Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
I had only tested it vs Miracles, where it got Fow'd. My concern vs Miracles in particular is losing the Monarch status to surprise Snapcaster beats. If they manage to steal the crown, it's basically like they have a Jace out. I'd rather have Banisher Priest vs Eldrazi since you need the effect quickly + out of Aether Vial and the chance of them getting through with a creature is pretty high. It's a weird effect, obviously planeswalker-level powerful when it's good, but it's hard to judge the downside since it's really abstract and dependent on boardstates. With Eldrazi as the most popular deck in legacy, I would prefer to have Banisher Priest *and* this guy in my 75 and mostly consider him a planeswalker/Cataclysm card advantage bomb rather than a removal spell with upside.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Has anyone tried Stillmoon Cavalier for the mirror? I know equipment is often the most important factor in the mirror, but built in pro-everything is great both with and against the equipment plan.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Patrunkenphat7
Has anyone tried Stillmoon Cavalier for the mirror? I know equipment is often the most important factor in the mirror, but built in pro-everything is great both with and against the equipment plan.
It just dies to SOFI and Jitte and can't block when you don't have mana open, Mirran Crusader attacks or Mom gives the equipped creature protection. Not a D&T player here, but my logic always is that you want to avoid narrow sb-slots that are only good in a single matchup unless that deck is common and you're unfavored against it. It might be good in a local meta but definitely not if you want to be able to beat most of the 50-ish established Legacy decks.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
@iatee are you still on the ghostquarter main/sb plan, cutting 1 port maindeck? ive actually played your land configuration in some local events with good success, yet sometimes i just feel forced to waste/ghost quarter their lands instead of ramping up to 3 (which is possible with port while still denying mana) which sometimes causes problems as my list is pretty 3 drop heavy. have you considered running 4 ports 2 quarters main instead of 3 ports?
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Patrunkenphat7
Has anyone tried Stillmoon Cavalier for the mirror? I know equipment is often the most important factor in the mirror, but built in pro-everything is great both with and against the equipment plan.
I have, and it usually dominates that matchup. If you expect the mirror a lot, having a copy in your 75 will be good for you. Only downside is that you can't give it _additional_ protection with Mother of Runes yourself.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Patrunkenphat7
Has anyone tried Stillmoon Cavalier for the mirror? I know equipment is often the most important factor in the mirror, but built in pro-everything is great both with and against the equipment plan.
I tried it also. Decent for Miracles too, as long as it sticks it forces them to Terminus. On the other hand, I found it more useful to have Paladin en-Vec for Jund, as they can't touch him with removal. 'Headless Horseman' dies to Bolts all the time. But I still got a couple in my binder.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
deucegg
@iatee are you still on the ghostquarter main/sb plan, cutting 1 port maindeck? ive actually played your land configuration in some local events with good success, yet sometimes i just feel forced to waste/ghost quarter their lands instead of ramping up to 3 (which is possible with port while still denying mana) which sometimes causes problems as my list is pretty 3 drop heavy. have you considered running 4 ports 2 quarters main instead of 3 ports?
I'm still going back and forth on numbers, I think ultimately they've gotta be a metacall. 4 Ports 2 Quarters 4 Waste means you're at 25 land unless you drop a colored source and 25 is quite a lot...even with all the 3 drops, I think 24 is a tiny bit high. In any case, you always have the option to sit on your GQ/Wastelands for a few turns if you need to cast a 3 drop.
Yesterday I ran a pretty normal manabase with 2 GQ in the SB since my local store has de-Eldrazied a bit. That might be a better compromise. Or maybe 4 Port/1 Quarter/4 Waste, 2 GQ in the SB - doesn't commit as much in the main, but still gives you the 7 Wasteland + 7 STP plan post-board for Delver/Eldrazi/Lands/Infect decks.
So something like this:
Manabase:
7 Plains
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Flagstones
4 Wasteland
4 Port
1 GQ
3 Karakas
2 Cavern
SB:
2 RIP
2 GQ
3 Path
2 Cataclysm
1 Ethersworn
1 Relic Warder
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Containment Priest
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Mirran Crusader
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Hi all,
Just thought I'd share my two pence worth.
Went up to UK eternal weekend at manaleak last weekend.
Came first in the Swiss at 7-1 (three tables before me IDed), unfortunately lost in the quarter finals.
