years ago)...damn it feels so good scaping some fools out of nowhere !
4 Veteran ExplorerQuote:
Originally Posted by Ralf
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
2 Wood Elves
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
4 Crack the Earth
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Burning Wish
3 Scapeshift
4 Brainstorm
3 Repeal
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Taiga
2 Stomping Grounds
3 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
2 Island
1 Mountain
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
SB:
3
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Flusterstorm
2 Glen Elendra Archmage
1
1 Scapeshift
1
1 Life's Legacy
1 Void Snare
1 Pyroclasm
This is my initial sketch. Note that this is mostly just taking my Scapewish list and shifting black to blue. Some of the changes are easy, like moving Therapy -> Crack the Earth. Others, like trying to replace Pernicious Deed, are not so easy.
We also need a way to fight counterspells better because we can't Therapy->Shift. Maybe maindeck the Glens?
Also, the sideboard / wishboard will need to be completely redone basically. We also don't have Innocent Blood anymore for the easy Wish->sacoutlet. I think there has to be something better than Life's Legacy, but maybe not. Maybe just cantripping while saccing an Explorer is good enough for 1R+1G?
Still, the idea needs explored for sure. Gaining Brainstorm would be MASSIVE in a deck like this.
Yes, the idea has to be explored.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
Few cards that might be interesting (I forgot about crack the earth...):
- Rapid hybridization (another way to get rid of veteran/annoying crit)
- Cryptic command/Remand
- Vexing Susher (if you want your scape uncounterable)
- Pyroclasm / Devastation tide (the new deed ?)
- Cunning wish/Living wish/burning wish -> which one is the best ?
- FOW (if your blue count reaches 20 cards ?)
My gut feeling is that we shouldn't durdle anymore. Adding blue is to speed up the deck and improve its consistency. Maybe a T4 & T5 protected kill could be an option ?
Devastation Tide is likely better than Repeal as a "deed replacement." I still wouldn't mind having a 2-of Repeal in the deck, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralf
Rapid Hybrid is reasonable I guess? Not sure I like giving them a 3/3, but it's strong when used on our Explorers.
Cryptic is fine but color intensive -- Remand is strictly a Modern toy imo. I would rather run Counterspell or Voidslime.
Shusher is not something I generally consider playable because decks will have removal vs us anyway. Boseiju is stronger, but needs tutored. I guess Brainstorms would help dig for it though.
Burning Wish is still definitely best because it gets Scapeshift imo.
@honeyT: what about bonfire? I think it's good, and we ramp a lot and we have the sdt too to use it via instant
@mr miagi: thanks for the answer there are two sweet decklists, and thanks for the advice about play fast the deck ^^
@all: what about reclamation sage? We don't need the white to use qasali or harmonic and we can recycle it with volrath and cabal therapy and it's gsz targeteable
And what about recurring nightmare and the squirrel master?
Regards and thanks for all the answers^^
-A couple of crop rotation with a very limited tutor package ? => phyrexian tower, Boseiju, karakas, bojuka etc...Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
-Gszing for Susher still gets you "priority" and you do cast "scape" before they get to kill him (well, you need at least 8 lands but it is doable)
- Remand should not be overlooked. You can remand your own scape which could lead to some huge blowouts (ahahah this reminds me when I played Solidarity remanding my own high tide)
If I may:Quote:
Originally Posted by Elfkid
1) Bonfire is a good card. But we can't get rid of it (put it back on top of your library) when it is in your hand.
2) Reclamation sage is in between MD & SB in my punishing list. An all-star against a resolved batterskull/equipment. It can take the "pulse" slot in HoneyT's list, I guess.
3) Recurring nightmare -> I am really reluctant to overcommit the deck into a grave engine, as in most cases, you will likely face a lot of gravehate just because of punishing fire... It is a good card anyway.
Hey, everybody, it's been a long time since i last posted here.
Arianrhod, I've been willing to ask this for some time now: is Crack the Earth really a reliable substitute for cabal therapy? Won't it put Nic Fit in a terrible pinch if it gets countered? I mean, how was it on testing?
Another question i have (to everybody this time) is about Courser of Kruphrix. I play punishing Nic Fit and i wanted to be sure before getting the card: is it really worth the slot? I mean, i recognize how great the card is, providing time and a semi reliable card advantage. And i realize 4 toughness isn't something to be ignored. But on my breath experience with the deck i get the feeling that each and every creature on the list has to be a composing tool of the box GSZ provide, and i can't think of a situation that i'd use one GSZ to fetch Courser of Kruphix (unlike each other creature on the list). Is it really worth it as a one of? In what situation should i zenith for it?
That asked, wouldn't Courser of Kruphix fit nicely on Scapewish as to get rid of topdeck lands whilst gaining life from the constant landrops the deck makes?
[edit: English correction]
Ari, any thought to over masters vs the blue deck?
There is also bound//determined (although in UG).Quote:
Originally Posted by jbone2016
Anyway, I guess it is not a good idea.
If you are to cast scape with a BW in hand (which I presume from your question as overmaster would a 1-of in your SB), I'd go -> BW = therapy/thoughtseize and take the FOW...
Overmaster would only be good only if your opponent has 2 hard counters (Counterspell + FOW + another card to pitch to it) and if your opponent lets you resolve BW (mistake).
There are a lot of "if", not to mention that you have to dedicate a SB slot for overmaster...
Thoughts from someone who has played Scapeshift in Modern for a while...Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
@ Replacing Deed - remember Engineered Explosives! The non-B almost-functional-alternate-deed. Its pretty much good enough to be running maindeck in control decks in Legacy anyway; it is insanely flexible (as we know).
Although I don't like the double R, Volcanic Fallout is also an option for the Delver / Tempo MU (and as a reliable way to remove Explorer). Still, 3cmc is rough.
Repeal is definitely not good enough. There have got to be better options out there. I would prefer just running Lightning Bolt, at the least.
And given the critical importance of Glen Elendra in BUG lists, I would say you'd be foolish not to maindeck it here.
Here's where I'm at on Rector:
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Starved Rusalka
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Eternal Witness
1 Selvala, Explorer Returned
3 Academy Rector
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Baneslayer Angel
1 Thragtusk
1 Scuttling Doom Engine
1 Sun Titan
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Erebos, God of the Dead
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Council's Judgment
1 Vindicate
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
3 Plains
2 Swamp
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
sb: 1 Garruk, Apex Predator
sb: 1 Reclamation Sage
sb: 2 Thoughtseize
sb: 1 Cranial Extraction
sb: 2 Aven Mindcensor
sb: 1 Toxic Deluge
sb: 1 Abrupt Decay
sb: 1 Swords to Plowshares
sb: 1 Nether Void
sb: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
sb: 1 Rule of Law
sb: 1 Moat
Bonfire is awful. It solves no problems the deck has and just creates bad opening hands. Between Pfires, Decays, Deeds, Pulse, and Liliana there is already sufficient removal in the deck without adding a clunky sweeper.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elfkid
Reclamation Sage is also not what the Punishing Fire version wants or needs to be doing. If there's an abundance of MUD in you meta then go nuts, otherwise I'd stay away.
Recurring Nightmare in this deck is a non-tutorable enchantment that does nothing on its own and increases your vulnerability to graveyard hate unnecessarily. That's also why I play Kessig Wolf Run as opposed to Volrath's Stronghold. They do the same job of winning the game. Wolf Run simply does it faster and more efficiently without being further exposed to graveyard hate. In short, stay away from Recurring Nightmare outside of Rector lists.
Lastly, cards have been printed since Urza's Legacy. Sadly Deranged Hermit is simply outclassed nowadays by any other threat.
I was testing Courser of Kruphix for awhile in the Punishing Fire version. It had it's moments of being very good, but ultimately is unnecessary and not worth the slot. It was a fine card to draw naturally most of the time, but there was never a time when I actively wanted to Zenith for it over any other card.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nithkar
I like most of the list, but I think you're getting a little too cute with Scuttling Doom Engine. I can't really think of a scenario when it's better than just having Kokusho.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod