All B/R update speculation.

I don't understand why people are looking at a single Top 8 and declaring anything. Sure, SCG Seattle only had 1 copy of TNN in the Top 8, but what of SCG St. Louis (2-23-14)? That Top 8 featured 11 copies of TNN maindeck, with 3 more copies in the sideboard. So what does that tell you? Absolutely NOTHING as it's silly to try to draw conclusions and form opinions based off a single Top 8... talk about high variance due to small sample size, jeesh.

Also, as Zilla stated, it's always been far less about the statistics than it is about the "unfun" factor, but since nobody in the "Would You Like To See TNN Go Away" thread wanted to use the "unfun" factor, even though it's been used by Wizards before as reason to ban something, we are left with using statistics only. I have the adjusted Jan-Oct 2013 data for what the true Legacy meta looked like pre-TNN, does anyone have Nov 2013-current adjusted data so that we can compare?

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Originally Posted by Gheizen64

You'd basically get a Modern-long ban list for no reason if not to reduce interactivity because apparently interactivity is bad and everyone should just play creatures, even better if you can't interact with them, thx shitzard.

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So... 0 CC counterspells are the only interactive cards in the entirety of MtG..? Lol.

I think we've got the problem right there, thank you for pointing it out :smile:

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

Sorry mate. I am on my phone and I was trying to answer Echelon. I must have hit the wrong post to quote. My apologies.

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Fair. I'm not saying in my post about counterspells becoming the most generic answer that anything should be banned necessarily. I'm simply stating that blue becoming so heavily played could be because counterspells are the best generic answer to all of the different threats that the format can throw at you.

If Force is banned I would be disappointed. There are non force answers to fast combo, but non are as elegant and simple as force of will. Without that you have to turn to narrow things like Leylines. Or Mindbreak Trap.

Because we have attention spans of a goldfish and that's the latest point of data? Maybe it's because it reinforces some people's views therefore it's the most important point of data? Not sure all I know is that I am lucky I have a good att... Oh a butterfly, Brb.

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

There are non force answers to fast combo, but non are as elegant and simple as force of will. Without that you have to turn to narrow things like Leylines. Or Mindbreak Trap.

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Exactly! You're pretty much saying the same thing as Gheizen :).

I say bring it on and accept that your 75 can't have the answer to everything. Variance is a female dog!

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

Because we have attention spans of a goldfish and that's the latest point of data? Maybe it's because it reinforces some people's views therefore it's the most important point of data? Not sure all I know is that I am lucky I have a good att... Oh a butterfly, Brb.

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I just find it lolworthy that when SCG St. Louis was over, none of the anti-TNN posters said anything in here as I thought it was understood by all that ONE Top 8 does not make the format. But when SCG Seattle is over? All of the TNN fanboys start talking about how well the format has "adjusted" to TNN and how ONE Top 8 = format forever.

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Originally Posted by Echelon

D&T just got booted out of the DtB-section, so there goes that point.

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I blame the sample size due to the low number of tournaments. D&T placed 2nd in the latest SCG Open and thrives on MODO.

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Originally Posted by Sloshthedark

why banning BS is end of legacy is obv. you significantly cripple both combo and tempo

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Miracles might have some trouble, but otherwise, "crippling" is an overstatement - most decks would just happen to run other cantrips. Blue players would lose their 4 copies of "get free out of jail" card, because that's exactly what Brainstorm is most of the time.

I think it's an interesting topic - how much more appropriate would Brainstorm have been if it had been a sorcery instead of an instant?

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Originally Posted by Barook

I think it's an interesting topic - how much more appropriate would Brainstorm have been if it had been a sorcery instead of an instant?

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It's an irrelevant topic. Fact of the matter is that Brainstorm always has been and forever will be an instant.

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Originally Posted by Echelon

I love this kind of reasoning! If it's bad for Elves, ban it! Power to the little green men! :laugh:

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I love these kind of straw man arguments. If you're trying to be funny I'm not entertained. If you actually read my post I was merely pointing out an example of the negative warping TNN has caused. Whether that's a reason to consider TNN for banning, I don't know, probably not. There would need to be more to be taken into account than merely some decks becoming bad in the meta (if Death and Taxes and Elves are bad in the meta that is).

Brainstorm as a Sorcery? Give it its own thread if you want that debate. Let's try and kill Brainstorm as a topic in this one. It never goes anywhere and no ones opinions on the subject are going to change.

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Originally Posted by Dragonslayer_90

I love these kind of straw man arguments. If you're trying to be funny I'm not entertained. If you actually read my post I was merely pointing out an example of the negative warping TNN has caused. Whether that's a reason to consider TNN for banning, I don't know, probably not. There would need to be more to be taken into account than merely some decks becoming bad in the meta (if Death and Taxes and Elves are bad in the meta that is).

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Don't be offended :smile:, I'm an Elves-man, your post made me smile.

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Originally Posted by Echelon

Don't be offended :smile:, I'm an Elves-man, your post made me smile.

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Oh okay lol. Glad to know my post was appreciated from one of the peoples of the forest :laugh:

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

Brainstorm as a Sorcery? Give it its own thread if you want that debate. Let's try and kill Brainstorm as a topic in this one. It never goes anywhere and no ones opinions on the subject are going to change.

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Oh I've seen people make complete u-turns on this as they begin to understand the format for what it is or their collections grow :)

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Originally Posted by catmint

Looks like. I was one of the guys thinking it would warp the format in a very negative way, but it seems that I was wrong. It did change legacy by making Canadian not the best deck (about time) and turning shardles BUG into BUG Delver. The good thing is, decks running TNN are imo not among the top 3 decks of the format. Mostly Jund and Miracles keep it in check. As for now I think the format is very diverse and fun to play with the downside of TNN being very often a blowout/unfun card (I still don't like TNN).

If I could make changes to the B/R list I would unban a bunch of stuff, but according to my standards no bannings are necessary.

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Uh, the format still looks an awful lot like "traditional ground game is dead, play TNN, ignore it or lose". It was never about TNN being in every deck. It was simply games becoming worse because TNN takes over gamestates for minimal investment and is hard to hate out. Other decks deal with it by becoming more uninteractive.

I'm amazed to see so many people voting for Lion's Eye Diamond.
It's a niche choice, it's the shell's you see this card are in, that people hate, not this card I think.

TNN has done damage to the format > but not in any way different to DRS, SFM, Bob or any of the other cards worthy of the legacy staple tag. I don't see it being ban worthy.
I don't play the card myself btw, just against it. So yeah, I completely get the hate around this card.
TNN loves SFM. But here's plenty of cards that work well with SFM..... but why is no-one suggesting SFM? If SFM wasn't around, I doubt TNN would even be considered for a ban by anyone.
But banning SFM isn't necessary, is it? I don't think TNN is format fracturing > it's just better than Geist of St.Traft. and gives Stoneblade a serious finisher.
Just sayin.

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Originally Posted by Zombie

Uh, the format still looks an awful lot like "traditional ground game is dead, play TNN, ignore it or lose". It was never about TNN being in every deck. It was simply games becoming worse because TNN takes over gamestates for minimal investment and is hard to hate out. Other decks deal with it by becoming more uninteractive.

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What traditional ground game? Those strategies aren't even that good in Modern, and Legacy is a much bigger step up in terms of power.

Catmint's post reminds me, I don't get why Shardless BUG turned into Team America after the introduction of TNN. I think Shardless has better game against StP decks and still buries any SFM based aggro-control deck in card advantage.

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Originally Posted by Higgs

Catmint's post reminds me, I don't get why Shardless BUG turned into Team America after the introduction of TNN. I think Shardless has better game against StP decks and still buries any SFM based aggro-control deck in card advantage.

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Because cascading Shardless Agent into Tarmogoyf gets a laugh from an opponent with SFM and TNN. There is no way tarmogoyf can get past TNN+Jitte+Batterskull ... not even the cardadvantage can make up for that hopeless ground battle. Tombstalker and Delver fly over Skull and TNN ... easy as that

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Originally Posted by Higgs

Catmint's post reminds me, I don't get why Shardless BUG turned into Team America after the introduction of TNN. I think Shardless has better game against StP decks and still buries any SFM based aggro-control deck in card advantage.

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Tombstalker > TNN, is the biggest reason. TA also has a stronger game against the decks that do well against TNN/SFM decks than Shardless does.

Still, with 3-4 maindeck Lilianas and turning into an even more controllish deck post board with Charms and Deluge I think Shardless is still a good choice to fight fair grindy matches. Anyways, sorry for the derail.