Attendance was around 80 players I believe.
This was my list:
Creatures (26)
4 Mum
4 Thalian GoT
4 Stoneforge
2 Serra Avenger
3 Revoker
3 Flickerwisp
3 Sanctum Prelate
2 Recruiter oTG
1 Banisher Priest
Non-creature spells (11)
4 STP
4 Vial
1 Batter
1 Jitte
1 SoFI
Lands (23)
2 Cavern
3 Karakas
4 Port
4 Waste
10 plains
Let me just say at this stage that I only realised after the event that I was running 23 lands... Even though I wrote a deck list I didn't spot it :rolleyes:
Sideboard:
3 RIP
2 Path
2 Gideon AoZ
1 Councils Judgement
1 Pithing Needle
2 Canonist
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Intrepid Hero
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
I have never written a match report let alone a full blown tournament so I'm afraid all I can offer at this stage is an overview. I will be grabbing a notebook to carry around with me in future and making a point of scribbling summaries after games in future if you guys think this is of any value.
In total during the seven rounds of Swiss I faced the following opponents (in no particular order)
Grixis delver
Eldrazi
UB reanimator
Infect
Miracles (my one loss)
Leylines
RUG delver (I think) - win and in... I was knackered at this stage and the guy wasn't playing great... He had Goyf and shaman... He didn't really put up a fight
Smashed through all the opponents without too much bother but conceded to Miracles piloted by Kayure from team Axiom (he won a GP... Decent player). I wasn't going to win through Jace and mentor but could have pushed it into a draw... Wanted a coffee though so hey "fuck it"!
Lost in the quarter finals agains a guy called Mark piloting Miracles. He's a beast!
I over extended into a terminus and didn't use my prelates wisely.
Also generally I find Miracles hard to beat when it's piloted by someone solid. If they're not proficient it's easy as hell but I need more experience testing and boarding against the deck.
Advice welcomed :smile:
Main deck Banisher Priest over performed in loads of match ups! Definitely a permanent feature of my list moving forward providing the meta dictates the necessity for removal.
I feel like the main deck is solid. I'd take out the 23rd land (10th plains) and add a fourth Flickerwisp. I was attempting to keep the curve as low as possible as I feel that the three-heavy builds lose a lot of the speed and aggression that works to our advantage. In my opinion it's ok if I force my opponent to spend resources dealing with two drops so I can jam a Prelate and assemble a soft-lock. However in retrospect the fourth Flickerwisp is needed and so much more important now we have the new toys.
I'm rubbish at side boarding and need to get into the routine of preparing properly.
I know I boarded badly in a few games.
The Pontiff if cheesy I know but when he works he is hilarious. Kill multiple true-name or pyro tokens etc.
I'm sad to say I wish he was a second councils judgement though.
Intrepid Hero is solid as hell! Takes Eldrazi apart while also having good collateral against reanimator etc.
The sideboard sword is great.
Relic warder is dodgy but better than running multiple disenchants in my opinion.
Random ideas:
Miranda Crusader... I miss him! Anyone running him in the board?
Grand abolisher Vs miracles?
Kambal, Consul of Allocation... I know he has so much competition for the three slot and his effect is ancillary considering we have Canonist and Thalia but could he be good vs Miracles or Delver decks? I seem to always get Miracles to <5 life before they stabilise and pull the game back, jam him turn three and he's bound to at least get 4 drained before he goes.
What do you all think?
Miracles advice would be great, as would all constructive criticism.
Also, anyone got a method that they use to take notes for event reports? My memory isn't great with details!
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesFlipside
Hi all,
Just thought I'd share my two pence worth.
Went up to UK eternal weekend at manaleak last weekend.
Came first in the Swiss at 7-1 (three tables before me IDed), unfortunately lost in the quarter finals.
Attendance was around 80 players I believe.
This was my list:
Creatures (26)
4 Mum
4 Thalian GoT
4 Stoneforge
2 Serra Avenger
3 Revoker
3 Flickerwisp
3 Sanctum Prelate
2 Recruiter oTG
1 Banisher Priest
Non-creature spells (11)
4 STP
4 Vial
1 Batter
1 Jitte
1 SoFI
Lands (23)
2 Cavern
3 Karakas
4 Port
4 Waste
10 plains
Let me just say at this stage that I only realised after the event that I was running 23 lands... Even though I wrote a deck list I didn't spot it :rolleyes:
Sideboard:
3 RIP
2 Path
2 Gideon AoZ
1 Councils Judgement
1 Pithing Needle
2 Canonist
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Intrepid Hero
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
I have never written a match report let alone a full blown tournament so I'm afraid all I can offer at this stage is an overview. I will be grabbing a notebook to carry around with me in future and making a point of scribbling summaries after games in future if you guys think this is of any value.
In total during the seven rounds of Swiss I faced the following opponents (in no particular order)
Grixis delver
Eldrazi
UB reanimator
Infect
Miracles (my one loss)
Leylines
RUG delver (I think) - win and in... I was knackered at this stage and the guy wasn't playing great... He had Goyf and shaman... He didn't really put up a fight
Smashed through all the opponents without too much bother but conceded to Miracles piloted by Kayure from team Axiom (he won a GP... Decent player). I wasn't going to win through Jace and mentor but could have pushed it into a draw... Wanted a coffee though so hey "fuck it"!
Lost in the quarter finals agains a guy called Mark piloting Miracles. He's a beast!
I over extended into a terminus and didn't use my prelates wisely.
Also generally I find Miracles hard to beat when it's piloted by someone solid. If they're not proficient it's easy as hell but I need more experience testing and boarding against the deck.
Advice welcomed :smile:
Main deck Banisher Priest over performed in loads of match ups! Definitely a permanent feature of my list moving forward providing the meta dictates the necessity for removal.
I feel like the main deck is solid. I'd take out the 23rd land (10th plains) and add a fourth Flickerwisp. I was attempting to keep the curve as low as possible as I feel that the three-heavy builds lose a lot of the speed and aggression that works to our advantage. In my opinion it's ok if I force my opponent to spend resources dealing with two drops so I can jam a Prelate and assemble a soft-lock. However in retrospect the fourth Flickerwisp is needed and so much more important now we have the new toys.
I'm rubbish at side boarding and need to get into the routine of preparing properly.
I know I boarded badly in a few games.
The Pontiff if cheesy I know but when he works he is hilarious. Kill multiple true-name or pyro tokens etc.
I'm sad to say I wish he was a second councils judgement though.
Intrepid Hero is solid as hell! Takes Eldrazi apart while also having good collateral against reanimator etc.
The sideboard sword is great.
Relic warder is dodgy but better than running multiple disenchants in my opinion.
Random ideas:
Miranda Crusader... I miss him! Anyone running him in the board?
Grand abolisher Vs miracles?
Kambal, Consul of Allocation... I know he has so much competition for the three slot and his effect is ancillary considering we have Canonist and Thalia but could he be good vs Miracles or Delver decks? I seem to always get Miracles to <5 life before they stabilise and pull the game back, jam him turn three and he's bound to at least get 4 drained before he goes.
What do you all think?
Miracles advice would be great, as would all constructive criticism.
Also, anyone got a method that they use to take notes for event reports? My memory isn't great with details!
What other decks were in the Top 8?
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesFlipside
Hi all,
Miracles advice would be great
A lot of people ITT would tell you that Miracles was a reasonably good matchup before, and an easy one now that DnT has access to Prelate and Recruiter.
The simple truth is that you'll lose most games where you don't have an Aether Vial AND a good amount of resilient disruption going (such as Port + Thalia + Karakas, or Port + Revoker + active Mom) against competent Miracle players. Prelate and Recruiter are fine cards against them, but updated lists have too many ways to deal with a resolved Prelate (Judgement, Explosives, Kozilek's, Jacebounce) for it to stick most of the times, and the card advantage of recruiter, while handy as a supplement to your main disruption elements, is not enough on its own to keep up with their more powerful forms of CA such as Terminus, Jace, Entreat, Mentor, Snapcaster, or card quality (cantrips, top).
