All B/R update speculation.

It's funny how a stupidly uninteractive design gets printed, metagame goes haywire, and somehow SFM is the culprit? When it was perfectly reasonable before and can be dealt with/mitigated in all manner of ways both standard and more creative.

And yeah, it's not about TNN being in every deck, it's the shitty games and how interesting archetypes get shoved out because you have to deal with the fish. The ground-based game is practically gone. Everything flies, or wins via combo. Or plays the goddamn fish.


re: Suggestion to ban force, add me to the "sell and bail" crowd.

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Originally Posted by Dzra

So from the last SCG, we have:

Blue (10):
4 UWr Miracles (natural predator)
2 Sneak and Show (ignore)
1 American Delver (TNN)
1 ANT (ignore)
1 BUG Delver (ignore/TNN)
1 Esper Deathblade (TNN)

NonBlue (6):
2 Jund
1 Death and Taxes (ignore)
1 Deadguy Ale
1 Elves (ignore)
1 Goblins


Numbers of good anti-TNN cards are also on the rise and could account for the lack of TNN, with 16 Lilianas and 14 Terminus present.

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We have a grand total of 4 decks that do not fit the mold of playTNN/ignoreTNN are 2 Jund, 1 Deadguy and 1 Goblins. Let's see the lists:
Deadguy: 4 Lilianas MAIN in addition to a Gatekeeper with 3 TNN hate cards, 2 ETutors and a Manriki-Gusari in the side.
Goblins is surprisingly normal. 3 Tin Street Hooligans main, 2 KGrips in the side.
Jund: 4 Lilianas in the main, again. Chainer's Edict in one, Golgari Charm in the other. 2 EPlagues in the side for both.

Business as usual, TNN is fine, move along folks. Nonblue decks just have to start with 4 Liliana now, it's fine. The format can deal with it.

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

But that's unnecessary. Force is a fine card that polices the format well enough on its own. Also it allows for decks like Beltcher to exist. There is no reason to take out Force and then go "Well shit, now we have to cut out Beltcher, Opps, TES, Kobolds...."

Force of Will is a service to the format. It's more than a card. I am head and shoulders against shooting the policeman and then asking for Lynch Law to take its place.

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What you're saying is that FoW single-handedly determines what can and cannot exist in the format. Without cards like Fow/Daze (and, to similar degree, Brainstorm) I reckon any Uxy-Delver deck (i.e. over 50% of the current meta, including anything running TNN) pretty much kicks the bucket, other decks (Reanimator/Storm) would have to adapt and a number of new decks would get a chance to see the light of day. A card having such an effect on a meta - isn't that exactly what should be banned?

Or perhaps ban fetchland to make it harder for people to run 3 color good stuff decks? Fetch as a whole also appears in pretty much every deck played.

Dude, I see where you are coming from but I think your question is at a philosophical level. From a practical point of view I think your reasoning is bs. No offense intended.

None taken :smile:.

I like to get people to think outside of their comfort zones. Too bad people prefer to go "Meh, BS" and be done with it.

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Originally Posted by Echelon

None taken :smile:.

I like to get people to think outside of their comfort zones.

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You're not breaking new frontiers here.

This has been suggested or considered before and has pretty much universally been decided that it would really bad. You either ban Force of Will and then ban A TON of other cards, getting rid of tons of deck or you ban Force of Will and fast combo becomes tier 0.

No I think it is a fair point really but I don't have the brain power today to crunch on the idea and figure out why it is OK for some cards to fundementally shape the format and others not :)

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

I disagree. We never had less top performers since the mid 2000's which were Goblins, RUG and Landstill. According to Patricks recent DtB analysis you have to play Miracles, SFM and/or DRS if you want to compete. As mentioned before in this thread, TNN is annoying die to it's lack of interactivity, but the card that is stifling the development of the Legacy metagame is SFM which is in every control and Aggro deck atm (even in Miracles). Pretty much like Tarmogoyf a few years back, but it was clear that people here rather rant about blue cards instead of realizing that there is an issue with hyperefficient, easy splashable threats

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SFM - that's Survival-Vengevine argument... if so the problem is SFM-Batterskull - stupidly overpowered and efficient, otherwise equipment fetching seems fun and interesting (not that I'd ever do so), on the other hand I'd like to see multiple equipment deck again Sea Stompy style...

why banning BS is end of legacy is obv. you significantly cripple both combo and tempo

strict performance related (un)ban like in modern will just result into drop of interest and attendance in legacy

I guess that depends on the role of the card in question. If a card shapes the format but let's many interesting and complex decks exist because of it, that's good. If a card singlehandedly pushes out many interesting and complex decks then it's bad.

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Originally Posted by Will_L

You're not breaking new frontiers here.

This has been suggested or considered before and has pretty much universally been decided that it would really bad. You either ban Force of Will and then ban A TON of other cards, getting rid of tons of deck or you ban Force of Will and fast combo becomes tier 0.

