so pi4meterftw or forbiddian, what would be one of YOUR guys reccomendations as far as what 4 cards to take out when replacing them with PC against zoo?
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so pi4meterftw or forbiddian, what would be one of YOUR guys reccomendations as far as what 4 cards to take out when replacing them with PC against zoo?
Depending on our final choice of hate, it will definitely be between 4 wayfarers and 4 FOW. It won't be a mixture of these, it'll be either 4 of one or 4 of the other. If we choose PC, we'll probably cut FOW. If for some reason it's threads, we'll cut wayfarer. At the SCG 5K LA, wayfarer destroyed my opponent game 1 because he didn't recognize it was good. (This was the zoo player in top 4.)
I boarded out wayfarers games 2-3, as they're not meant to be that good. Against zoo, you tend to want creatures that perform close to their center, because just as soon as a creature starts to perform too well, zoo can burn it, and if you played more widely varying creatures, then zoo picks the ones that happen to be doing well, and leaves you with your crappy creatures. Wayfarer swings wildly dependent on how good the opponent is and draws.
However, wayfarer might actually be quite good behind a PC, since it guarantees that zoo doesn't have an endgame if left unchecked.
I guess the logic behind this is your opponent will start fetching his basics, making Wayfarer less effective, and that Wayfarer could be good if the zoo player draws too many of his duals?Quote:
I boarded out wayfarers games 2-3, as they're not meant to be that good. Against zoo, you tend to want creatures that perform close to their center, because just as soon as a creature starts to perform too well, zoo can burn it, and if you played more widely varying creatures, then zoo picks the ones that happen to be doing well, and leaves you with your crappy creatures. Wayfarer swings wildly dependent on how good the opponent is and draws.
No, I simply can't board wayfarer out g1. I wouldn't play wayfarer any of the 3 games if I didn't have to.
Have you guys discussed the validity of Path to Exile yet?Quote:
Originally Posted by pi4meterftw
I've been running them lately and boarding them in against Zoo and Merfolk, and it's been quite awesome as of late. It makes Merfolk an easier match up to handle, and gives me extra reliable ways to keep Lavamancers and Pridemages off the board. Obviously when you use them against Zoo, you don't really care much about trying to mana screw Zoo. Also, the Hatfields are running Treetop Villages in their builds lately, and if that build is getting big, using Wayfarer to tutor up Wasteland (with some help from P2E) would also be pretty nifty.
I'd rather run Condemn than PtE, I think (and I'm actually considering Condemn). Actually a big part of my Zoo gameplan is to win a percentage of the games off of mana screwed Zoo. Even the 24 land versions are shut down by triple waste every time, and usually crippled by 1 or 2 wastes. Maybe 15-20% of the games are decided by Zoo being mana screwed, so I'd wager you're going to give up 5-10% game win percentage against Zoo if you never pursue the LD plan.Quote:
Originally Posted by Citrus-God
The new tournament data is very interesting, I predicted that Reanimator would continue to grow, but didn't foresee it winning or even Top Xing. So we're working on moving cards around to beat the new metagame as much as we beat the one of a couple months ago (didn't change THAT much, but some things have changed).
Honestly, Jeff and I haven't really gone over the new metagame breakdown and what cards should move around, but we've identified BFT in particular as a problem spot. It hates out two decks that aren't played at all. So we're looking for a replacement for that. Not that trusty ole' BFT won't still be useful, but there's got to be a better card out there now. I even remember how much we debated before putting it in, it was like between I think Mind Harness, BEB, and BFT, but BFT was almost strictly better than the above although I remember a big reason for BEB was that Goblins was so big that countering the Ringleader outright was an important play.
It seems like Reanimator and Zoo are the two big decks now that we have to destroy, so I guess we're looking for a card that's good against one or both of those and can somewhat overlap BFT's role in keeping Goblins and Ichorid in check.
Some tech that happens to work against either deck is Meekstone. Iona and Levithan that don't untap? Itsa nice! Goyfs, KoTR's, and Nactl's that don't untap? I'll take 4. Conveniently it doesn't affect your own creature base too much either. The only creatures with +3 toughness are Avenger which has vigilance, and Grunt which dies anyway and serves its purpose in clearing the yard. It discourages your opponent from playing too many lords in the Elves and Merfolk matchup, AND it makes Progenitals only attack once.
While Looters do not generate any card advantage, they do often times generate card quality.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forbiddian
Tournament of about 20 people today, finished third (hope I got that right, I didn't check the final scoreboard since I was busy trading some duals :)), beating Elf Aggro (feat. Coat of Arms and Eldrazi Monument(!)), Mono Black Aggro (feat. Tombstalker and Vampire Nighthawk; without Dark Confidant or Nantuko Shade) and some (at least) Extended-legal Exalted + Lifelink WG Weenie 2-0, and losing to GW Survival 2-0. The last match (versus Survival) was a rough one, after having my die-roll of 17 crushed by his 18, I think I mulled down to 6 cards game one and 5 cards game 2, and didn't stand a chance (esp. game one, when he went nuts with 2 Noble Hierarch and 2 Mother of Runes I could not answer). I guess I was just unlucky this time, while this matchup certainly isn't one of the easier ones, I think it's slightly positive if UW Tempo isn't giving you the finger.
