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I've since seen the list. It has Armageddon in the SB and 4x Chains of Mephistolseles MB. Armageddon seems easy to play around. I think my strategy here is to rely pretty heavily on Meren and Bob as they're CA that gets around Chains and Meren seems especially good at dealing with occasional sacrifice effects. Honestly, my list seems well positioned for it but the Therapy calls are odd since almost everything in the opponents list is a 3 of minus Chains.Quote:
Originally Posted by truthfulcake
Does Chains even impact Nic Fit at all? Turns off Top's evasion and Library, but your other forms of CA (Meren, Bob) don't technically draw.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
I still say name Hymn, since it's the most damaging thing for you. I guess you blind name what you expect to be the worst thing for you, and if they don't have it then that's better for you.
Hymn. I play a lot against mono b pox and I always call hymn because the card is simply annoying and puts u behind. Calling sinkhole depends on your available lands and if u have something to dig for new ones if necessary. For me abrupt decay is important to destroy bridges and maybe cursed scroll.
Overall I think it is 70:30. They can't win the top deck race because the basically have non.
Gesendet von meinem ONE E1003 mit Tapatalk
The main worry is if they run me out of cards I'm locked out of the game at that point.Quote:
Originally Posted by truthfulcake
That's fair logic. Hymn is only a 3 of though, would it perhaps be better to name Thoughtseize (4 of) and then Hymn on the flashback? I'm pretty sure if I have sacrifice fodder that's correct (especially on the play). So play TS (if I have a FB target), then Hymn, draw Hymn?Quote:
I still say name Hymn, since it's the most damaging thing for you. I guess you blind name what you expect to be the worst thing for you, and if they don't have it then that's better for you.
Edit: NM, I'm dumb. Stupid Chains. Just realized it doesn't affect my draw for the turn, so it can't actually lock me out of the game.
Meh, you run too much good stuff to be bothered w/ 1-for-1s like Thoughtseize. I'd rather whiff on Hymn (since they not having it is a good thing) than hit on a TS only to be Hymn'd to the face a turn later.
How many winconditions does your opponent run? I don't know if you're running Lost Legacy, but if he's low on winconditions Lost Legacy can be pretty fucking awesome.
Things to do w/ Meren, by the way: Assemble Eternal Witness + Phyrexian Tower. Lets you regrow your lands (and everything else) after an Armageddon.
that's it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
I do it the same way. but u definitely need the flashback creature for the possible hymn.
most 1 drops they have: ts, rack, scroll, in blood.
ts hurts u most turn one therefore it a good call if you play first.
on the draw definitely hymn.
Definitely overthought the match because it was unfamiliar. Played a small 3 round tournament today, first round was our league pairings, then 2 more after that. Ended up 3-0 played against Pox, Eldrazi, and D&T.Quote:
Originally Posted by cherson
Pox was pretty easy, I think calling it 70/30 is being kind. Game 1 involved a durdly win using a Mentor/Top combo (that was being run with just 2 lands on board). Game 2 my opponent was very scared of the Top combo and went with 4 Pithing Needles to shut the SDT's down (2 of which saw play). Eventually I got out from under the needles by using some recurred Pridemages, but by that point I had a Sigarda down which blanked his whole deck. 2-0
Next round was against Eldrazi. Maybe I just ran hot, but I wasn't really scared of them either. In game 1 I won with Bob beatdowns that eventually turned into Mentor/Top. This time I had lands though and the combo ended the game in 2 turns with a bunch of monks that rivaled Eldrazi in size. Game 2 involved a Chalice on 1 with me having a hand of Vet, Therapy, Path, Top, and some other stuff. The opponent kept due to a Mimic+Chalice hand with just one land. Being high on lands myself I used a fetch defensively for Arbor, traded with the Mimic, and then drew out of the lock an eventual Abrupt Decay followed by Vet/Therapy getting me a TKS and 2x Matter Reshapers. 2-0
The final round was against D&T. I don't remember many details but there was an easy game 1, I punted game 2 by forgetting about a Mirran Crusader in the opponents hand, and then calling something else on my Therapy flashback. Crusader+Jitte wrecked me a turn later. Game 3 went to turns but I got there with a Sigarda.
Ranger of Eos performed very well, Endless One came out a couple times and varied between 5/5 and 6/6. I never had a use to bring out a Safekeeper alongside it though. Still, I was getting 10 power over a couple bodies for 1 card invested on my end. Major value.
Mentor was interesting. The combo was lethal every time it came up, but it feels pretty bad to have a Mentor on board, a hand full of removal, and nothing to spend the removal on. I'm going to have to evaluate it further, but I liked it as a game 1 trick. In games 2 and 3, when this situation was coming up I was swapping a Mentor for a Knight (which ran around a 6/6) and just using Knight as a CA piece. Knight into Volrath's didn't come up, but I put that down to matchups. My Pox opponent had too many unused Wastelands, and the other opponents either exiled or didn't have removal. Against opponents that actually kill things I suspect having a way to turn a GSZ into a Volrath's is going to be pretty strong.
All in all I'm a fan of both 3 drops, and my current plan. But if you don't like the Mentor idea, Knight is superb alongside Tracker, Top, and any other CA pieces you may run. It's pretty nice with utility lands too, in my case Cavern to make 80% of my threats uncounterable, and Volrath's to recur anything that dies.
The clock is the biggest enemy, the extra finishers I added are helping that some though. Endless One and Knight of the Reliquary are both worth a couple minutes off each match because of how quickly they close things out. If you take nothing else away from this though, I would take away this point: KotR is good enough to be worth considering again. It's a great way to streamline your curve without giving up size, and the tutoring has some real utility. Turning every GSZ into a Volrath's which in turn makes every topdeck good is amazing. It has great interactions with Tracker, and I've found it to work well alongside Bob, Top, and by extension Sylvan Library as well. It's a worthy addition to the CA/CQ suite.
It could just be my meta, which lacks the unfair decks like Reanimator and Belcher that this build is bad against but I feel very well positioned against the format. It takes a lot for me to be confident about a Legacy deck, but I'm confident about this.
tl;dr: The list is solid.
Locally I'm above 50% against Miracles (could be due to opponent skill).
Eldrazi feels even, you'll either win big or lose big, there's no middle ground.
Delver/D&T/Fair decks are favored.
Storm and misc Force check decks are unfavored.
My biggest enemy is honestly the clock. Lots of drawing, lots of shuffling, lots of Top activations. I play at a pretty brisk pace and against Pox and Eldrazi I was on the 2-0 or bust plan. Miracles is usually a 1-0.
KotR is amazing. If you're not playing it, you probably should be.
Oh FFS not another 3-drop I have to somehow cram in there. I can see it being good (as I run 10 fetchlands and all). But damn man, we only have 60 slots. OMG, lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
Also If I am going to run with KotR, when I want Wasteland and utility lands.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
I played test your list btw Echelon. It went well against bug and D&T.
What is the reason to have 10 fetchlands? I would like to add another dualland to have more options.
Meh, Wasteland is for pussies. KotR just being a 5/5+ is fine. It can be the big stick you need in the lategame.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganfar
Awesome that you played my list! Did you like it?
Why the 10 fetchlands? Well, for starters, I like to be able to rely solely on basics while keeping my manabase as small as possible. W/ 10 fetch, 3 duals & 6 basics I hit 14 initial manasources for each colour @just 19 lands, leaving me room for 2 utility lands (or 3 if you want a 22 land manabase). I basically only fetch a dual when I absolutely must. If I can avoid it, I just fetch for basics. I call this "Fuck you, Wasteland".
The second reason is that fetchlands become way more valuable than others lands when you have a Top/Courser/Library out, even if you have no land left to find in your library. Lategame they turn into 0 mana shuffle effects rather than mana #7/8+ (I mean, how much mana do you need when your curve tops out at 5/6?).
I made just one change in the deck -1 Path to +1 Mealstrom Pulse, becasue I want a all around answerd in main borad. (Didn't see it when I played"Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
I like the deck. I got to play KoT Stanard (Play 4 Rhinos in a row). The deck was not trying to do something cute that I felt the other version of the deck I have played. I need to play more and to get more feeling but right now it feels good.
I really like two Towers. The Stronghold have not been so good, when it's topdeck mode and you have a tusk in the graveyard. Tower makes your turn 2 more explosive and we can play our Rhino and a top.
Glad to hear that!
The main goal of the list is to get out of the early game ASAP, quickly power through to the late game and bring your opponents to their knees from there.
I guess the manabase can be a bit tricky (since it's only 21 lands and focuses very strongly on fetching basics as much as you can), but you get used to it eventually. Mana is deliberately tight, as I wanted to cram in as much gas as possible (hence omitting basic land no. 7). I like having a very high threat density. Filtering out as much lands as possible from my library helps with that.
did you guys test Verdurous Gearhulk as pure finisher?
echelon I know you considered the giant instead of sorin..
card looks awesome. 5cmc 8/8 trample optional pump a rhino, sigarda etc!?
sorry if you discussed it already and I missed it.
Still am. Just don't have the time to test it.Quote:
Originally Posted by cherson
Things is though - it doesn't do shit vs. Miracles and I've managed to power through D&T without it just fine. I keep going back and forth. It mostly is nice in the Eldrazi MU.
There is only one 5 drop in the deck so it should be find.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
The thing that makes me angry when I play Nic-Fit is to see three lands on the top. If we can get away with 21 lands, I am in.
I don't know what you're talking about, I have 61 slots. Seriously though, I'm using it as a SB card, but it's a great SB card (I would have it MB if I wasn't playing Monastery Mentors though). I think people are overthinking just how much of a toolbox you need. Most people these days are running 2-3 utility lands, that's all your Knight needs to fetch if they're impactful enough. In fact I would argue that just having a single Volrath's to fetch is worth the Knight as a sideboard plan.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
It's like using Primeval Titan for the two towers, except you get to do it at 3 mana less, and have your towers assembled a turn earlier. Or alternatively, you just get one tower and use the rest of the time to hit the opponent really hard.
You're overthinking things. Wasteland is at it's best as a T1/T2 play, off a Knight it's a T4 play, and the rest of the deck gives the opponent mana anyways. You don't need Wasteland. I find I don't really want to tutor Phyrexian Tower either (but that might come up sometime). Basically, I run 2 KotR targets in my deck, Cavern of Souls and Volrath's Stronghold. I'm fine running them without tutors too, but tutoring makes it better. You'll get plenty of value doing something similar if you go Volraths+Something.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganfar
In other words, we're kind of spoiled because of GSZ tutoring for 10 different cards. SFM has widely shown though (or Ranger of Eos and KotR if you want to take my word for it) that you don't need 10 tutor options. 2-3 options to find is more than enough. If you pick some good ones you'll almost always be able to find something useful.
Edit: Thought of this description earlier. The build I'm playing, feels like I'm playing Vintage while my opponents are stuck in Legacy. I don't know how many here have ever played Vintage but the hallmark of the format is a low curve, with fast mana, high card velocity, and lots of CA. That's exactly what I have. The threats/answers differ a bit but playing a Vintage deck feels a lot like playing SE Fit (need to do something about that name I think).
When 10 out of your 21 lands are fetchlands odds are 1 of those 3 is a fetchland. Just draw that and shuffle the other 2 away. Might cost you a turn, but costing just 1 turn is still better than 3.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganfar
Meh, I like SE Fit. Fits the bill just right. But, in the words of everybodies favorite Porsche/vintage Ferrari loving dentist: Post your list, scrub!Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
I don't think the name is cool enough, needs some marketing spin. Maybe SEX Fit. Systems Engineering eXperiment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
The list was posted a few days ago, listing it again just feels like spam so I'll link to it
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post973103
The only change is that I settled on the Toxic Deluge as the last cut. I can go over my SB choices from my matches the other day though.
Against Pox
-2 Monastery Mentor (because I pulled off the combo in G1)
-1 Sylvan Safekeeper (all of the opponents removal was sacrifice based)
-1 Abrupt Decay (having the decklist meant I knew there was nothing random I cared about)
+1 Knight of the Reliquary
+2 Deathrite Shaman
+1 Noble Hierarch
Basically I brought in more mana fearing Armageddon or a better LD draw from my opponent
Against Eldrazi
-1 Scavenging Ooze (doesn't do much)
-2 Monastery Mentor (combo can be locked out by chalice)
-1 Bayou
+1 Cavern of Souls (Chalice protection)
+1 Shriekmaw (strong removal)
+1 Knight of the Reliquary (awesome enabler for the Volrath's/Shriekmaw combo btw)
+1 Noble Hierarch (mana through chalice, adds to board)
Against D&T
-2 Monastery Mentor (prowess is too slow with taxes)
-1 Cabal Therapy (less sacrifice fodder)
-1 GSZ (taxes)
-1 SDT (taxes)
-1 Scavenging Ooze (doesn't do much)
+2 Deathrite Shaman
+1 Noble Hierarch
+1 Shriekmaw
+1 Knight of the Reliquary
+1 Pernicious Deed
Again, the strategy was to bring in mana to negate their denial plan, alongside some removal and card quality. Knight is odd in this match, I definitely want Volrath's with Shriekmaw, but because they exile everything Volrath's doesn't do much else. I was thinking I might be able to use a Phyrexian Tower to blank Jitte, but it never came up.
Worth noting, I took the Mentor combo out in every game. I think it's a good G1 plan but in postboard games I preferred having Knight of the Reliquary+other stuff. I don't know if I would do that in every match, but I liked the plan in these ones.
Taking Sneak-Fit again tomorrow. I'm currently on this list:
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Fierce Empath
1 Thragtusk
1 Sidisi, Undead Vizier
1 Primeval Titan
1 Inferno Titan
1 Woodland Bellower
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Sneak Attack
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Punishing Fire
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Flex Slot
22 Lands (3 Grove, 2 Towers)
Not sure what goes in the flex slot. Currently I'm leaning towards a Nissa, Vital Force. Other options are Meren, Huntmaster, Tireless Tracker, Maelstrom Pulse, third Pires. What do you guys think?
I guess you talked about this already but...no Griselbrand?