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I would have been surprised to be the first to bring it up and I'm pretty sure other people'll bring it up some time after I do. Without people stating the world was round every now and again, we might still have believed it to be flat. To be honest, I know it's possible I'm calling the world a cube or pyramid by saying a number of cards should be banned but admit, all of this is purely theoretical anyway. For all we know the next dominant deck in a world without Brainstorm/Daze/FoW is the deck running 56 Plains and 4 Squires.

The only way to find out what would really happen is to actually go and do it. Until then the world of MtG Legacy might indeed already be the sphere we think to perceive it to be but at the same time it could be a cube or pyramid for all that matters.

Anyways, enough philosophical stuff for now.

Edit:

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

I guess that depends on the role of the card in question. If a card shapes the format but let's many interesting and complex decks exist because of it, that's good. If a card singlehandedly pushes out many interesting and complex decks then it's bad.

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Thank you for that wonderful reaction :smile:

Edit 2:

Thinking about my own post, I had the following idea - WotC should introduce some sort of Future League (similar to the ones they run during set/block development) where they test bannings and their effects on the meta as discussed on forums like this to determine whether a ban would or would not be beneficial to the format. That way, the ideas uttered here can be given backing by a form of empyrical evidence and may even eventually be put into effect for actual sanctioned tournaments.

That's a fine idea, but it's more likely that magic online would be fixed before money is spent on that. Now ask online players what the likelihood of the first point happening is.

I know :)

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Originally Posted by Zombie

Business as usual, TNN is fine, move along folks. Nonblue decks just have to start with 4 Liliana now, it's fine. The format can deal with it.

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How is asking for decks like Maverick, Goblins, etc to play 4 Liliana fine? If you have reasons that go beyond what ideas I can muster then feel free to explain.

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Originally Posted by mishima_kazuya

How is asking for decks like Maverick, Goblins, etc to play 4 Liliana fine? If you have reasons that go beyond what ideas I can muster then feel free to explain.

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I take it you're not familiar with sarcasm..?

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Originally Posted by HSCK

Or maybe it's just not the Legacy ending card a lot of people scream it is. It's almost as if the metagame has adjusted to it, is that even possible!?

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Looks like. I was one of the guys thinking it would warp the format in a very negative way, but it seems that I was wrong. It did change legacy by making Canadian not the best deck (about time) and turning shardles BUG into BUG Delver. The good thing is, decks running TNN are imo not among the top 3 decks of the format. Mostly Jund and Miracles keep it in check. As for now I think the format is very diverse and fun to play with the downside of TNN being very often a blowout/unfun card (I still don't like TNN).

If I could make changes to the B/R list I would unban a bunch of stuff, but according to my standards no bannings are necessary.

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

But that's unnecessary. Force is a fine card that polices the format well enough on its own. Also it allows for decks like Beltcher to exist. There is no reason to take out Force and then go "Well shit, now we have to cut out Beltcher, Opps, TES, Kobolds...."

Force of Will is a service to the format. It's more than a card. I am head and shoulders against shooting the policeman and then asking for Lynch Law to take its place.

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I'm sorry, but where in my post did I ever say that force of will should be banned?

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Originally Posted by catmint

Looks like. I was one of the guys thinking it would warp the format in a very negative way, but it seems that I was wrong. It did change legacy by making Canadian not the best deck (about time) and turning shardles BUG into BUG Delver. The good thing is, decks running TNN are imo not among the top 3 decks of the format. Mostly Jund and Miracles keep it in check. As for now I think the format is very diverse and fun to play with the downside of TNN being very often a blowout/unfun card (I still don't like TNN).

If I could make changes to the B/R list I would unban a bunch of stuff, but according to my standards no bannings are necessary.

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I think it is has warped the format in a negative way still but not as bad as people thought it would. My argument for how it has warped the format negatively is that Death and Taxes and Elves have been under performing since that card came out. I never played those decks, but it was nice having a decent amount of Tier one non-blue options in a blue dominated format. They are still good decks but more like Tier 1.5 at this point. I'm of the mind currently where I would be happy to see TNN go but I wouldn't be pissed if it stayed either. The format is still skill intensive and fun to play.

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

I'm sorry, but where in my post did I ever say that force of will should be banned?

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Sorry mate. I am on my phone and I was trying to answer Echelon. I must have hit the wrong post to quote. My apologies.

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Originally Posted by Dragonslayer_90

My argument for how it has warped the format negatively is that Death and Taxes and Elves have been under performing since that card came out.

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I love this kind of reasoning! If it's bad for Elves, ban it! Power to the little green men! :laugh:

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Originally Posted by Echelon

None taken :smile:.

I like to get people to think outside of their comfort zones. Too bad people prefer to go "Meh, BS" and be done with it.

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That would be interesting if only it wasn't debated to hell and back by Dr. Jones and pretty much everyone understood that it would be the worst thing ever to happen to legacy. You'd basically get a Modern-long ban list for no reason if not to reduce interactivity because apparently interactivity is bad and everyone should just play creatures, even better if you can't interact with them, thx shitzard.

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Originally Posted by Echelon

I take it you're not familiar with sarcasm..?

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How embarrassing, I just reread his post and now it makes sense. But in my defense I had just woken up. :tongue: