[Deck] Goblins

I'm still thinking about this new goblin, and there are a host of possibilities with him.

First off, this dungeon dude is a real card advantage machine. He's Moggcatcher on crank. And he joins Matron, Ringleader and Gempalm in being a card that allows you to get more cards from your library into play.

Secondly, he's also a dirty cheat, just like Lackey, Vial and Warren Instigator (and Goblin Wizard who is still horrible).

The real beauty in this card though is that he combines CA and cheating into one easy to open package. He is Lackey AND Ringleader. He is Show and Tell AND Griselbrand. And his mana cost and activation cost absolutely make him legacy playable.

I can absolutely see this card becoming a staple of the deck. His activated ability is perfectly redundant for the deck, which means we might actually be able to increase our threat density. I'm not wording that correctly, but what I mean is he might just be able to replace a couple Vials. Many very interesting possibilities.

And I haven't even gotten into how he will make Ringleader+Hatebears better post board. He turns Ringleader from a Liability into an Asset when you're digging for a Hatebear! Amazing.

I've said my piece for now. Off to bed. With visions of goblins dancing in my head.

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Originally Posted by jrw1985

I can absolutely see this card becoming a staple of the deck. His activated ability is perfectly redundant for the deck, which means we might actually be able to increase our threat density. I'm not wording that correctly, but what I mean is he might just be able to replace a couple Vials

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This goblin would make our mana hungry deck even more mana hungry, so cutting vials for him is contradictory in my view. Doesn't matter increasing threat density if you can't efficiently cast those threats. I understand that Grenzo cheats goblins into play, but without vial you would just be playing turn 2 Grenzo, turn 3 activate him once and if he doesn't hit you probably lose at that point because you wasted an entire turn.
Moreover, I suppose that playing Grenzo could be viable only in lists without rishadan ports, since really, how many things can we realistically afford to do with our mana? Sacrifice wastelands, activate ports, activate Grenzo... seems a bit unrealistic to me.

On another note, looks like they printed in m15 a 3 mana elf with ETB destroy an artifact or enchantment.... i wonder how many times we'll have to wait to see a 3 mana shatter goblin

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers...9571&type=card

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Originally Posted by Humphrey

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers...9571&type=card

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Foodchain is a lot better I think.. we can already produce infinite mana with it (or skirk prospector); allowing us to play our whole library with the new legend.

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Originally Posted by Avatara

Foodchain is a lot better I think.. we can already produce infinite mana with it (or skirk prospector); allowing us to play our whole library with the new legend.

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You can't use abilities with Food mana.

The dude isn't just board advantage, he's tempo advantage. For a swing of that magnitude he had better have a 50% failure rate. The dude is just a removal magnet compared to Goblin Piledriver or Mogg Fanatic.

New goblin in m15, this time really crappy.

Goblin Rabblemaster 2R (Rare)

Other goblin creatures you control attack each turn if able.
At the beginning of your combat phase, put a 1/1 goblin token with haste on the battlefield.
When Goblin Rabblemaster attacks , it gets +1 +0 untile end of turn for each other attacking goblins.

2/2

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/...2912397528.jpg
+ He costs two mana, which is important considering that Vial goblins are generally short on twodrops.
+ He is a mana sink in long, drawnout games where you draw to many lands, and too few goblins.
+ He is a card advantage engine that generates more card advantages the longer the game goes and he will often get to use his ability at least once the turn he is played.
+ The ability to give him a large body makes him excellent versus Lightning Bolt, Engineered Plague, and smaller ground creatures.
+ He is great when Terminus is the most commonly played sweeper in the format.
− He costs RB, meaning he will not always be castable.
− He is legendary, meaning he is vulnerable to an opposing Karakas, and makes drawing additional copies less attractive.
− Goblin Ringleader putting non-goblin cards on the bottom of your library, making his ability less useful. Although this could make finding nongoblin creatures like Thalia, Guardian of Thraben easier.
− He is vulnerable to Abrupt Decay.
− He is best in the later stages of the game when Aether Vial will usually be on three or four, not two.

How to construct a deck with Grenzo?
There are several cards that go great with Grenzo, putting creatures on the bottom of your library. These cards include cards like Magma Jet or the hideaway lands, but I don’t think we want to dilute our deck too much. Then there is Karakas, which may be difficult to include in a RB list, but is still worth consideration. His ability also makes Gempalm Incinerator more attractive compared to other removal spells like Tarfire and Warren Weirding. Powerful creatures like Siege-Gang Commander would work well with Grenzo. Rishadan Port may seem less useful when you want to spend all your mana activating Grenzo’s ability, but it also slows the game down, moving to the late game where Grenzo is at his best. His RB manacost and his manasink ability make us want more lands, whereas simultaneously we want a higher density of creatures to hit with him. While his ability to make up for the card disadvantage from Chrome Mox may be useful in Winstigator lists, I think he will be stronger in a more traditional, slower list. Warren Instigator may be the best two drop on turn two (or one), but he may also be less effective on later turns. In addition to that, the Chrome Moxen would decrease the creature density of the deck, as would Tarfire which is often preferred over Gempalm Incinerator in Winstigator lists due to removing early blockers being more important than the card advantage from Gempalm Incinerator. Fetchlands rather than Auntie’s Hovel and additional Badlands may also work well with, enabling you to shuffle away cards put on the bottom with ringleader, although this may be only a minor bonus.

Just some thoughts on Grenzo. What do you think? What else should be taken into consideration?

Thank you for this comprehensive overview. Some comments:

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Originally Posted by Sandro95

+ He is a mana sink in long, drawnout games where you draw to many lands, and too few goblins.

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We should think about if we want to play long games in the first place. Legacy is becoming faster and there is hardly any MU left that I would wish to last longer than 5 turns. We cut Siege-Gang COmmander for similar reasons: the games don't take long enough for him to show his potential.

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Originally Posted by Sandro95

He is great when Terminus is the most commonly played sweeper in the format.

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I personally never had problems with Miracles and/or Terminus. In my last tournament I literally CRUSHED them with a straigth 4-0 in games. I resolved vs these decks 4 Earwig Squads and none of them grabbed a Terminus. So, Terminus isn't really a good argument for Grenzo.

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Originally Posted by Sandro95

His ability also makes Gempalm Incinerator more attractive compared to other removal spells like Tarfire and Warren Weirding.

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I have doubts here. We are playing Tarfire (which is a bad card on it's own) for certain reasons: DRS, Delver and SFM. I would not go back to Gempalm just because there is a new 1- or 2-off in the deck that works better with Gempalm than with Tarfires. Also, flipping a Gempalm Incinerator into play isn't overwhelming. Sure, it better to spend 2 mana for a 2/1 body than 2 mana for nothing, but considerinh how frequently this difference will matter I would not play GI over Tarfires.

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Originally Posted by Sandro95

the Chrome Moxen would decrease the creature density of the deck,

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This is not true. Nobody is playing in Chrome Mox in a slot that would potherwise be reserved for a creature. Chrome Moxen are "lands" in that sense.



I also want to add that Grenzo can possibly replace one or two Winstigators in a Mox/WInstigator-list. I see two advantages here. First, casting him on turn 1 is actually a threatening play - and cutting WInstigators in favor of Grenzo seems legit since we don't really need MORE cheaters. Recently I felt like I have to few goblin-cards in hand and too many WInstigators in play (which you can actually regulate with Chrome Mox, but that's another story) - and I feel like Grenzo could partly take over the job.
Second, he's a nice pitch-target for Chrome Mox. Not only does he provide R/B mana, but you can also put him into Chrome Mox when you have multiple copies of Grenzo in your hand, thus making his Legendary-status matter less.

New M15 goblin spoiler, Pile...king...driver...generator...

http://mythicspoiler.com/m15/cards/g...blemaster.html

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Originally Posted by LeoCop 90

New goblin in m15, this time really crappy.

Goblin Rabblemaster 2R (Rare)

Other goblin creatures you control attack each turn if able.
At the beginning of your combat phase, put a 1/1 goblin token with haste on the battlefield.
When Goblin Rabblemaster attacks , it gets +1 +0 untile end of turn for each other attacking goblins.

2/2

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looks fine for modern, though

Actually Grenzo and Mana Echoes might be the new Foodchaingoblins.

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

Thank you for this comprehensive overview. Some comments:


We should think about if we want to play long games in the first place. Legacy is becoming faster and there is hardly any MU left that I would wish to last longer than 5 turns. We cut Siege-Gang COmmander for similar reasons: the games don't take long enough for him to show his potential.


I personally never had problems with Miracles and/or Terminus. In my last tournament I literally CRUSHED them with a straigth 4-0 in games. I resolved vs these decks 4 Earwig Squads and none of them grabbed a Terminus. So, Terminus isn't really a good argument for Grenzo.


I have doubts here. We are playing Tarfire (which is a bad card on it's own) for certain reasons: DRS, Delver and SFM. I would not go back to Gempalm just because there is a new 1- or 2-off in the deck that works better with Gempalm than with Tarfires. Also, flipping a Gempalm Incinerator into play isn't overwhelming. Sure, it better to spend 2 mana for a 2/1 body than 2 mana for nothing, but considerinh how frequently this difference will matter I would not play GI over Tarfires.


This is not true. Nobody is playing in Chrome Mox in a slot that would potherwise be reserved for a creature. Chrome Moxen are "lands" in that sense.



I also want to add that Grenzo can possibly replace one or two Winstigators in a Mox/WInstigator-list. I see two advantages here. First, casting him on turn 1 is actually a threatening play - and cutting WInstigators in favor of Grenzo seems legit since we don't really need MORE cheaters. Recently I felt like I have to few goblin-cards in hand and too many WInstigators in play (which you can actually regulate with Chrome Mox, but that's another story) - and I feel like Grenzo could partly take over the job.
Second, he's a nice pitch-target for Chrome Mox. Not only does he provide R/B mana, but you can also put him into Chrome Mox when you have multiple copies of Grenzo in your hand, thus making his Legendary-status matter less.

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You make very good points as always, thank you!

Cost/Efficiency comparison between Grenzo and Ringleader:

Lets assume we play a Ringleader and reveal the following cards: Goblin Matron, Goblin Piledriver, Goblin Lackey and Mountain. It's turn 4 and we've hit all of our land drops.

The Ringleader itself costs 3R, playing all the cards drawn will cost a total of 3RRR -> total: 6RRRR

Assuming that the same cards are on the bottom of our library and we play Genzo instead of Ringleader:

Grenzo itself costs BR (but we have the option to play him for more +2 to make him 4/4 instead of 2/2 but we miss out on the chance of putting a creature in play). Regardless activating his ability will cost 8 mana -> total 8BR

- in this situation Grenzo is just as mana efficient as Ringleader;
- goblin ringleader will never be more than a 2/2 where Grenzo has the potential to be one of the biggest creatures on the battlefield (that still functions as a card advantage engine).
- Grenzo's potential isn't effected by discard spells;

Looking purely at statistic; I believe that Grenzo is at the very least on the same power level of Goblin Ringleader. Ignoring him would be a big mistake in my opinion.

@ Avatara

In your analysis, you forget (at least) vial, lackey and warchief wich all decrease the costs in the ringleader version but not in the Grenzo one.

In a Grenzo-centric buil, why not, but in the classic one it is really a nonbo with ringleader, and really inferior.

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Originally Posted by dte

@ Avatara

In your analysis, you forget (at least) vial, lackey and warchief wich all decrease the costs in the ringleader version but not in the Grenzo one.

In a Grenzo-centric buil, why not, but in the classic one it is really a nonbo with ringleader, and really inferior.

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Grenzo can be dropped at turn 4 (or even at turn 3) with vial and you can spend all your 4 mana to flip cards.. Grenzo could have already been flipping cards at turn 3 because you played him at turn 2. Connecting lackey at turn 2 will allow you to start flipping cards at turn 2 as well ;)

And don't forget that it's not Ringleader or Grenzo.. Grenzo competes with MWM and instigator.. maybe even with Matron and Piledriver?

I don't like grenzo over ringleader. The cards hit the graveyard and are immediately susceptible to yard hate. Do I believe people will be boarding in R.I.P. if this becomes a thing? Probably not, the ringleader just seems strictly better for monocolor/haste reasons. It's the best card in Goblins, I don't feel Grenzo should be compared to ringleader.

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Originally Posted by potatodavid

I don't like grenzo over ringleader. The cards hit the graveyard and are immediately susceptible to yard hate. Do I believe people will be boarding in R.I.P. if this becomes a thing? Probably not, the ringleader just seems strictly better for monocolor/haste reasons. It's the best card in Goblins, I don't feel Grenzo should be compared to ringleader.

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As I said before.. Genzo doesn't compete with Ringleader. I would never suggest dropping Ringleaders.. I'm talking about about the power level of the card and comparing it to Ringleader (our most powerful card) gives a good indication of how powerful it really is. You'd be pretty bonkers, in my opinion, to run 3-4 MWM exclusive to any number of Grenzos.

Ringleader: 2/2 3R haste. Puts 0-4 goblin cards into your hand.
Grenzo: 2+x/2+x (x)BR. Puts 0-xx creature cards into play.
Mogg War-Marshal: 1/1 1R (+echo). Puts 1 1/1 goblin into play and maybe another one.

Im founding incredibly dificult to build a deck with Grenzo. Im starting to think that a build with only 4-5 removals should be better.
Cutting Ports because of it doesnt make sense, since theyre both powerful when not togheter, and can eventually be good togheter too.
Putting him in Instigator lists looks good to me because we can actually overload the board with must answer creatures. On the other hand, with mwm we can buy ourselves enough time to really abuse him.
Could nit manage to build a rwb list YET. Quite hard to fit Thalia. The manabase is workable though.

I hope that someday i get to live the dream of ramdomly getting like a SGC and a Chieftain the same turn. That would be sick.

Edit= 3 decklista ready. Wil post them tomorrow =D

Enviado de meu GT-S6313T usando Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by potatodavid

I don't like grenzo over ringleader. The cards hit the graveyard and are immediately susceptible to yard hate. Do I believe people will be boarding in R.I.P. if this becomes a thing? Probably not, the ringleader just seems strictly better for monocolor/haste reasons. It's the best card in Goblins, I don't feel Grenzo should be compared to ringleader.

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The only grave hate the cards are susceptible to is RiP and LotV. I would be thrilled to see either of those boarded against us. Then just bash with Grenzo as a 5/5 beater or something.

I actually put This Grenzo List together with appropriate proxies, and gave it a few games. Preliminary testing shows his niche role is to put goblins into play in the face of Counterspell and Counterbalance, and being a 3/3 about as often as he is a 2/2. The Counterspell argument we were not very worried about to begin with, but the body has been relevant a few times. Remember you can pay 1 into X if you have a Goblin Warchief out without using any extra mana. 601.2e if anyone was curious, though it does not say it directly, the wording is there. (Have Goblin Warchief out. Declare "Spending (1)(R)(B), (1) from Goblin Warchief, to cast Grenzo, Dungeon Warden." Actually just spend (R)(B).)


4 Goblin Lackey
1 Skirk Prospector
4 Goblin Piledriver
2 Grenzo, Dungeon Warden
2 Mogg War Marshal
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 AEther Vial
3 Mountain
2 Badlands
2 Plateau
4 Arid Mesa
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland

2 Earwig Squad
1 Stingscourger
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
2 Perish
2 Wear
2 Confusion in the Ranks
4 Rest in Peace

I put the SB together rather hastily. Needs at least 1 more storm hate card, figured it didn't matter much since this is for testing Grenzo, Dungeon Warden. He won't even be relevant in that match up. I haven't even noticed the Goblin Ringleader issue. I'm positive it will come up, I only played about 10 games, a few each against Miracles, RUG Delver and 1 against Merfolk, because that particular player must be a Masochist.


Edit -- I apparently had Grenzo, Dungeon Warden listed as Rakdos Guildmage. I copied and pasted it from another program and was using them as a substitute. Sorry for the confusion if it caused any.