[Deck] The Rock

both cards are awesome, but i play vindicates over pulse, since i am allready playing some fleshbag marauders(maybe replaced by diabolic edict not sure yet) main, and since i am just playing one wasteland as part of my landtoolbox, it comes handy to be able to destroy some bothering lands

and i do not think we should rethink our naming, we are still the midrange boardcontrol-beatdown deck we used to be, and i do not think deranget hermit has anything to do with this :P


@ spikeymikey:

i now see why in your build extirpates are good, but your build is tuned in that direction as well, mine is more manadependant

with 4 wastelands, and vindicates, plus discard, extirpates becomes really strong, but still to situational, and the manabase forces you to go lower in range of CB

with only 1 wasteland and vindicates mainly for card for all purposes and not landdestruction, extirpates are not so strong, since i do not really try to screw my opponent, plus with my manabase it is easier to support more 3cc spells, specially colordependant ones

but i like your idea of 3/3 split between swords and edicts, maybe i will try that out too

The split between Swords and Edicts was discussed a little while ago as well. I like it quite a bit. (I'm Matt, and I approve this 3/3 Split :D)

-Matt

Thanks for all the input guys. I was originally liking pulse more, but I see what you're saying about it's power to mess up tempo and such and I agree. Mikey, I really like your list with the MD extirpates, and I can see how strong they could be with vindicate plus wasteland, that's awesome.

Anyway, thanks again everyone :)

EDIT: I think why I might have preferred Pulse originally is cause my meta tends to have a good deal of merfolk, goblins, and belcher, all of which Pulse is great against.

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Originally Posted by AggroSteve

and i do not think we should rethink our naming, we are still the midrange boardcontrol-beatdown deck we used to be, and i do not think deranget hermit has anything to do with this :P

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The deck was originally called "The Rock and his Millions." The Deranged Hermit was the Rock and his squirrel tokens were his millions. But more than that I was referring to the idea that of the iconic "Rock" cards, Deed (and to a lesser extent Vindicate) are the only ones we run. No Spiritmonger, no Yavimya Elder, no Rofellos. I dunno, it's just a thought but it seems to me like calling Bant Survival "ATS" even though there's no Tradewind Rider. Like yeah, it's in colors and it is a descendant of the deck but a very distant one at best.

Well I think people have taken "The Rock" to mean any GBW deck that is midrangy. I don't think there's any problem in keeping the name; it's not the only deck that has kept the same name, yet has changed drastically. I mean, technically there have been Zoo decks forever, and it's still called Zoo today because it's a fast beatdown deck with reach. We're still called The Rock because we're still a GBW midrange deck.

I think that Phyrexian Plaguelord had something to do with the name "the Rock" as well, as a pun to the wrestler with the same name, who channels his powers through the support of his audience (but i wouldn't really know that for sure, i guess).
Plaguelord was a strong piece by itself, but with the help of recursion and little rancored rats, squirrels, elves and 187 guys, he became rock hard to deal with.

So, basically, the toolbox and recurring approach of some BGW decks can be considered the Rock (less so the aggro lists with not-so-great-late-game, i would call those BGW Jank or Goodstuff). All the cards in those colors that are getting better in the midgame, supporting eachother on different levels, can be considered "rockish".
In the current metagame, such "wrestlers" are Elspeth, Knight of the Reliquary, Survival of the Fittest, Recurring Nightmare.

But that is just from my perspective and understanding.
And because the pool of cards for this deck is very deep, since the deck is situational and reacts to the metagame (it performs great in well defined metagames, not so much in unknown space), the distinction between the Rock and the Jank, at least in Legacy, is not that important.

Hi, I'm new on the source after a fair bit of lurking. I've been testing some of the newer cards with a rockish shell for a while. I played survival, NO and most possible combinations. I've come to like the following list though it is far from conventional:

4 Noble Heirarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Eternal Witness

4 Bitterblossom
2 Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Vindicate
3 Sensei's divining top

4 Verdant catacombs
4 Windswept heath
3 Savanna
3 Bayou
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Wasteland

This list has performed very well VS aggro. It still folds to storm unfortunately but performs admirably vs blue based control. I based this on the concept that deed is cumbersome as it limits the threats/bombs that the deck can play. I've realised for a long time that Jitte + blossom= Game win most of the time. With the printing of Stoneforge, the deck essentially plays 5 jittes and 4 Sofi. I'm playing Heirarch mainly because it gives exalted (which is surprisingly relevant very often) and most importantly because it carries equipment like a champ. 4 Vindicates because countertop thopter is starting to pop up alot. I foresee problems vs natural order decks, so maybe 2/3 edicts are in order. However, I'll put them in the board as the maindeck is pretty tight. What equipment + blossom gives you is bomb plays that will win the game if unanswered. I've always felt that was what the rock was lacking. Natural order in rock was so-so as I've always had my NO countered and that usually led to a gameloss. Forcing/countering a stoneforge/blossom is not terrible for us as it is just a 1 card/2 mana investment. Any thoughts? Cheers, Ivan.

I don't think Storm is quite as relevant as it used to be, at least ANT isnt. I think we'll be seeing more Doomsday, so I think packing Leyline of Sanctity/Diabolic Edict will be important.

-Matt

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Originally Posted by ivanpei

Hi, I'm new on the source after a fair bit of lurking. I've been testing some of the newer cards with a rockish shell for a while. I played survival, NO and most possible combinations. I've come to like the following list though it is far from conventional:

list

This list has performed very well VS aggro. It still folds to storm unfortunately but performs admirably vs blue based control. I based this on the concept that deed is cumbersome as it limits the threats/bombs that the deck can play. I've realised for a long time that Jitte + blossom= Game win most of the time. With the printing of Stoneforge, the deck essentially plays 5 jittes and 4 Sofi. I'm playing Heirarch mainly because it gives exalted (which is surprisingly relevant very often) and most importantly because it carries equipment like a champ. 4 Vindicates because countertop thopter is starting to pop up alot. I foresee problems vs natural order decks, so maybe 2/3 edicts are in order. However, I'll put them in the board as the maindeck is pretty tight. What equipment + blossom gives you is bomb plays that will win the game if unanswered. I've always felt that was what the rock was lacking. Natural order in rock was so-so as I've always had my NO countered and that usually led to a gameloss. Forcing/countering a stoneforge/blossom is not terrible for us as it is just a 1 card/2 mana investment. Any thoughts? Cheers, Ivan.

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Have you tested Cabal Therapy in that list? It seems like it would help boost your disruption, maybe helping your combo/control matches. It has really incredible synergy with Thoughtseize, Eternal Witness, and Bitterblossem. I might try 2 in the Inquisition of Kozilek and Vindicate #4 slots. It functions as more synergistic discard than Inquisition and can preempitively hit problem cards you'd be expending Vindicate on.

Either way cool list.

Now when ANT is more or less gone, won't The Rock get atleast DTB status? The only real bad matchup is against spellbased combo anyway.

Decks to Beat are considered rampant, top tier decks played all over the world, placing highly in various tournaments. Unfortunately, the Rock isn't a cheap deck to build, is somewhat difficult to pilot well, and therefore does shot up at tournaments all that much. The problem is, the Rock does decently well against everything. The problem is, it does exceptionally well against nothing, which is why some don't really don't want to push the deck into the DTB category. Another problem? There's a bajillion builds of it, whereas most Tier 1 decks are pretty rigid in their list. Zoo is a pretty standard set of cards, as is Merfolk, Goblins, New Horizons, etc. But, we're definitely Tier 1.5, as we can hold our own in most places. The only real problem is ANT, and Zoo can be a pain, depending on your build.

-Matt

Therapy is a good idea. I might try that. I still think vindicate 4 is a must play since I don't play any deeds. I can see cutting the inquisition and probably a top for 2 therapy. Will test it to see how it pans out. The rock is expensive to build, I agree and I doubt many people will go building it when they start getting into legacy. The deck just doesn't have any "broken" plays to make it attractive (ie natural order progenitus or reanimate iona). It is a collection of synergistic cards that work well together and has a strong matchup against the field, sort of like Jund in standard. However, Jund is cheap and the rock isnt. ;)

It is a pricey deck indeed. But as is, i have been liking the deck concept since i have seen first lists with Deed (when Vampiric Tutor was still extended staple, cca Mirrodin times). Until then, i have collected a healthy portion of deck staples, some of them are quite outdated now (Baloth, Elder, FTK, Birds), but Witnesses, Therapys, Vindicates and Deeds really proved themselves over all those years.
Since Lorwyn i haven't really been around so i need to get PWs and duals, now that they are expensive (i didn't have money back then when duals were 15-20 € apiece).
But card accumulation is an ongoing process, im pretty happy i got Catacombs, Flats and Knights this year. I can almost call it a year:)

Well, I would say pick up the duals little by little, and you'll really love having them when you finally get them :D

-Matt

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Originally Posted by sdematt

Well, I would say pick up the duals little by little, and you'll really love having them when you finally get them :D

-Matt

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Well i managed to get 2x Savannah and 1x Bayou, but i guess i need some more :D Still, i can't really convince myself to invest in Scrublands, since they are pretty much useless outside of the Rock. If i could get them for really cheap, however..

Yeah, the Badlands and Scrublands are the most narrow at the moment. But, think about it in terms of building a 40-set. Once you have them all, you can build anything. Plus, they're only ~$30, so they're not too bad of a wallet breaker.

-Matt

Hello,
Its been awhile since i played rock and i wanted to hear some comments or suggestions on my current build. I know i have to test it more but so far its been doing okay except that maybe in tournys i will always go the distance of last 5 turns. Other than that i think its okay.

thanks

Lands [21]
3 wasteland
4 verdant catacombs
1 windswept heath
1 marsh flats
2 swamp
5 forest
4 bayou
1 volrath's stronghold

Spells [23]
4 inquisition of kozilek
2 cabal teraphy
2 thoughtseize
3 smother
2 diabolic eddict
4 maelstorm pulse
2 pernicious deed
2 harmonize
2 grim discovery

Creatures [16]
3 wall of blossoms
4 tarmogoyf
2 eternal witness
4 kitchen finks
2 obstinate baloth
1 shriekmaw

Sideboard [15]
3 krosan grip
3 extirpate
1 relic of progenitus
1 tormod's crypt
1 ravenous trap
3 duress
1 pernicious deed
2 consuming vapors

Ever since they unbanned Entomb, I've been fascinated with using it in The Rock. I tried several previous builds that didn't work too well, and being preoccupied with other decks (and other things in general), I kinda put the idea on hold.

The reason why I like Entomb so much, is that it sets up an engine. The Rock is a midrange deck, and engines are what give this deck its midrange strength. Now, when most people think of engine, they probably immediately think of Life from the Loam. What most people probably don't think of, is Genesis.

That's right, Genesis.

Why Genesis? Well, Genesis is very unique. Unlike Volrath's Stronghold, Genesis actually creates card advantage. That's right, card advantage. Every upkeep, you get the option to pay 2G to return a creature to hand, and you still get your normal draw for the turn. This makes Genesis not just useful a means of recursion, it makes Genesis an engine.

What's so good about Genesis as an engine, though? Well, if you're playing with Pernicious Deed, you can sweep the board at will. It makes Pernicious Deed very asymmetrical. It also makes cards like Cabal Therapy alot stronger, too.

However, there's more to it than just wiping the board clean with Pernicious Deed, and then recurring your Tarmogoyf. Once you get Genesis in the yard, all future Entombs can tutor for any creature in the deck. That means recurring creature removal with Shriekmaw, and recurring artifact/enchantment removal with Qasali Pridemage.

Since the deck's already in G/B/w, we might as well toss in a Loam too. Since the deck is focused on abusing Genesis instead of Loam, Loam is there to simply ensure consistent land drops, and grow Knight of the Reliquary. With the ability to tutor for lands with Knight of the Reliquary (and possibly Entomb), a 2/1/1 split of Horizon Canopy, Wasteland, and Volrath's Stronghold doesn't sound like bad idea, either.

Here's the list I've started with:

G/B/w Entomb Rock

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
3 [R] Bayou
2 [R] Savannah
1 [R] Scrubland
1 [UNH] Forest
1 [UNH] Swamp
1 [UNH] Plains
2 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
1 [TE] Wasteland
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold

// Creatures
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
3 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
3 [LRW] Shriekmaw
1 [JU] Genesis

// Spells
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [OD] Entomb
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed


I just want to point out, that this deck is very resilient to graveyard hate. Even if the opponent does shut down Genesis, Loam, or both, the deck still functions very well without those cards. Their are only a few cards dedicated towards the engine, and the rest of the deck is a very efficient Rock shell.

I'd also like to say that Cabal Therapy has some savage synergy in this deck.

Thoughts?

EDIT: I'm highly debating if Birds of Paradise should be Noble Hierarch, even though Hierarch doesn't produce black mana. The exalted triggers would be very useful...

EDIT 2: I'm actually debating the accelerant slot altogether. Opinions on this?

Hm, I like the list Hanni. It's going in a new direction, and it's always nice to see fresh innovation. I'll take a more thorough look over it tomorrow, but so far, I like what I see.

Personally though, I think if you run a few more black lands thant he others, you can use Noble Hierarch to great effect. I find it's pivotal in winning Goyf wars, and most of the time, you don't miss not making black.

-Matt

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Hm, I like the list Hanni. It's going in a new direction, and it's always nice to see fresh innovation. I'll take a more thorough look over it tomorrow, but so far, I like what I see.

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Thanks. Like I said, I've been wanting to make a good Entomb Rock deck for a while, and I think that I finally put a strong list together. I was originally working on a version before that was centered around Loam, but the deck was slow and clunky. Making Genesis the primary engine is much faster, and much more efficient. Plus, there's more synergy in here with Genesis; Genesis makes Pernicious Deed and Cabal Therapy much stronger.

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Personally though, I think if you run a few more black lands thant he others, you can use Noble Hierarch to great effect. I find it's pivotal in winning Goyf wars, and most of the time, you don't miss not making black.

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I agree. I tried both Nimble Mongoose and Noble Hierarch in the Birds of Paradise spots. Nimble Mongoose was good, but I think acceleration is better overall. I then tried Noble Hierarch, and he was great. He can be a threat if necessary, he's never useless when you don't need the extra mana because he offers Exalted triggers, and he helps accelerate the early game. The fact that he doesn't tap for black is mostly irrelevant, since I usually fetch Bayou first anyway.

I also put together a sideboard finally. I was playing alot of test games without a sideboard so I could figure out what I needed.

I came up against Ichorid, and got boned in g1. So I made a sideboard of 3 Crypt and 1 Bojuka Bog for games 2 and 3. Crypt was entirely unecessary once I got Bojuka/Wasteland with Knight of the Reliquary and Life from the Loam.

After the fact, I decided a 2/2 split of Bojuka Bog and Faerie Macabre would be best, since it varies the hate, and it gives me options during the game in regards to tutoring with Entomb. Genesis/Faerie Macabre is strong, and Knight of the Reliquary/Bojuka Bog is strong as well.

Then I ran into a Landstill/Planeswalker control deck (piloted by white_ghost). I thought I was dominating with Loam + Genesis card advantage against him, but really, the game ended up with me winning due to him decking. Yea, long game. 4 Swords/4 Path makes Genesis recursion difficult, and Humility shutting down Genesis slowed me down as well. In light of this, I've decided that Worm Harvest, Gigapede, and Raven's Crime should be somewhere in the decks 75. I'd really like to fit Worm Harvest in the maindeck, but the list feels so tight and I have no idea what to cut.

I think a 1-of Karakas would be a good idea for Emrakul (and to a lesser extent, Iona). I don't think Tabernacle is necessary, especially since I only run 1 Wasteland. Maze of Ith has potential, but I don't think it's necessary.

I also added 4 Path to Exile for aggro matchups, and 3 Krosan Grip for randomness.

I still don't have an answer to a resolved Progenitus, but I'm not sure if it's worth running narrow answers for it.

Here's the sideboard:

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [EVE] Raven's Crime
SB: 1 [EVE] Worm Harvest
SB: 1 [ON] Gigapede
SB: 2 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 2 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 [LG] Karakas


I'm going to edit my decklist in my above post to have Noble Hierarch instead of Birds of Paradise.