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Originally Posted by wcm8
Just going to post the gatherer text for Recruiter:
"When Goblin Recruiter enters the battlefield, search your library for any number of Goblin cards and reveal those cards. Shuffle your library, then put them on top of it in any order."
The anti-cheating part of the card is already there, just saying.
Okay, fair enough. There *is* still the problem of cheating related to deck manipulation in general, especially when it involves stacking multiple cards and shuffling the remainder. People still manage to cheat when there's a shuffle involved even when it's only for a fetch land activation, so Recruiter being legal could make it even easier for these sort of unscrupulous players to use actual sleight of hand "magic" tricks to their advantage in a legacy tournament. This is part of why Wizards' design team has aimed more towards creating new cards with Scry + Draw instead of Shuffle + Draw, as it reduces the time involved with physically shuffling a deck and the problems associated with shuffling in general.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevestamopz
I just think that a 'fixed' version of Goblin Recruiter should put a numeric limit on the number of Goblins that it could stack, say maybe 2 or 3 (perhaps more if it had a higher cmc). It'd still be really good with Goblin Ringleader as you could chain them together, but at least this way it would make it so the trigger would be more quickly resolved and also maybe reduce the opportunity for 'magicians' to work their 'magic'.
In a way I agree, but fetchlands are legal, Brainstorm is legal. My point being that just because there are some bad eggs out there that will cheat, we can't use them as the baseline for what the average player will do. I feel dirty when I Magus of the Moon someone out of the game, let alone stacking Mindbreak Trap with my Recruiter - which I don't see how you could do to begin with seeing as you would flick all the Goblins out of your deck and onto the table you're playing on, but I digress.Quote:
Originally Posted by wcm8
I'll accept a fixed Recruiter when we get a fixed Deathrite Shaman or True Name Nemesis :wink:
Takes a while. Have only 3 Elves raps to far releasedQuote:
Originally Posted by Lord_Mcdonalds
I play Lands, and Miracles (without Mentors - still a viable and popular deck) is the only non-combo in the Meta that doesn't bombard me with a barrage of threats. Every other "control" deck (Blade, BUG, D&T, etc) are constantly throwing threats after me. Against (non-mentor) Miracles I tend to board out Maze, Chasm, Tabernacle, and most of my Punishing Fires. I would never do this against Legacy's other "control" decks - they are key players in those matches.Quote:
Originally Posted by maharis
So (for the umpteenth time) it's not strictly about having creatures. It's about the style of play and the ability to switch to "beat-down" mode when required. Most "control" decks in Legacy can go aggressive very comfortably. Mentorless Miracles is the only deck so committed to control that it cannot. If you can't see this, all I can say is trying playing Lands or Enchantress for a while.
It's not about being blue or not - Prison is all about pro-active control. Chalice pro-actively counters all spells of the chosen cmc. CB requires the control player to react to spells on the stack - otherwise it's erratic and not very good.Quote:
Originally Posted by maharis
Again, it's about pro-active control like mana-denial. Also RGCL is considered combo/control because it can very easily play a non-combo style game. RUG Lands technically can combo it quickly, but in practice this is the exception and not reliable. Hence RUG Lands is considered a pure control deck (of the prison variety) even though it does play blue.Quote:
Originally Posted by maharis
Incidentally, Stasis is also considered a prison deck, as might a MUC deck which leans heavily on Back To Basics, Standstill, and Propaganda. Prison is all about pro-active control elements.
You don't have to agree with all this, but you could make at least an attempt to understand it. Summarising this position as:
"creatures = not control" & "prison = non-blue control" is wholly unsophisticated and a bit of a straw-man too. It's also frustrating when I explain this over and over but you come back with the same tired bullshit.
TLDR:
Pure control decks are decks which struggle put up a clock they way Zoo and Affinity have trouble playing the controlling role.
Prison decks are control decks which rely heavily on pro-active denial.
Colour is not a defining factor.
I've always liked the Flores classification when discussing decks from his Finding the Tinker Deck article. Lands isn't a Weismann deck as much as it's a Prison/Tinker deck.
I feel like that combo is far too slow, clunky, and vulnerable to fuel a dedicated combo deck. It might work as a finisher in Enchantress, or in a tool-box bant of control deck as you suggest. I seriously doubt such a list would be OP though!Quote:
Originally Posted by wcm8
Combo is ~20% of the meta! Combo is exactly the play-style that needs more (or better) options!Quote:
Originally Posted by wcm8
Unless you are biased against combo. Some players seem to think Legacy would be better if it were overwhelmingly populated by fair decks, and that combo should exist only as fringe decks or tier 2 tier or tier 1.5 pet decks.
Do you want Earthcraft to stay banned because you think it will spawn a dominant oppressive deck, or because it will spawn a deck you do not like? I believe the banned list should not be used to promote one play style over another!
Will this make Elves (currently struggling) OP and dominant, or will it simply lead to some un-fun feel-bad losses? I think Elves could use the boost (as could combo in general) and I imagine Elves will still have enough poor MUs to keep it in check.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
It's not really combo though, it can be...but otherwise it's 1 card (and a single Trop). The previous example was Esper Mentor, but it could just as well be miracles right; there's not a huge difference between 4x SDT/4xCB and 3xSDT/3xCB/2xET or 4xSDT/2xCB/2xET, then they change one of their ~4 basic Island to Trop and all you'd need to do (if for some reason you wanted to) is make 1 cut for Earthcraft. Take every piece of SB hate ET can find and you're basically running 2 additional copies. Does it power up Mentor decks even more? Probably not appreciably, but there's also no real cost. Assembling Mentor + SDTx2 ends games quickly (which is a plus), but if their boardstate is Mentor/SDT + cantrips under Earthcraft no one wants to navigate through that turn (much less even attempt to rewind the board state). Earthcraft is one of those cards that's probably closer to the dexterity/ante/conspiracy bracket where they're not so much banned as collectively chosen to treat as if it were never printed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimhead
TIL that Countertop making my cards uncastable is Control and Chalice making my cards uncastable is Prison. 20 power of Angels pulled from a Miracles player's ass for the win is also somehow very different to using Marit Lage or Mentor or Craterhoof Behemoth for the same. Those same Angels utterly taking over an empty board is also very different from doing it with a Mentor or a lategame ETW.
I learned so much today.
Too much effort. Just cast Show and Tell.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
I can't disagree with you there... I'll just run Mind Shatter instead.Quote:
Originally Posted by wcm8
Counter Ballance doesn't make your spells uncastable without a Top activation or similar response. In fact often they are not uncastable, as (unlike Chalice) this reactive response might fail. How can you not realise this. Presumably you do play Legacy, but even if you dont I've pointed to this difference twice!Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie
But it's a big difference. If you have CB + Top in play, I can dance around it. I "force" shuffles by wasting your fetchlands. I can bait you with one spell only to drive another through with a different cmc. I can try to push spells through in response to your activations or when you've otherwise been spending your mana. Sometime I can cast and pray - you might not have the required cmc card to block it.
Sometimes this doesn't work. Sometimes I can be hopelessly locked out. But the difference is, I can at least try to get my spells through; and that blocking my spells has a constant resource cost for my opponent. Chalice on one will simply lock me out of those spells completely. No trying to bait or outfox the opponent. No further resource cost for the opponent. That's prison.
Closing out a long game where you've focused entirely on defense is different than taking over the board and putting a clock up in the early or mid stages of the game. Angels don't tend to come down till much later than Mentor. This makes for a different style of play, different strategies, and different types of matches. Mentor can take over a board and apply pressure much earlier than Angels, with consistency. This makes the deck play differently.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie
If you disagree, back it up.
Lands can consisyently make a 20/20 by turn four - and is frequently faster. Miracles is typically much slower than this (or Craterhoof). And if you would liken Mentor to Marit Lage or Craterhoof, I want what you're smoking. There's a difference between a creature that can potentially run away with a game vs one that can end the game on the spot.
Funny what happens when ignore core elements of my arguments!Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie
I can't help but disagree here. Mentor + two Tops already basically ends the game (Mentor + two tokens kill from 19 the turn after Mentor is cast if the controller has 5 mana); making the damage actually infinite doesn't change much since even if you have blockers to survive the first attack, the leftover Monks will almost surely be enough to finish the job. from a deckbuilding perspective, trying to 'go off' without Top by chaining cantrips with Jeskai Ascendancy is almost surely easier since it doesn't awkwardly force you into a fourth color or to be Bant. Finally, the complexity of executing any sort of Mentor/Earthcraft combo is no greater than the complexity of the aforementioned Ascendancy combo, or Elves' Glimpse turns, or going off with Spiral Tide, or the turns that Enchantress chains enchantments, or even many combo turns from ANT or TES, and all of these are, and ought to be, permissible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
It's not so much that comparable complexity does not exist, as much as all you really have to do is achieve similar levels of complexity is effectively take a known deck with real cards and change 1 land and put in 1 card (if we can for a moment equate the other 8 pieces of artifact/enchant combo as being effectively the same as 6 pieces and 2 tutors to find them). It shouldn't be done, it's not really advantageous (until sideboard), and you wouldn't really be punished for doing something so arbitrarily unnecessary. This card has for most of its life lacked sufficient build-around requirements in formats whose slots aren't going to power and other vintage must-plays. Is it really worth the risk to help out enchantress? I'm skeptical.Quote:
Originally Posted by btm10
It seems like we're weighing the costs of the unbanning differently. I'd evaluate even the most extreme case with Mentor as a negligible outlier since it just doesn't seem very good relative to any Esper or Jeskai variation, no matter how small the splash. Conversely, I think unbanning Earthcraft makes Enchantress as well positioned as Lands is, meaning that we'd have a top deck where the buy-in is just 3-4 Serra's Sanctum and a bunch of bulk. That's a huge benefit for very little risk.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
When's the next B/R?
July 18.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
Because Survival has actual costs associated with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
1. You need to play a lot of creatures
2. Need to be able to produce a lot of green mana
3. You don't mind adding the price of a Trained Armodon to the first creature you tutor.
You clearly don't want to play it in any tempo deck. Not enough creatures, too slow and never enough green mana. Control decks don't want it. Some midrange decks won't play it, for example you won't run it in Shardless BUG or Aggro Loam. Even Elves doesn't want it, at least the Natural Order versions, because it's too slow. There aren't a lot of decks that fulfill those criteria, clearly it's not the next Aether Vial. Or maybe it is since Vial is only played in three decks: Goblins, Merfolk and D&T. And only the latter is actually good.
The decks that would play Survival of the Fittest aren't particularly scary. As a combo deck, it pales in comparison to Sneak and Show, Infect or Storm. Spamming Vengevines? Slower to setup than most Eldrazi hands which can nut draw and kill you on turn two. Even Grixis and Miracles can go wide. Survival is slow. The meta is a lot faster and more disruptive than it was when SotF was around. Things haven't got any easier. According to TC Decks, Abrupt Decay and Deathrite Shaman are in the Top 10 most played cards in the format. Both are very good against any variant of Survival. Snapcaster Mage wasn't around nor was Phyrexian Revoker or Surgical Extraction.
Survival will certainly be played but it's not out of line with what the rest of the format is doing.
Nor was Griselbrand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Amon Amarth
Exactly. Why dick around with 1G turn 2 and then GGG next turn to attack for 16 when you can go 2U make a 7/7 flying lifelinking bargainQuote:
Originally Posted by iatee
I think becuase the former has a solid aggro back-up plan, while the later has shit.
I'm not saying Survival needs to stay banned. Maybe the format could contain it now. I'm not really sure. But your comparison it to S&T is flawed.
If by "shit" you mean "Sneak Attack or Reanimate plus offensive countermagic", and by aggro, you mean "midrange with Jade Leech in play", you're totally right!Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimhead
Pretty much this.Quote:
Originally Posted by btm10
It's worth noting that Survival's backup plan of Vengevine spam is still vulnerable to GY hate. It doesn't really matter if your on Ooze or Vengevine or giant fatty you're still hosed.
But but but then they can spend another green mana to get a revoker, cast the revoker, then spend more green mana plus another dude in their yard to get a few 4/3's with haste!!!! Turn 3 possible 4 4/3's with haste is very clearly too powerful for this format.Quote:
Originally Posted by Amon Amarth
What's also relevant is that the best and most common graveyard hate used today (Rest in Peace, Surgical Extraction, not to mention Deathrite Shaman which is a maindeck card) was not printed at the time of Survival's banning. Granted the card is still absurdly powerful and you can easily argue it could be too good despite the presence of that hate, but is probably not above the power level of other broken cards given the strength of graveyard hate and other hosers like Revoker can keep it in check. Considering those are already commonly-played cards regardless of whether Survival is in the format, it is probably safe. You might see a slight uptick in Rest in Peace and Surgical Extraction numbers but otherwise I doubt it'd be that drastic of a shift, and it would be a very interesting wrinkle into the metagame against something like Miracles provided Top survives banning as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Amon Amarth
Is it intended that you miss the fact that DRS would be played WITH StoF for a lifedraining/-gaining machinegun, especially as you can tutor several of these back-to-back? Also go on ignoring the option to HARDCAST creatures or TUTOR for R.Sage in response to Revoker.Quote:
Originally Posted by Di
Without offense, but you sound like one claiming, Miracles is easily beatable for creature decks if you land Gaddock Teeg to block Entreat/Terminus willingly ignoring Plowshares and shit just to have a point.
Dear god stop. Ever heared of HARDCASTING creatures? Vengevine is a fine 4 mana haster ... or lets talk about tutoring several DRS, Delver, TrueNameNemesis spread over a few turns. Sounds funny for most decksQuote:
Originally Posted by Amon Amarth
And Survival makes your topdecks insane, since you can replace whatever creature you draw for the one you need. Busted card.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
I wasn't missing that fact, I was merely pointing out that Survival as a card would be far more manageable as there are better and maindeckble options to handle it. Clearly DRS fits in that shell, but that is a pretty sad game against an opposing Rest in Peace too. Obviously the deck has answers to plenty of stuff but that doesn't mean the hate isn't as good. You can make the same argument for any deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
And if you wanted to take my indirect comment about adding a card like Survival (which would itself be fantastic against Miracles) would simply be an interesting addition to the metagame and twist it to imply I suggested it would be an easily beatable matchup, then you are mistaken. That's not including you're rambling on Gaddock Teeg and such, which wasn't mentioned in the first place. However what I was alluding to is that an engine deck that can fight Counterbalance and removal well would be a welcome addition that may not be overpowered due to the resources available.
So without offense, how in the fuck did you take a generic comment about the card and trail it off into a tangent like that? Is that what it's like to actually have discussion on here these days? Holy shit.
I don't have any historical data on inventory levels of the four cards being seriously discussed (Recruiter, Survival, Ecraft, Mind Twist), but a quick look over at SCG shows roughly 8x the stock of Survival as compared to the next closest card. If nothing else, interesting to think about.
I'm not sure how useful it is to talk about Vengevine; that seems like a card that's coming out post-board and might have put you on the Basking Rootwalla plan? What I think is more concerning is that if Survival is unbanned, the competitive decks using it will be 4x DRS, Decay, Survival and the usual toolbox [Rec Sage, Scooze, Meren (?), BGH (potentially?), Vengeful Pharaoh (seems fine right?) - if we're sticking on color]. I'm sure I'm missing a few common pieces in there, but the end effect is likely further entrenching the habit of playing neither green nor black without the other. It's pretty hard to assert that fair decks that play off the top aren't better off playing with recurring tutors; well that, and the fact that the other payoff is turning cutting K-Grip for tutor'd Rec Sage off a Cavern of Souls (this one needs a reprint badly). Realistically you probably also see 2-4x slots for Horizon Canopy as mandatory for SB hatebear tech like Ethersworn, Teeg, etc... Right here let's freeze prices and note we're adding $160 (4x Survival) + $260 (modest 2x Cavern and 2x Canopy) price tag to the speculative best version of a fair deck.
There is probably something of a soft cap on similar slots that goes into B/R updates. For blue that number is around 12 (Bstorm, FoW, Ponder), noting that both times that ceiling was pushed to 16 (Misstep and delve spells) a ban came down shortly after. Survival/DRS/Decay definitely pushes fair decks to that ceiling in a format where you pretty much need to have an uncounterable way to deal with specifically Counterbalance.
If you're hardcasting Vengevines you're fucked. That isn't plan B, that's garbage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Er... why are you tutoring for Delver in your Survival deck? I'm just not going to respond to trolling. Don't discuss anything with me if you can't at least be sincere.
SCG Worcester, July 2016, looks fine to me. Why is there a need to ban?
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...=0&limit=limit
One datapoint does not a trend make. One data point does not a defence make.Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
4/3 haster are "garbage" as a potential plan B? Afaik they are still bigger than Delver, DRS and Batterskull, so I don't think the label is justified.Quote:
Originally Posted by Amon Amarth
@ Delver/DRS/TNN tutoring: I merely mention a few NEW options, since you guys still keep discussing the powerlevel of Surival as if its still 2010 and Iona/Vengevine/KotR is the most ridiculous you can pull off with SotF. Its not trolling to point at the calender and todays Legacy creatures.
Edit:
Its not an honest discussion about SotF, if all I see in this thread are cherrypicked facts without context like "Better graveyard hate exists" without losing a word about "how the powerlevel of creatures increased". Without offense, but its pointless to keep mentioning Rest In Piece over and over, ignoring that its not a maindeck card and that stuff like ReclamationSage, AbruptDecay and a whole new generation of creatures was printed after KotR/Vengevine/Iona. Its like claimimg that Storm is "solved" because Chalice/Counterbalance exist. We know that storm still pushes through RIP/DRS/Chalice/Counterbalance and Survival/Vengevine can do the same by facing a DRS (the same way Storm can execute a PIF loop against DRS).Quote:
Originally Posted by Di
TL;DR: a bit more context for discussing Survival regarding its 2016 and not 2010 anymore would be highly welcome. Its pretty much the same with MindTwist, when people point to Rituals -> MindTwist, ignoring that the actual 2016 fits for the card are Elves, Lands, etc
Edit2:
The fact that most Legacy Maindecks are still unable fight Survival with their maindeck is still as relevant as 5 years ago, when people had to spend half their sideboard to have a shot at winning the postboard games after they got crushed game 1 thanks to lack of MB solutions. Its open for discussion if Revoker or DRS have changed much (considering the post-Vengevine options)
Agree, yet one data point is far better than no data point still.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
This week's questions for the Top 8 at SCG was "Should Sensei's Diving Top be banned in Legacy?"
http://www.starcitygames.com/events/..._profiles.html
What I would be happy about on Eldritch Moon's release:
Legacy: Terminus is banned.
What I realistically expect to happen on Eldritch Moon's release:
Legacy: No changes.
There's tons of data points for how prevalent Miracles is, why would you focus on just a single event? Why does this one Open take precedence over all the other tournaments?Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
Terminus being banned would mean literally every other game you would face elves. No thanks.
Isn't Legacy defined by unbeatable round 1 decks?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Belcher/Oops vs non-FoW
Creature Durdle vs Storm
Sneak and Show vs non-Monster decks
Dredge vs non-DRS
I do not have a problem with a deck being highly favored game 1, as long as the match evens out somewhat post-board. And I agree that having every deck bring 15 cards in to beat a strategy is unhealthy.
So the question is if enough commonly played answers exist for Survival to re-enter society.
Abrupt Decay is a very commonly main-decked card that is a 4-of and deals with Survival. And those decks often also play Deathrite Shaman which is less devastating, but still something that makes it harder for the Survival pilot.
Let's compare Survival decks to Dredge decks. Why is Dredge a 'safe' fringe deck now? DRS is certainly a factor. Plus all sorts of colorless hate (Faerie Macabre, Surgical Extraction, Grafdigger's Cage, Tormod's Crypt). So that would imply that Survival has the ability to play without the graveyard in a manner Dredge cannot, right? Survival's threats are still hard-castable if it comes to that. But since when is hard casting a 4/3 Haste creature for :2::g::g: a problem for Legacy?
I never got to play Legacy when Survival was legal. I am asking the questions above sincerely because if Survival is a safe enough card now, I'd like to see it unbanned.
They will never ban terminus lol. Sensei's divining top + brainstorm are on a much higher power level than terminus. They also enable terminus....good try though.Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthVicious