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Apparently, Blodghast Ichorid is getting some results. For instance it got 1st out of 95 people at the October Event of the Catalan League, and also took first place in the Madrid's League Finals. Without being an Ichorid expert at all, I found interesting the Madrid's list (the other not being published yet) as it combines both Ichorid and Bloodghast. You can see it here. Just for the scientific interest of worldwide Ichorid players.
I like this list except for one thing - The lack of discard outlets. What exactly does this deck do if it doesn't manage to open with Careful Study or Putrid Imp, of which it runs seven? Beyond that your best hope is to DDD a Troll or lead by aiming Cabal Therapy at yourself.
I'm willing to say I'm not the world's largest fan of Tireless Tribe, if for no other reason than I find it hard to always have the white for it. But there's got to be some kind of outlet here.
I'm yet to be impressed by Bloodghast. In my own testing it didn't perform any better than Ichorid. Half the matches I've watched with another player running the card they got screwed by not drawing Undiscoverd Paradise in their starting seven - seems like an unnecessary way to allow your deck to crap on you.
Obviously Bloodghast is better if you do get it in your opening seven, but it's still useful regardless. It returns for quick Therapies if you get an early Careful Study and have multiple lands, it returns if you dredge a Dakmor Salvage, and if all else fails, feed it to Ichorid for more Ichorid swings/Zombie Generation.Quote:
Originally Posted by sunshine
It also uses 4xBreakthrough, so there are 10 discard cards. But there are no petals... Maybe darkmor salvages are there in case you are forced to breakthrough on the first turn, donīt know.
Sure, I'm more questioning the inclusion of Bloodghast in place of Ichord - not alongside it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
Edit: Sorry, I should have clarified that my comment was not in reference to that list just posted.
i was considdering testing a version with bloodghasts, together with life from the loam to ensure landdrops, and maybe also a few greater gargadon as an additional sac-outlet.
i'll post up some results if i can get round to some good testing in the next few days
I thought the exact same thing. Otherwise, the list looks like something I'd want to test drive. In another case scenario, I think your DDDs become that much more potent, especially if you're palming a land, and even more so if you're palming a land AND a Breakthrough, which this deck curiously chose to run over maxing out on discard outlets first.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
@ Muradin
The classic Needle problem is knowing what to name. Too many intelligent deckbuilders are going 2/2 on Relic/Crypt. Of course, Null rod doesn't care, but being forced to actually open with it + 2 lands, you are even further limited. The essential problems with these cards:Quote:
I' ve been playing Needle in LED dredge for years now and definitely like it's ability to just say no to relic and so on. However Grudge is definitely more synergistic, more flexible and doesn't have to be in your opening hand. I guess it's just better in LED-less dredge as it hits stupid stuff like Dreadnoughts and Jittes as well.
- you absolutely must open or raw-draw into these
- you have to assume your opponent has no way to disrupt you
A single Daze on Null rod, a Force on Needle, a Thoughtseize, what-have-you, is enough to make your less-than-optimal hand which was kept for the sake of being able to answer opposing GY hate a loss.
Ancient Grudge isn't just a more versatile card because it directly destroys artifacts, and can possibly do it twice, and doesn't care if it is in your hand or GY, and can afford to be discarded/countered in many cases, but frankly, it let's you keep a much more diverse set of opening hands and drawing strategies. You don't have to open with a Grudge, and that really matters for a deck with such distinct needs in the opener and future draw requirements.
Grudge has the ability to operate from within the traditional 1st and 2nd turn playstyle of Ichorid, whereby you actually want to be dropping Tribe/PImp, and then from there you can either hard-cast from hand , discard->flash for 1 less, or if you didn't open, then bait your opponent by starting to dredge into your grudge.
Grudge gives the Ichorid player more ways to force opponents into using Graveyard hate too early. The "use it or lose it" question posed from our Grudge is quite effective, and it fits nicely into our original gameplan. Take this example (perhaps too simple of an example), I assume artifact GY hate, and I've boarded in Grudge, but I didn't open with one:
Op: Land->Relic
Me: Land->PImp
Op: /stuff + 1-land Untapped ->EoT Discard: 1x Fodder + 1x Dredger->Tap Relic, RFG Fodder
Me: Dredge->Check for Grudge->Flash Grudge->Pop Relic->Dredger is still in hand.
Grudge gives more paths to penetrating opposing control features than the other pieces of hate, and works nicely under our original shell. The instant speed of Grudge is fantastic as well. Grudge naturally lends itself to a deck which is foregoing some of the advantages of exploding on the opponent for the 1-dredge per-turn until your fundamental turn.
Instead of proactive answers like Needle/Rod, I've found slowing rolling through hate has been the most effective way to manage it. If I don't destroy it outright from my opener, I want to bait them or force them to use it supoptimally. I generally assume they'll be mulling into an answer or a way to find that answer quickly. If they don't, then I'm generally going to take advantage and just alpha-strike them, otherwise, I carefully roll over the speedbumps, setting up for the therapy protected alpha-strike turn (keeping in mind board sweepers and the potential to draw into more GY hate) where I'm finally going to abuse Bridges to do broken things.
@ BloodGhast
The card is fairly unique. A couple thoughts:
- It was nice when I open with Bloodghast + Paradise + Discard Outlet and/or Dredge machine, as I'm able to incrementally use it from start to finish. However, most of the time you won't be opening with perfect hands, and in many cases, the cards that were replaced by Bloodghast+cronies would have done more for me than Bloodghast did.
- On average, if you are able to recur Bloodghast, then you've already taken the steps to dredge a bunch, have a bridge or two, and were likely in a good position to begin with.
- Bloodghast takes up slots that were required to get to even get to the position where he is useful, namely Discard/Draw outlets and perhaps a Dredger.
- Bloodghast requires you to change your manabase, and overall, I'm less pleased with it.
- It adds up to Bloodghast hurting your first two turns overall, being anywhere from useless Ichorid fodder to yet another good way to abuse Therapy/DR/Bridge in the mid, to a usually unnecessary alphastrike team on your fundamental turn. He makes for great game 1's, but I think he hurts the deck in games 2 and 3.
- What Bloodghast brings to the table hasn't seemed worth the losses in my ability to actually dredge, moreover to actually recover and continue dredging against hate elements.
- Taco's DRless list actually abused this guy without taking as much of a hit in the ability to just freakin' dredge, but that came at a cost that probably isn't acceptable either.
peace,
4eak
The thing that Bloodghast helps with is the part where you're flipping cards off your library and need to hit those g'damn Narcomoebas (which can actually be quite troublesome at times). So it doesn't actually help with the entire setting up part, but it ups your token generating ability and beats. I also think that it does put on a different kind of pressure, allowing you to maintain a somewhat better board position if your opponent doesn't either deal with your Bloodghasts on the board or the ones in the yard that are about to come back for more damage.
I'm not going to say whether or not it's worth it to cut dredgers/discard outlets for it though, cause I haven't tested the deck yet.
@4eak and Muradin; I would also really like to get some discussion going on sideboards and how to board. 4eak, I completely agree with wath your saying about Grudge, the card is amazing in LEDless. I would never play less than the full set in my board. It's biggest benefit to me is that it lets you keep excellent hands without hate which you probably need to mulligan if you're running Needle or Rod.
4eak, about the list you posted; how useful are Sphinx and FKZ in the side. The only matchup I can see us board it in is (storm)combo and it's not that you're massively improving that matchup with boarding those in as they're still usually just faster than we are. If there is a lot of combo in your meta, would we be better off running a set of CotV side?
I've read that some of you board out a random Ichorid sometimes, is that a good idea? I seem to win most of my games 2 and 3 on Ichorid beats...
A lot of people don't seem to run Firestorm in their side. I have also been wondering if the LEDless version needs it. While it can be useful against blue decks to ensure you get your dredgers in the yard, the main problem is I simply don't want to board in 7 or 8 cards. Do you think Firestorm should be run in the side or not?
Ichorid took the second place.Quote:
Originally Posted by godryk
Shouldn't these Bloodghast build run the 2xDread Return, 1xEternal Witness package just to recur Cephalid Coliseum, animate Bloodghasts and go nuts? That said, replacing Ichorid for Bloodghast hasn't been effective, he's situationally dependent, where Ichorid just recurs and beats consistently. I'm really debating Narcomoeba vs Bloodghast, because if you're not playing LED for combo then you're playing for attrition - how much speed are we losing?
@Breathweapon, Good call. Returns and eternal witness does fit better in this new set-up for bloodghast dredge. It opens the deck up to more possibilities.
About bloodghast vs ichorid, I honestly haven't had any playtime with my deck so I haven't tested this new list yet, so I'm not really sure how it plays out. I'll test it once I get a playset of bloodghasts.
From what I can understand from the lists I've seen, people tend to replace ichorid with ghasts because for either to be most effective, the whole deck should be more or less geared towards the abuse of either of the cards. Both Ichorid and Bloodghast serve the same purpose, thus making it sensible to replace one with the other to keep the decked more focused on a certain gameplan. Both cards also have their own pros that are magnified and cons that are reduced by carefully tuning the lists to optimize the use of the cards.
Narcomoeba, imo, shouldn't be replaced at all because it's virtually a free creature, you don't have to anything except dredge into it. It is often said that its drawback is when it shows up in your hand, it becomes useless, more often than not, I'd mull a hand with narc in it unless i can cast it. It's a creature that doesn't require you to do anything but dredge to put into play, thus making it one of the more efficient creatures in the deck.
Has anyone seriously tested playing Ichorid and Bloodghast and Narcomoeba together? Maybe in a 3-3-4 division? Playing either Ichorid and Ghast haven't been best, so why not play both? Ghast just needs a little tweaking with the manabase to be usable. I play 3 breakthroughs, 3 tribes, 3 returns, and 3 targets. Maybe cutting 1 each of 3 from the mentioned cards to make space. Has anyone tried to do this or is it pushing the deck to do too much?
just my 2 cents.
This is the list that won a decent size tournament in Spain:
creature [27]
4 Bloodghast
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
2 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
1 Sphinx of Lost Truths
4 Stinkweed Imp
sorcery [14]
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Careful Study
3 Dread Return
enchantment [4]
4 Bridge from Below
land [15]
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
2 Dakmor Salvage
1 Gemstone Mine
4 Undiscovered Paradise
60 cards
Sideboard:
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Sadistic Hypnotist
1 Woodfall Primus
4 Ancient Grudge
4 Firestorm
4 Unmask
15 cards
I ran a similar list in a small tournament 2 weeks ago. It worked well for me. I ran an Iona in the board due to alot of mono-tribal decks in my meta. I'd love to squeeze and Eternal Witness in the main though.
@potatofloss: thanks for the solid list. I'd probably re-tune my list in reference to this list.
How bout replacing the Sphinx for the Witness? Witness can essentially do what Sphinx does by getting back breakthrough with therapy back-up, right?
10 dredgers seems enough, i guess.
How's the deck's consistency especially post-board without any tribes? I'd probably go -1 return, -1 ghast for 2 tribes.
It's actually 12 dredgers. I think you forgot the two Dakmor Salvage. I'd personally like to be able to fit 1 FKZ, 1 Sphinx, and one Witness in. The Sphinx is a pretty solid beater on top of being a good draw engine.
oh, I forgot about that, I didn't consider salvage's dredge 2 to be enough to get the deck running. lol
how was the deck post-board? Has playing answers become a tad bit more difficult because of salvage CIP tapped and it producing only black mana, and paradise virtually holding you off getting more permanent lands in play?
I am working on this at the moment. Havent settled on a list yet but I have been working along with my team mates on making a slower yet inevitable list.Quote:
Originally Posted by bum_man