I am not an expert of DnT but I would never play less than 2+1. Or at least 1+2
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I am not an expert of DnT but I would never play less than 2+1. Or at least 1+2
I play an extra land as a 61st card, and it works fine. http://cur.by/.dtlistQuote:
Originally Posted by iatee
If I get rid of THCs for cheaper options, I might drop down to 23/60 though.
My target for Faerie/Surgical was mostly BR Reanimator, and for that reason I went with Faerie. If they go off turn 1 on the play with a revealed Chancellor, your Surgical won't save you, but Faerie will. If they dump two reanimation targets, your Surgical won't save you, but Faerie will.Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
Yea I added 1 Faerie Macabre now, it makes sense what you said.Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
I don't think Prelate needs to be in the sideboard at all. I have 3 Recruiter of the Guard, why do I need more Prelates? It's super good vs. Lands yes, and that's one of the main reason I play it, but it's terrible in a lot of match ups too, and only does something when you're already ahead.
Having early and natural Prelates vs Delver decks before they have time to build a board / spend their 1s is big, and Recruitering can be a bit slow.
Vs Miracles there's both benefit to having multiples in play (1+6) and not having to burn your Recruiter engine - as soon as you pick something that isn't Recruiter/Flickerwisp vs Miracles you're giving up the infinite creatures train. Having a natural Prelate early on 1 vs Miracles allows you to jam them before they can get much going - later in the game, while still very strong, they'll have more flexibility to get it off the board with the number you didn't choose.
Vs Lands, where it actually is best, 1 is probably fine, since waiting a turn doesn't affect the game much.
It ultimately is a meta-call, obviously it's mediocre-to-bad vs creature heavy decks. But when it's good, resolving it on t3 just wins the game, and that's a very high upside. Kinda plays like Magus of the Moon, and two ended up being the right number for that card.
I really like having two Prelates in the main, though there is something to be said about having too many non-threat creatures. A few months ago, it wasn't uncommon for decks to play around 7 finishers. Post-Recruiter/Prelate, that number tends to be closer to three.
Can we say we were at 12 counting Batterskull and Flickerwisp? Going from 12 to 8 sounds a lot less drastic than 7 to 3. I'm not advocating papering over what might be a real problem with durdly builds, but at the same time we shouldn't ignore parts of our fighting force. Doing so could lead us into thinking our army is smaller than it really is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Medea_
If Batterskull and Flickerwisp don't count (needs SFM, 1 toughness is too weak), then yeah we're back at 7 to 3.
What I really meant by that was dedicated beater cards (Mirran Crusader, Avenger, Brimaz).
I will admit that I've cut down on beater cards but I feel that with recruiter I don't need them as much.
Between our standard hate + prelate I feel like I can:
#1 lock the game down so tightly (to the point where many opponents are just draw-go) that a simple array of 2/2s and 2/1s can get the job done
#2 equipment + wisps has become more important at delivering beat downs
#3 I feel like once I do have the game locked down .. I can just go recruiter for one of the limited beaters and take care of the game that way.
The priority has become to lock down the game first; and then once control is established; begin the inevitable beatdowns while I port/waste and thalia/prelate/revoker lock them into nothing.
Brief 4-0 weekly report with list I posted before, but tried:
Main:
-1 Crusader
+1 Banisher Priest
SB:
-1 Containment Priest
-1 Mangara
+1 Mirran Crusader
+1 Palace Jailer
I've been interested in trying Priest for awhile, especially with Enevoldsen touting it almost always in his lists, and it did shine in one of the matchups. Overall it was fine.
Round 1: vs. Miracles
Game 1: I naturally draw both my Prelates, set them to 1 and 6 and then kill him with whatever is on board.
-1 Umezawa's Jitte
-1 Stoneforge Mystic
-4 Swords to Plowshares
-1 Banisher Priest
+1 Palace Jailer
+1 Pithing Needle
+2 Council's Judgment
+2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
+1 Mirran Crusader
Game 2: He has a slow start and is searching for a Top, while I have Thalia protected by Karakas annoying him. Eventually I Gideon him and win.
Round 2: vs. Infect
Game 1: I curve out with Plows into a Vial in SFM which gets a Jitte and gets the job done. Mana denial on Inkmoth too.
I need help with the SBing for this matchup. I've heard people speak of cutting Thalia so removal is easier to cast, which I'm not sure I can agree on (but I do see the benefits).
+2 Path to Exile
+1 Pithing Needle
+2 Ethersworn Canonist
-1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
-2 Phyrexian Revoker
-1 Sanctum Prelate
-1 Flickerwisp
Reasoning: cut three drops since they can be durdly. Prelate isn't that amazing when they have such a diversity of removal and we can end up turning off our own removal spells. Revoker, although it hits Hierarch, generally is unimpressive as mana denial is reserved for Inkmoths rather than actually trying to mana screw them.
Game 2: On my turn two I have a Vial ticking up, Port and Plains, while he as Hierarch, Inkmoth, Forest. I jam Revoker and name Hierarch (although I could've Ported) since, in my mind, it achieves similar to Port in that it denies a single mana while still giving me a clock, and he cannot Daze it off his Forest (I have a SFM to bring in once my Vial ticks up to 2 too). I die to land, Invig + Berserk, ugh. I guess Porting Inkmoth would've been safer overall.
Game 3: I play Mom > Thalia and only draw Wastelands, Ports and Plow/Path for the rest of the game, killing all his Infecters with these. And this locks up the game pretty easy. Thalia certainly annoyed me a little in casting my removal, but it wasn't too much of a pain and frustrated him much more.
Round 3: vs. Eldrazi
Game 1: Punt the game by getting my t2 SFM Dismembered due to trading my Mom for a Mimic.
-4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
-2 Sanctum Prelate
-4 Mother of Runes
+2 Path to Exile
+2 Council's Judgment
+1 Palace Jailer
+2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
+1 Leonin Relic-Warder
+1 Mirran Crusader
+1 Containment Priest
Thalia is an interesting one to cut (first strike is quite reasonable), but she does minimal and makes my removal hard to cast. Priest, although shutting off my Vial, seems to work well as a pseudo-removal spell due to its Ambush Viper mode. It could just be a Prelate to tutor for if needed though, I guess, though Prelate herself is pretty miserable as naming two for their Jitte/Contortion/Wail is still kind of narrow.
Game 2:
Death & Taxes does what Death & Taxes does. Turn one Vial, into denying mana into SFM for Batterskull does great work, and a Banisher Priest takes care of a Seer. I end up with double Wisp in hand to seal up the game, resetting my BSkull and flickering away a blocker after he taps out for an Endbringer in the final turn.
Game 3: I squeak this one out! He turn one Eyes and poops out a Mimic and two 2/2 Endless Ones, so I'm under pressure. I have no turn one play, and my SFM gets Dismembered. Luckily, all my opponent has is a Cavern to follow up with and a Matter Reshaper. I cast a Flickerwisp, killing an Endless One and trading with the Mimic, and then curve into Gideon and trade off again. I'm at a scant amount of life (2) and annoyingly have a Horizon Canopy. Luckily I have a Banisher Priest to rid the Reshaper and clear the board, letting Gideon clean up the rest. My opponent shows me a hand with Seer and other four mana plus goodies that were uncastable. Eldrazi problems, I suppose.
Round 4: vs. Miracles
Game 1: Usual broken rubbish D&T has now. Double Prelate seals it all up - I never attack with them and just bring the beats with Thalia and a motley crew.
-1 Umezawa's Jitte
-1 Stoneforge Mystic
-4 Swords to Plowshares
-1 Banisher Priest
+1 Palace Jailer
+1 Pithing Needle
+2 Council's Judgment
+2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
+1 Mirran Crusader
Game 2: This was the funnest game of the day, mainly because I tried some weird stuff. My opponent struggles through the first wave of idiots (including removing Prelate backed up with Mom via Sulfur Elemental + Plow), but I'm able to Recruiter for a Jailer and eat his Sulfur - and then continue to draw seven or so cards in the next few turns, really putting my opponent on the back foot. They have a Jace going for a few turns but I pester it with some Revokers and friends. Some stuff eventually gets Terminused and a late Vial is bait for a Wear // Tear, allowing me to safely get a SoFI in play. My opponent brings a Mentor, I have Council's Judgment. My opponent then has Staticaster, but I Recruiter for Jailer again and eat it, eqiupping Sword to my Jailer. I eventually hit Jace to dead. I also have a Prelate on six, my opponent has another Sulfur that he attacks with. I derp and let him hit me, getting back his Staticaster to kill my Prelate and make him the Monarch. Bad plays, learn to read your cards. So now he starts cards flowing. He's forced to Terminus my Sword equipped Jailer though, and then I flood the board again. He struggles to clear it but can't get there, with a Karakas backed Thalia taking back Monarchy and eventually leading me to a winning game. Winning through 4 Terminus, 2 Sulfur Elemental, 1 Staticaster, multiple Plows and Snap Plows and Snap Wears is a sweet time indeed.
Palace Jailer truly impressed me. If I didn't make the poor blocking choice with Prelate I think I more easily would've won. The card warped the dimensions of the match completely, and was perfect as a card that was uncounterable (via Cavern), grindy removal for problematic creatures. It lets you happily cut Plows and still have a bevvy of flexible removal post-board. I'm sure I'm a bit biased because he went well, and I know some people have had the "I had Jailer, then he Cliqued me EOT and drew a billion cards" problem. But seeing my opponent's zero cards in hand to my six thanks to Jailer was glorious.
Anyway, primarily interested in:
- Infect SBing
- Thoughts on Jailer
- Thoughts on Banisher Priest (she was great vs. Eldrazi, just okay otherwise)
Also, concerning 4c Delver that people have been worried about, I agree that turn 2 TNN is hella scary - I had to face this last week in the semis of my small tourney against Stevestamopz. If we can't assemble some form of lifegain, have Vial to flood the board and race it, or have CJ on schedule the game generally falls out of reach. I've long been a proponent of two CJ side (and I think this is standard now anyway) but I know some people have looked at shaving to 1. I feel this is less warranted now with both 4c Delver and the Bant DeathBlade decks being so popular, and their primarily gameplan against us being to dork out TNN ASAP. Also, Serra Avenger has always been our answer to racing TNN, and having her can certainly help swing races or be a warm body to Jitte up.
EDIT: Also, concerning Prelate, agreeing with iatee here (though it may just be my meta) that 2 Prelates feels perfect. I find that naturally casting one (as seen in the report above) and then tutoring for the last has been the one-two punch to lock out many decks entirely - do note that the first Prelate generally gives you time to find the second as it locks out the opponent's ability to find answers. I don't think there is any space for additional though due to how lacklustre she is in other MUs, and I suppose a 1/1 split main SB is pretty reasonable to hedge for more Eldrazi/D&T heavy metas. Her body is also pretty terrible and necessitates having some kind of a pure beatsticks in our lists. A card that can singlehandedly win matchups itself should not be a mere one-of though, I feel.
Thalia is stronger than C Priest vs Eldrazi. 2/1 first strike body is better than 2/2 flash, and the Thalia + Karakas wall can hold back a big dude. Thalia wears equipment well too. Don't think she's fantastic, would never keep 4 in, but C Priest really doesn't do enough.
Vs Infect, I think Pithing Needle isn't great - it stops their threat that we naturally have a million ways to stop. I'd prefer Council's Judgment, as slow as it is, super slow removal is still removal and sometimes you lose to a mid-game Blighted Agent.
Banisher Priest is also good vs Infect, DnT and big creature combo decks - basically every deck that plays creatures but doesn't play a lot of removal. Really shines vs Eldrazi because it turns their two-for-one bombs (Smasher/TKS) into a two-for-one in your favor.
I think that's fair, and keeping in a singleton Thalia is probably better than Priest. I was happy to experiment with the choice though nonetheless.Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
I also can get behind CJ due to many having Library which can be very threatening for us, so its removal with upside if we can cast it, especially since it gets around Vines. It can be a bit slow, but the matchup can get grindy at times indeed - and Blighted Agent is the scariest card for us. I'll give this a spin next time I play the MU. How do we feel about Prelate in this MU? Since we'll be naming 3 a lot for Invigorate, CJ gets a bit awkward here too.
I guess my only issue is that Banisher Priest leaves you prone to blowouts from Eldrazi and D&T, as although they have little removal pre-board, post-side this is upped a bit. I got a Priest Dismembered mid-combat which would've left me in a hairy situation if I did not have Wisp to bail me out. Priest also didn't feel really like a two-for-one (other than when exiling Smasher or Reshaper), as her mediocre body tends to just sit there and be uninvolved with combat and not really worth a card. I can see the upside of her and was very happy with her against Eldrazi certainly, but she felt pretty replaceable. I don't know whether I want to dedicate two slots to cards with similar-ish functions (Banisher Priest & Jailer).
Priest is so much stronger instant speed out of Vial, and you can't do that with Jailer without burning the Vial. Jailer isn't as immediately soft to Dismember, though (as with basically any matchup really...) if Eldrazi becomes the monarch, you probably only have a turn or two before you can't come back from the card disadvantage.
Eldrazi would always rather have their creatures tapped sideways, so if you can't attack with a Priest because they have blockers, you're still getting something out of the body. The Dismember blowout potential is real though, for sure. Less scared of a StP blowout from DnT, most of the time Priest is going to be some sort of tempo blowout when you play it originally (e.g. Vial it in response to an equip), so even if they get their own little mini-blowout with a StP, it's not comparable to 'attack into an empty board, no wait, there's a Reality Smasher'.
Oh I definitely am not comparing Jailer and Priest for the Eldrazi matchup - as I said, they have "similar-ish" functions in some matchups, but certainly there Priest is much better. I bring Jailer in, but he is nowhere near as efficient as Priest, definitely. He's just going to get TKSed out of your hand the majority of the time, and we'll be under significant pressure so Monarch isn't guaranteed. I'm more thinking about the 75 holistically, and whether Priest is better than a card such as Crusader, who is less dead in other matchups (I found Priest really terrible as a draw against combo and Miracles...) and in the Eldrazi matchup Crusader at least blocks and attacks relatively well. Probably a meta consideration anyway, as Eldrazi is not very prominent here.Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
I also really like your point about the D&T mirror which I've always felt is all about tempoing out your opponent with a variety of tricks. I agree that Banisher Priest is good there for sure, but tbh a lot of random cards are good in the matchup, since we cut so many terrible cards from our main. I at least have Relic-Warder to cover a similar slot I suppose, while also giving us some Disenchant utility, though they're not really too comparable.
ChemicalBurns are you really confident in your sideboarding against miracles? I think Stoneforge is 100% better than Mirran Crusader so I'm not sure why you're boarding it out. I've never boarded out Stoneforge because having equipment on boards puts so much pressure on them (makes every 1/1 a huge threat).
I just went 10-0 in MTGO League with the list I posted +1 Faerie Macabre -1 Surgical Extraction.
Match ups:
2-1 Enchantress
2-1 Grixis Delver
2-1 Death and Taxes
2-0 Shardless BUG
2-0 4c Delver
2-0 Aluren
2-0 BUG Delver
2-0 Eldrazi
2-0 Eldrazi
2-0 Miracles
Really happy with the deck, I can't say if 24 lands made the difference, but it sure felt like it did. I can't wait till Palace Jailer is on MTGO, it seems to be way better than Mangara and I was rarely really happy with Mangara.
Nice run.
Dodging Elves & Lands like a Boss.
I currently try out 24 lands, too.
It actually feels good, going with triple Cavern by now, maybe cutting one for a Mishra's Factory.
Already excited how Palace Jailer will do for You.
I am still collecting opinions and experiences with it (currently running 1 in my SB).
Dodging Lands? I would rather play Lands with Bahra's list than literally any of the decks he played. He has Surgicals, Cataclysms, Prelate in a matchup that wasn't even unfavored without those haymakers.
I agree on SfM, I never board any out vs Miracles, though I also like Mirran Crusader. In both cases you're presenting a real clock, which is what Miracles doesn't want to see. Crusader + equipment will almost always win with one hit.
I'd rather take out a Flickerwisp or a Mom. Flickerwisp is much worse with Vial offline, which happens often enough post-board vs Miracles. Mom is in a weird 'sometimes great, sometimes pure card disadvantage' spot. She's a little more powerful if you have more copies of Prelate to protect, though.
@Bahra
Good stuff! It's nice to see solid finishes while I'm collecting data for the GP in January.
@ChemicalBurns
I think Stoneforge is one of the best cards in the Miracles matchup. Getting a piece of equipment on board means every threat thereafter is a must-answer card. I would never trim one. I also board Batterskull out over Jitte. Jitte serves as removal for Mentor, Containment Priest, and other annoying stuff like Sulfur Elemental that might come in. Batterskull lines up poorly against Jace, so I'm not a huge fan.
I'm also wary of cutting all the StP vs Miracles. When I lose, it's often to an unchecked Mentor start.
@Iatee
I disagree on the Needle front. I love Needle vs Infect. Though Inkmoth can be handled with our lands, we can't afford to keep Port up every turn to stop it unless we also have Vial. Playing the Inkmoth lets us ignore ~33% of their threat base for a single mana. That's a great investment.
CJ is awkward in the Infect matchup, but it's probably fine. I bring it in about half the time; it really depends on where my sideboard is at for that given week.
Batterskull is great against Miracles and I don't think 'lines up poorly vs Jace' is a good argument. A resolved Jace is good in most situations vs us. When we're short on mana and don't have a Vial, there are many cases where there would be little difference between Jace killing a creature or bouncing one - the issue with an early resolved Jace is tempo, not card advantage.
Big picture, Bskull turns one card into two bodies, which is exactly the form of card advantage you want vs Miracles, because it forces their hand on Terminus. It's a Blade Splicer and I think nobody would side out Blade Splicer vs Miracles, even though the Golem token is also soft to Jace. Skull provides late-late game inevitability and a dead Skull that gets Flickerwisp'd gives you 7 power out of nowhere.
Jitte is pretty solid against Mentor, but little else. Cleans up a Snapcaster or a random sideboard card once in a while, but it doesn't provide consistent value, in some games the minus ability will have literally 0 targets. It requires a lot of time and resources to turn it into something that actually does a point of damage to the opponent and the lifegain ability is very rarely relevant.
I like keeping StPs against Mentor builds, but side out more and more of them lately as I think most people are drifting away from Mentor, or at least from the 4 Mentor builds. I think you kinda have to try to look for signs for what they're playing. Prelate also is very effective vs Mentor, as Prelate on 1 turns Mentor into a Grey Ogre and forces a Terminus. So the more Prelates you play, the less you need to worry about Mentor.
On Infect - I don't find myself losing to Inkmoth, I find myself losing to fast combo kills and to Agent. I don't think good Infect players keep hands g2/3 that are going to be particularly dependent on Inkmoth because they know that DnT is pretty well set up to stop the card. Inkmoth rarely presents a fast combo kill on its own because attacking with it sucks up 2 mana, so by the time they have them active you should have Wastes/Ports at the ready and possibly even a Flickerwisp somewhere, possibly more flyers if you play them. On the subject of Needle effects, I actually don't mind keeping Revokers in. Infect players are generally happy to open with t1 Hierarch because they know their mana will be under pressure. And unlike Thalia, Revoker's mana denial only goes in one direction.
On Miracles:
Concerning cutting Stoneforge, I fully understand its potency in the matchup - getting SoFI is game-breaking. However, drawing excessive Stoneforges makes the one after the second useless, since I've always been cutting Jitte and have never found it that useful in the matchup. As iatee has said, once you connect with it, it still doesn't provide that much value. Even then, the second Stoneforge just gets a BSkull, which in my mind is far from the potency of SoFI (but still reasonable). Basically, you want to resolve one Stoneforge, a second one is gravy and a third one is useless - which signals wanting it as a three-of, to me. Post-board where your opponent is trimming counterspells also makes the first one more likely to resolve too. I guess just having as few dead cards in a long, drawn-out game is what I'm trying to aim for, though I still feel we have to keep 4 Thalia due to how generally disruptive she is, especially backed up by Karakas. Crusader may be less potent than the fourth Stoneforge though, that is true.
Before I used to trim Mom in this matchup too, but the potency of Mom and Prelate on six is just too powerful to pass up, as the opponent is put into scrambling for their SB cards just like two Prelates, one on 6 and one on 1, respectively, does. I'll admit she can be mediocre as late-game plays though.
Agree on keeping perhaps two Plows in against 4 Mentor builds, but the two Mentor builds I played against I feel it's less necessary, despite the super man-plan they bring in. I find just my creatures in combat are very easily able to overwhelm opposing Mentors and force them into an awkward Terminus - as iatee said, especially with Prelate making Mentor look very sub-par. Having access to sort-of five pieces of incredibly flexible removal in two CJ and the two Recruiters + Jailer also served me well, and seems like a solid plan. Since we are the aggressor in this matchup (other than their tempo-esque Mentor draws), I feel reactive spells like Plow aren't too useful in broad scenarios.
Nonetheless, very interesting to hear everyone's point of view on this common matchup. I'm very happy to be wrong and will experiment with what has been proposed such as the fourth Stoneforge and keeping in the Jitte as Medea has been doing, and I'll see how I feel in the weeks ahead.
Did you look at the math or how does this signal wanting stoneforge as a three-of?Quote:
Originally Posted by ChemicalBurns
It's 40% to be in your opener as a 4 of, it's 31.5% to be in your opener as a 3 of.
With 4 copies you have to get 23 cards deep before you have a ~50% chance of having drawn 2 Stoneforge Mystics in a given game (not counting getting equipments out of your deck), that's a lot of draws. To draw 3 copies it's still only 30% chance when you're 30 cards down.
A card that makes our entire deck so good against miracles, is not worth cutting for such minuscule chances of drawing "too many" copies.