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Hey Cipher, I'm curious to know what's your reasoning on why you choose to play no dig through times when so many other players choose to play it in multiples. Also I'm curious to see what your list looks like if you don't mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cipher
I prefer to focus on a deck's specific strength when deckbuilding. With Miracles you control the top of your deck, which is a gamezone just like the hand, graveyard, and battlefield. Your card advantage and engine pieces hinge off "combos" from Terminus, Entreat, and Counterbalance being broken by the manipulation provided by Top, Brainstorm, and Jace. As far as I'm concerned, the rest of the deck needs to just be cheap disruption. I tried Ponder a long time ago, but found that it wasn't remotely close to Top or Brainstorm. These days all anyone plays is midrange that get wrecked by Terminus, so tapping-out is statistically OK, but I'm not a Legacy grinder or anything so I'd rather make my list more all-around competent. You also can casually take all day spinning Top and Ponder and ignoring the other guy when they're running these creature decks, so the mana intensity isn't as much a problem as it is when a fight can happen any turn.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThanhHa
I then tried other cards like Predict and Impulse. Both these cards were poor filler since they ignored the basic premise of the deck; they cleared the top of your deck when you were trying to stack it. What are you going to impulse into Terminus? Maybe Telling Time would have been a better "instant-speed Ponder". Dig through Time is the same deal, but it's so powerful that people just jam it anyway. It's the equivalent of throwing Jace in the Sneak and Show decks like the SCG guys were doing last year.
In the end I just went with 2 Snapcasters to flashback Brainstorm midgame, or Swords, REB, etc:
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Entreat the Angels
4 Counterbalance
2 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
6 Island
2 Plains
1 Karakas
Sideboard:
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Flusterstorm
4 Red Elemental Blast
2 Supreme Verdict
1 Council's Judgment
2 Rest in Peace
1 Volcanic Island
1 Mountain
I'm basically running a "stock" list from a few years back, +1 Jace, -Oblivion Ring or something like that. I run 4 Jace because it's the most powerful enabler in the deck even turning on "dead" miracles in your hand. I hardly mind drawing 2 in my opening hand, except against combo. If combo was huge, I could see replacing it with the sideboard Clique.
I also cut my Disenchant for Venser in the sideboard. I've never been a fan of silver bullets, especially when they only snipe your opponent's silver bullets. I'm not a statistical guru, but the collision of probabilities doesn't seem high to me. And who even cares about a deck that's running Stoneforge? Venser is a beast in the mirror and most combo matchups. He's ironically great against Stoneforge, as well.
Also, I just recently decided to cut 2 more silver bullet cards (Staticaster and something else) for the two red sources in the sideboard. This gives me only 4 non-basics game 1, and I honestly think Wasteland loses me more games against midrange than anything else. The deck is too mana intensive, especially with Top in play. If I feel like I need anymore sideboard slots I'll probably move them back main, but my sideboarding for all the popular matchups wasn't affected.
I was scrolling through this past weekend's scg premier iq and noticed that jeskai stoneblade won the tournament. However, when I looked at the list, I noticed it seemed like more of a hybrid list...part stoneblade, and part miracles. It's running terminus and top, but more of a stoneforge package. To be honest, besides no counterbalance this is miraclesish. By no means am I one of those guys who posts the wrong deck in the wrong forum. I just felt this deck was worth discussing, and if just wanted to read some constructive thoughts about it. Having been a part of this thread for a few months, I know it can get tense lol.
http://www.mtgdecks.net/decks/view/220732
"It has SDT, it has Terminus, it must be Miracles, or has something to do with Miracles," is that your reaction? When you ask people's impression of Miracles in the context of Legacy, most people would agree that it's the closest adaptation of what a permission control deck does. For people to come to that impression, we most likely attribute to the counter-top package. This SFM deck, classified by SCG, does not have such package. I would go even further, it's a typical SFM deck with usual suspect like Bolts, except it avoided Dig in favor of SDT manipulation. Not only that, it attempted to use Terminus as a fail-safe, instead of StP. Yes, it's a Blade control deck, but that kind of control isn't close to what Miracle control tries to accomplish. In conclusion, Miracle Blade (BBD's toy pre-TC 2014) and Miracle control belong to this thread, but Blade control like the one you listed doesn't, imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tombo175
Ya, that is my deck list. I sort of feel it is a hybrid. I used to use swords to plowshares, but I upgraded to terminus because it handles worse board states better. I do miss snapcaster synergies with swords to plowshares since I removed them from the 75, but terminus is swords-the-whole-boards and generally more useful. If you want to learn more about the style of deck I use kind of deviated from the dtb blade control forum because the lack of support of red splash. This is a link to my thread:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tombo175
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...U-W-R-control)
You are right this deck is definitely a stoneblade deck but the 5 slots for the SFM package (3 SFM, 1 S.O.F.I.,1 batterskull) is the same amount of space for 3 counterbalance, the 4th SDT, and an entreat the angels. That being said were are really talking about a minimum of 5 cards to be politically correct and "acceptable" (8.3% difference). I did like miracles adaptation of board wipe with terminus, and use it similarly with my American blade aka "jeskai stoneblade" (per SCG). I just run one less SDT then miracle lists (hard to find room with all the diverse threats my deck presents). Sidenote: when you search for my decklist on google and find mtgdecks.net they appear to have it labled "jeskai stoneblade" but filed in under the deck type countertop (seen in green from google as "www.mtgdecks.net Legacy CounterTop") What is nice about my deck and its relationship appearing as miracles is it leads to poorer side boarding strategies among my opponents who aren't familiar with my list. It is very common this misdiagnose my deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
Hi lost_ronin, you'r right, is very common to misdiagnose the deck because he are very similar to Miracle control (SDT).
I don't like a W deck without Plowshares but he work very good.
The "hybrid" deck are a good strategy in a meta set to fight vs Miracle control "classic".
In this time I try the Blad control and I like this archetype.
Anyway, this is not the right thread for this (very good) deck.
Hodor. Hodor!
So I don't really feel like reading through 350+pages to see if this has been brought up so I'll just ask. What is the best way to approach the mirror? At the store I play we sometimes have legacy and there's already 2 players on miracles out of around 8-12 players. I plan on playing the ponder snapcaster version.
Hello,
in my opinion to aproach the mirror you should acept that pre board your deck is colour coded. You donīt want the white spells (except Entreat) and you need the blue ones. So most of the time the winner will be who draws more usefull stuff and avoids the dead cards like STP and Terminus.
After the boarding you shoudl just fight over the win and lock peices of the deck. So this woiuld be Jace, Top, CB and Entreat. A established Cb top lock is not the game over
because you can blast Cb out of the water with Explosives or just put a Jace into play which can win you the game trhough the lock. Also entreat can win because Cb is unable to counter this.
Important to know is that you donīt want to let the opponent resolve his top early because it brings so much consistency that this will cost you the game in the mirror most of the time.
In the end what wins you the game is consitency and expirience so to win the mirror you should pratice it regularly to get a fell for the situations and the possibilites for the possible answers you oppent could have.
Do I keep entreat in? Isn't that bad against opposing explosives, or do I just not care about that?
Hello,
actually both ios valid. Some argue that the entreat is bad because the opponent can play EE for 0. I for my part say that the opponent most likely has 2 EE in his deck, which actually also used to handle CB.
Entreat doges the Cb lock and is a must counter if you donīt have 1 of you 2 Explosives. With 3 DDT and 3 Entreat it is more likely that I find more Entreats than you have
answers for.
Yes my list plays 3 DDT so it is not the standard approach but even than you have 2 to 3 Entreats and they are addtional win Cons which can be casted while beeing in a CB lock and if you manged to prepare it right win you the game on the spot if not answered.
So yes I do not board them out because they are addtional and resilent threads in this matchup.
Thanks for the compliment :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Hrothgar
hilariousQuote:
Originally Posted by Adryan
And @ erik, I agree with Teveshszat over counterbalance, Jace, and entreat the angels (probably SDT as well but I don't think it is worth force of will). It is important to keep them from resolving. What helps is spell pierce for early game (Probably best at 2) , Flusterstorm (wins the counter fight, can help work around a resolved counterbalance, and can hit entreat the angles), Vendilion clique (can be used to distrupt the miracle trigger, is hard for jace to fight, and you can tap out during the safer end steps of your opponent), and Red elemental blast/Pyroblast (handles all non-entreat threats aswell and works well with snapcaster). I don't like Snapcaster targeting ponder in this match up unless you absolutely have to, because its sorcery speed and leaves you decently tapped out (two blue sources) to fight off what ever threat your opponent decides to try to slam on his turn (like jace, counterbalance, entreat, or dig through time)Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik9798
Thanks for the fast replies. I'll try leaving entreat in if I happen to face the mirror tonight (very likely) and see how I like it. What's your opinion on reb vs Pierce in the main?
First time playing the deck tonight. Went 2-2. Beat omni-tell and enchantress, lost to tezzeret in a game I played terribly, and got crushed by death and taxes. Didn't end up playing reb or Pierce main, and didn't face either of the other two miracles decks (only 8 players). I will definitely need to get in some more games before I bring this to a real tourney... So many little things to be aware of while playing this deck.
One quick question: i saw people running monastery mentors in sideboard of miracles, vs. which matchup it is supposed to sideboard it in? does anybody has some experience on that?, i'm having a hard time figuring this out
nowadays meta is done by:
TES
ANT
MIRACLE
OMNITELL
REANINATOR
Death and Taxes
what else?
Uhm, Delver?Quote:
Originally Posted by Poron
And various flavors of BUG?
right! the much hated BUG...
A 5 second glance at the DTB section might also reveal the presence of some little green men (i.e. Elves) in the metagame.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poron
our deck play Ethersworn Canonist, Confinement Priest and Counterbalance..
I'm only afraid of Taxes effect and discard..