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesFlipside
report
congratz on the finish ! about the miracles matchup i tend to grind them out with 1 or 2 creatures at the time, and always go get the SoFI, wich it turns every single creature in a must answer card, this way you should get a great source of card advantage or a lot of 1 for 1 wich is good for you. However there arenīt much we can do against a good timed entreat or a late game mentor&top, so they can steal games that way of course, but i think its a favorable matchup now.
my last 2 matches against miracles i won 2 games where my opp had 17 and 16 cards in the deck. one game was won with just a thalia, cavern and karakas with SoFI on the table, he was diggin for every answer in his deck and i had a plenty of time to have a full grip of threats, but after multiple turns dodging stw and terminus the game was over.
to conclude iīm testing paace jailer wich helps to provide some card advantage, iīm not sold on it already but itīs been okay so far.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Played last night for the first time in a while. I dropped Avengers and went back up to 3 Caverns, and the only time I regret it was when I was getting Wastelanded to death and couldn't find a Plains, but it didn't color screw me otherwise. I was also pretty happy with the creature package, although my relationship with Recruiter is still iffy. I also did not see THC all night, which was a bummer as I'm still trying to give her a chance.
4 Mom
4 SFM
4 TGT
2 THC
4 Flickerwisp
3 Revoker
2 Sanctum Prelate
2 Recruiter
1 Mirran Crusader
Prelate single handedly won me games against Lands, which I played twice last night. Both were on the Rishadan Port and Punishing Fire package instead of the newer Ghost Quarter lists. I had a funny moment in one game where I had Prelates on both 1 and 2, and the opponent goes "so you're locked out of your Swords?" I didn't realize I did that so I shrugged and agreed. He makes Marit Lage at my EOT, swings to attack, and I vial in a Flickerwisp. I was very happy I went back up to 4 of them as they were great last night.
RG Lands: 1-1-1 (probably would have lost G3 but we went to turns)
Miracles: 2-0 (new player borrowing the deck, G1 Prelate on 1 locked him, G2 he got mana screwed)
Burn: 2-0 (new player and had really bad draws; unanswered Batterskull carried away both games)
RG Lands: 2-1 (G1 Prelates on 2 and 1 bought me enough time plus the timely Flickerwisp, G2 he had a quick Lage, G3 went on for probably 30-40 minutes but I was able to grind him out with Mirran Crusader attacking through his Tireless Tracker when I had opportunities to either Port or Flicker his Maze of Ith)
Over the last two months I've been spending a lot of time playing other decks, particularly Maverick, but last night reminded me why I love D&T so damn much.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
I have a friend who wishes to make DnT their entry into Legacy. The issue is, he has been a standard player up until this point. Is there any kind of "Watered down" lists that would be good for a newer player finding their feet, or should I just throw him in the deep end and prop him up as best I can myself in the short term?
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
To the deep end!
I feel like if he'd want a watered down list then Maverick would be better - it has some of the tricks of D&T but can also just beat down with Knights.
As you know D&T needs a decent knowledge of the format as a whole as a big part of your game plan is neutralizing your opponent's biggest threats while playing around others, so if you don't know what else is out there it gets difficult. I jumped headfirst into Legacy with D&T and it was a hell of a learning curve. Dropping a Revoker against ANT and not knowing what to name because you aren't familiar with the deck feels real bad when you pass the turn it's followed by multiple LEDs and Lotus Petals.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Everyone's different, but here are some thoughts.
D&T has a ton of both internal and external interactions, and knowledge of the meta and of particular matchups is particularly important. What CMCs and cards do you name with Prelate and Revoker? What equipment/creatures do you fetch? When do you play a control vs aggro role? Do you know how the answers to those questions change not just based on matchup but also depending on the board state?
I hope that your friend likes control archetypes, likes decks with tons of interaction, and is a fast learner. Those factors will make D&T a more reasonable first deck choice. Otherwise, they may get overwhelmed and give up.
As for easier versions of the deck, things were simpler when we ran 4 Avengers and 3 Crusaders. In general, the more full playsets and 3x cards you have in your deck, the easier the deck is to handle. Toolboxes are hard to pilot. The introduction of Recruiter and Prelate result in more decisions to make. I'm not advocating for returning to the more aggressive build in general, though it is an option for a newer player.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dice_Box
I have a friend who wishes to make DnT their entry into Legacy. The issue is, he has been a standard player up until this point. Is there any kind of "Watered down" lists that would be good for a newer player finding their feet, or should I just throw him in the deep end and prop him up as best I can myself in the short term?
As an entry into Legacy I think more of the straight forward lists would be better. I'd suggest maybe something with Leonin Arbiters with all the fetches, SFM, Recruiters, and random other tutor cards. Leaving most of the tricks to start with being Flickerwisps, and possibly Mangara/Karakas along with the typical AEther Vial shenanigans. I'd recommend holding off on the Recruiters until he gets a little more familiar with the format, but of course keep in the SFM as it's insanely powerful and I'd suggest Manriki-Gusari in the board with all the D&T around.
Being thrown into the deep end with this deck is a great way to learn it if you already have some knowledge of the format. My first foray into the D&T awesomeness was round 1 game 1 after talking about it with a couple friends the night before. Ended up beating the only person who beat me in the swiss in the finals ^_^ But then I had been playing Legacy for quite some time before playing the deck, and I was learning new little tricks here and there for the next couple years in tournaments.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dice_Box
I have a friend who wishes to make DnT their entry into Legacy. The issue is, he has been a standard player up until this point. Is there any kind of "Watered down" lists that would be good for a newer player finding their feet, or should I just throw him in the deep end and prop him up as best I can myself in the short term?
I would go with a "Deep End" list and see if you can get a 3rd strong pilot to test the meta against, then you can coach your friend 2v1 in how major match ups play and what our deck of answers best address opponents/board states. IE get someone to play a gauntlet - Miracles, Shardless, Storm, SnT, Eldrazi, Elves etc (proxied if need be) and kind of outline the best cards in the deck against them, help them with mulliganing (does their hand address the opp's strategy), what to pull up with SFM/Recruiter, what to Revoker/Prelate targets are likely present in the opp's deck, and how to SB what does/doesn't matter, what they're likely to bring in, etc.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
NeckBird
What other decks were in the Top 8?
Here's the coverage article with lists
http://www.manaleak.com/mtguk/2016/1...age-oldschool/
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
I felt rather triumphant in G3 of a round against an Esper Deathblade deck last night, after getting crushed G2 with True Name Nemesis and an Engineered Plague on Human.
My board in G3 was Aether Vial on 3, Mom, SFM, Thalia GT, and Revoker naming Engineered Explosives (which was on 1). I have a Batterskull, Flickerwisp, and Mirran Crusader in hand. My opponent has nothing else on board except about 4 or 5 lands and the EE. He drops Engineered Plague on Human once again, killing Mom and TGT. I believe I vial in a Mirran Crusader after, which stays at 1/1.
After a turn or two of swinging into his empty board he casts Zealous Persecution, wiping away my Revoker and Mirran Crusader. He then pops EE to take care of my vial, so in response I Vial in Flickerwisp targeting SFM. SFM fetches Sword of Fire and Ice, Vial goes to the graveyard, and I end up with SFM and Flickerwisp for a board. Hand is just Batterskull and SoFI.
Next turn opponent casts Council's Judgment. I think for a second he's either going to take my SFM, or is baiting me to put in Batterskull (since I didn't have enough mana to hard cast it) and will take that instead. I respond with SFM, putting in SoFI instead (knowing that if it survived I could hope to equip Flickerwisp and start catching up on cards). He picks SOFI, much to my delight. Next turn I put in Batterskull, and it combined with Flickerwisp start getting in all the damage I needed. I don't remember the last turn completely but I'm pretty sure I cast another Flickerwisp to flicker out a blocker to attack for lethal or had Plowed his only blocker. (I ended up flickering a lot of blockers last night to win games, it felt so good!).
So very glad I've gone back to 4 Flickerwisp, it's been amazing. I seriously undervalued it for too long.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
I am looking to proxy up a D&T list for my buddy who is considering moving into the format to test out before he commits. Could one of you D&T experts please recommend a baseline list to play with either a link to a Goldfish list and/or a good article to a list also includes general matchup sideboarding plans. I'm hoping to have a printout I can stuff in the deckbox to help him more quickly acclimate. I really thought I'd see a lot more homogenized set of lists on Goldfish than I'm seeing so I'm not sure which direction seems to be the "most" standard.
If it helps in choosing a deck, these are the decks we have in our typical playgroup:
Elves
Reanimator
Shardless
Burn x 2
Affinity
Goblins
That said we are also planning to proxy up Grixis Delver (w/DRS), Storm (ANT version), Lands, Miracles (a mentor version), and Eldrazi so we have can have a gauntlet for us to all practice with and against, so please don't make the list to hyper focused on the existing playgroup decks.
Thank you for any help you are able to offer.
