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Tokens often don't get there, I've seen Zoo and Goblins bring in mass removal (clasm). I would rather not see it, it's just not used against those decks that much. I'd rather take it out because I never want to see it on Ad Nauseam against them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Muradin
Both decks had Mindbreak trap. Thoughtseize loses life in a match-up where your life is very valuable.
One thing I've started testing that has had good results is a single cabal therapy in the board as a wish target. I got the idea from Bryant's GP match analysis about a player who had two mindbreak traps in his hand and not being able to go off against both of them. Yes, silence and orim's chant can work better in those kinds of situations but you won't always have the free white mana floating around to cast them. Also if you use it with EtW you can sac a goblin to pull anything else out of their hand that could be a problem if you want to go for a quick tendrils win.
So... if you're already winning it's good? Do you play Cabal Ritual too?Quote:
Originally Posted by Zhukai
The flashback on therapy is useless, you've already attempted to win. It's not going to do anything relevant.
After playing around with your build Bryant im just going to have to disagree with not having internal SB. I was able to mull down to three (wish LED LED) and with a lucky string of draws still go off on turn four with wish > tutor cracking both less > ad naus.
Yeah... Or you couldve Diminishing Returns earlier.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuad
I was 4-1 today at the togit event going into round 6 with tes I got paired down and my opponent couldn't draw...i lost round 6 to thopter top. I beat Team America rd 1, The Gate rd 2, a R/W deck with trinisphere, chants, white leyline, chalice of the void and bloodmoon rd 3, I lost to Saito's merfolk list rd 4, beat enchantress (md white leyline...eye to nowhere is good) rd 5. I got paired down round 6 (otherwise I'd of drawn in) and lost to thopters.
Neuad...you definitley should have cast diminishing returns earlier. The 4th infernal definitley belongs in the main currently and is usually an easy card to cut and have in the sb for games 2 and 3.
I took Bryant's latest list from page 1 and tested it for a week (because I wanted to play combo for the longest time, I have been playing tempo decks for more than a year) the only difference is the sideboard. This was how I ran mine:
2 Xantid Swarm
1 Eye of Nowhere
1 Wipe Away
1 Deathmmark
1 Echoing Truth
1 Shattering Spree
1 Grapeshot
1 Diminishing Returns
2 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Chain of Vapor
With tournaments as the only venue for experience, the deck and I made its first tourney to a 3-3 record in a local tournament here in our place (Manila). Winning against Dredge, Goblins and Zoo, then losing to Landstill, Zoo and Aeon Bridge. My lesson? I should have tested more. The deck was powerful, but I found myself punting the games I should have won. I went 15th in a group of 38 players. Going into round 6 i am 9th, I lost to Aeon Bridge so I was not able to make it to top 8.
Now that the tourney's over, here are my dilemmas: (notes are sketchy since the deck was totally mind-numbing)
1. I can't make Diminishing Returns work. Twice I used it on the tourney and twice it whiffed.
Scenario with Landstill: He's under an Orim's Chant from Petal, I have Burning Wish, casted off 2 lands, lots of mana to be produced off 2 LEDs, but can only produce 6 storm because I pondered off the 2nd LED. He's at 20. I can't Wish for ETW because he has Engineered Exposives in the graveyrd and an Academy Ruins in play. I can't TOA because it's 3 spells short. I can't IGG because I don't have access to Infernal. I went for DR, but my grip of 7 landed me lands, acceleration, but no mana tutors or cantrips. Should I have waited for a better hand? Or did I do the right play but DR just pooped on me on that moment?
Scenario with Zoo: Game 3, I am at 11 life, and he has 1 mana open for a potential Bolt facing down 2 Goyfs and a 3/3 Nacatl. I am dead next turn. I must win now. I knew that he has a Volcanic Fallout because I saw him play it the round before, and I beat him game 2 with ETW tokens. I am forced to go off and he still has a grip of 6. I go Chrome, Rite, Rite, LED, LED. Burning Wish. Again, i can't ETW unless I will run into Fallout. Tendrils is short. No Infernal so I can't IGG loop. I tried DR again. Same thing, but this time landed me all acceleration but no means to find a tutor. I guess my mistake here against this particular zoo matchup is that I didn't sideout the 4th Infernal Tutor, have I sided out the Infernal I could have easily won.
2. Out of all my victories, the wishing for both ETW and TOA gave me the most victories, but I guess I am not playing it right, since most of you guys swear on the 4 Infernal MD. Most of the time I try to go off with just Wish, LED and acceleration and it either forces me to DR or IGG for something ridiculous enough that I would whiff (because sometimes I wish for IGG, crack LED discarding my Infernal then do an IGG loop, only to find the I am a mana short in the end stretch), but if there was an Infernal in the SB, I could have gone for the critical storm much easier.
Next question. I wanted everyone's opinion because this cost me my Round 6 match. I could have had a chance for the top 8 if I hadn't lost this.
I am facing Aeon Bridge that I know has Forces, Thoughtseizes and Stifles.
This is my opening hand on the play: Duress, Sea, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Ad Nauseaum, Silence, Scalding Tarn.
What's the better choice? Turn 1 Duress, or just go for it?
I went for Duress, And saw a hand of 3 lands, 1 Duress, 1 Thoughtseize, 1 Ponder and 1 Stifle.
I am still kicking myself for not going for it.
All in all, this is a really cool deck and I am sold in the combo bandwagon. :) Probably I will share more of what I learned and learn here as well.
I don’t like that sideboard at all. Xantid Swarm is too difficult to cast with Duals and Fetches. Two Ill-Gotten Gains? Why? Doesn’t seem right.Quote:
Originally Posted by cranksmith
Bad beats dude. It’s apart of playing combo. But there’s times when Diminishing Returns will be the nut high.Quote:
Originally Posted by cranksmith
I don’t know if boarding out Infernal is right. You want more business in your deck against Zoo.Quote:
Originally Posted by cranksmith
How are you short with an Infernal in the graveyard? Why wouldn’t you wait if you were short on mana or go for returns. If you have two LED’s it’s impossible to be short on mana with Infernal.Quote:
Originally Posted by cranksmith
I would’ve Duress’d too.Quote:
Originally Posted by cranksmith
I've considered adding a 2nd IGG to the sideboard so you can side it in against zoo as Ad Nauseam isn't great against them and it seems easy to side out ETW or the 2nd Ad Nauseam depending on what you have in that slot. I'm not sure if it's right as I need to test it but it's a possibility if you have room in your board.
Meaning that you're siding something specifically for a good matchup?Quote:
Originally Posted by lebron jim
Something ive been considering, seeing as my last loss was at the GP was to a double leyline, tundra explosives start, has been to replace the eye to nowhere with a maelstom pulse. am i completely crazy here?
Bryant,
While it's certainly a good matchup both you and I have lost to it twice recently.
Yeah, I figured that as much based from the games I played. I will be removing the Swarms for my next outing. For the 2 Ill-Gotten Gains, I figured it's easier to reach 10+ storm if you have 2 IGG, meaning you can do the loop twice. But then again, it was a last-minute change since during the days of my testing, I was only using 1 IGG.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
Yeah. :) Agreed. i tested it today (complete with the experience I had with last night) and I am seeing better results now with DR. But it's still giving me a guess-timate of 50% fizzle rate, unlike yours when you stated in this thread that you are at 70% success rate with DR. I hope I am that lucky.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
I will continue to test Zoo. Probably there is someting I am doing wrong (or have kept the wrong hands) that made me lose that 2nd Zoo matchup. The first Zoo matchup (that I won), was never close. game1 - Turn 1 ETW for 10 tokens and game 2 - turn 2 TOA for 22.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
Because on that specific situation it's only 1 LED and 1 Dark Ritual in the graveyard, with Infernal Tutor, and I wished for an IGG. I guess it's the wrong play in retrospect and I miscalculated in my head that's why I was a mana short.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
yeah. bad beats. :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
Going back to the talk of putting 1 Infernal in the board, this is a situation that I sometimes found myself in that's why I miss that 1 Infernal in the board:
Hand: LED, Wish, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, 2 random cards (you can make the ritual as Rite of Flames)
in Play: Brass and Sea (or I guess any combination of lands)
With this hand I wish I had an Infernal, at least after wishing for Infernal, I can tutor for Ad nauseaum and start to go off, minus the risk factor of Diminishing Returns. Even with 0 starting mana after an Ad Nauseaum it's highly likely that you can hit your Moxes and Petals so you can cast what you need. You can ETW for 10-12 tokens though, but in some matchups that can be a poor choice.
I've lost to it twice this entire summer. Once to bad beats, the other to a pro who drew all of his hate cards. Are you really trying to say that an Ill-Gotten Gains is going to fix this? I don't see it fixing Gaddeck Teeg or Mindbreak trap.Quote:
Originally Posted by lebron jim
You only need one IGG, ever.Quote:
Originally Posted by cranksmith
It’ll grow on you.Quote:
Originally Posted by cranksmith
Should’ve waited or Returns.Quote:
Originally Posted by cranksmith
I understand why people want Infernal in the board, however, most of the time it’s in the sideboard - games two and three. For game one the deck is better having a higher threat density. I understand that Wishing for Tutor for Ad Nauseam is a safety net, it’s easy. I had this plan when I ran Mystical to make up for the threat density. You just need to not have the safety net for game one.Quote:
Originally Posted by cranksmith
Believe it or not Diminishing Returns, Ill-Gotten Gains, and Empty the Warrens will get there.
Folks, I understand your concerns and I know moving the 4th Tutor to the SB is very tempting, but Bryant is right - the Tutor can be boarded out anyways and G1 the higher threat density makes up for any problems you might run into some corner cases.
If anyone here knows how the deck should look like, it's Bryant - he developed that deck.
Is there a general consensus on the minimal amount of mana (and color) to have floating to safely diminishing returns?
I wish people would actually read the thread. This question is asked literally about every three or four pages.
There is no proper mana or time. It's when you feel you need to win. I personally like floating UB, however, if the time calls for it all I'll go all in with nothing floating.
That's all I needed to know. I understand there is no proper mana or time, but the fizzle rate obviously increases notably with one or zero mana. I just wanted to know how much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
I'm going to test this out stuff out this afternoon, and try to get the percentages for combinations of mana floating. This might be helpful to some of us when calculating when/how to go off.
The fizzle rate is almost irrelevant...you use returns when you're going to lose if you don't.