There isn't anything interesting to share this time (except for the fact that removing eight Jitte counters for +16/+16 on an Avenger two games in a row feels kinda cool :D), I do have a question though: Game 2 versus GW Survival, I (being on the play) mulled away a hand consisting of 3 land (2 fetchlands, 1 Tundra), Wheel of Sun and Moon, 2 Aura of Silence and Spell Pierce. Was this the right decision? Would you have kept a hand like that versus GW Survival? (Note that you don't have anything at hand to handle a critter or any kind of threat whatsoever, just hate for the Survival engine (which this deck can win without, actually).) Why yes, why no?
If you're not happy with a hand of plenty of land and three sideboard cards, you boarded wrong. As it turns out -- you did, Wheel of Sun and Moon isn't very good in that MU.Quote:
Originally Posted by colo
But I'd definitely keep that hand. You can ramp up to Aura pretty easily from the play, and then topdeck something better. I would stay open for SP on turn 2 if he plays a Hierarch, and then just cast the wheel if he doesn't. If you can keep Survival off the board, then you're the control player, so it's no big deal if your hand is slow.
Why did you mulligan it? It's kindof an ugly duckling without creatures, but his hand has to be like Goyf Goyf Goyf to really punish you for a slow start.
But I don't really see the average six card hand doing much better in that situation, and the average six card hand might also scoop it up to a Survival.
How would you side against GW survival? - Knight + last grunt? And it also seem that hand of SP, Wheel, double AoS and 3 lands would lose to any decently creature heavy hand, with anything from goyf pridemage kotr or mom. You have 3 cards in hand to deal with the 4 copies of the card that they have in the entire deck.
My side bard has been changed a bit since zoo and dredge are very large problems in my meta
1 relic
1 tomb
3 enlightened tutor
2 Aura of silence
1 thorn of amethist
1 Ethersworn canonist
2 pithing needle <i was having problem with survival and CB top as well as engineered explosives so this is a flexible spot>
1 propaganda <i prefer this over ghostly because its blue>
3 Wing shards <experimental slot because progenitus decks are on the rise in my meta also kils the big shrouded guys that arent iona, also solid agaisnt gobos and to some extent merfolk>
I woudl bring in 2 needles 2 aura 3 ET
More importantly... what would you take out?
that is the hard part it really depends on what i see game one.
but most the time its
-3 vial
-2 wayfarer
-1 mom
-1 fathom seer
you needle for Survival first then QPM but sometimes its correct to aim one at devoted retainer. Its very hard to decide what to pull out due to the fact that nothing is realy terribad against them.
this is kind of an all in board strategy as if Iona does hit then you cant just vial things in but I do it this way because most the time if she hits its over anyhow
This is your own fault. I included a sideboard list a while ago. Boarding in AOS vs. survival is bad. You don't want to try to destroy survival, because they usually get the initial bang for their buck out of having it just for like 1-2 turns. Additionally, they can grab witness to just get the survival back. AOS, wheel should both have been left out of this match.Quote:
Originally Posted by colo
I recommend printing out my sideboard list. It's outdated because the sideboard has actually changed, but unless you know what you're doing, kneejerking choices in the manner above can be kind of dangerous.
Needles are also very bad. I don't get what people see in pithing needle, but if you board something in, you want it to be GFG. Not just something your opponent can get rid of at his convenience, or even just ignore. I think what many people misunderstand is that the computations that go into deciding if a sideboard card is worth it are different.
For maindeck choices, it's more natural to care about the first moment (mean). For sideboard choices, higher moments are more important (variance/standard deviation, etc.)
Technically, this is only an approximate statement. You do care to add fluctuations to your maindeck's performance (because the deck does not win first place on average at tournaments. It probably only has an expected value of top 8ing of 50%, or even less if played incorrectly.)
In the sideboard, what matters is all the same statistical distributions and information, but applied to the following quantity:
max(min(60 cards in maindeck), your 1 sideboard card in question)-min(60 cards maindeck)
Because if the sideboard card is worse than the min of your 60, you don't bring it in. This means, say if a card is worth 10 units against 10% of the meta, and 0 units against 90%, while another card is 3 units against 100% of the metagame, but the deck is sitting at 6 units against the metagame, then the first card is favored.
I don't see why you would run pithing needle, since it's not a particularly matchup-polarized card, and it's almost always worse than every card in the deck.
The things people have been considering have been widely varying. The term at my college just entered "study break" so I have a bit of time to take a break before hitting the books.
It seems like it would be beneficial to repost some lists so that there is greater uniformity in the lists people play. I think that if people keep making their own adjustments without checking in, eventually this deck will devolve into D&T or merfolk or something. It's not long before someone suggests stifle, etc.
This is the list I now play:
// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [A] Tundra
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [TE] Wasteland
2 [9E] Plains (1)
1 [BD] Island (3)
// Creatures
4 [ON] Weathered Wayfarer
3 [CS] Jotun Grunt
4 [DD2] Fathom Seer
4 [UL] Mother of Runes
4 [TSP] Serra Avenger
2 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
// Spells
4 [BD] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [OV] Swords to Plowshares
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
3 [DS] AEther Vial
3 [NE] Daze
2 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 1 [FNM] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [SHM] Wheel of Sun and Moon
SB: 2 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 3 [WL] Aura of Silence
SB: 3 [WWK] Perimeter Captain
These are the nonnegotiables:
// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [A] Tundra
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [TE] Wasteland
2 [9E] Plains (1)
1 [BD] Island (3)
// Creatures
4 [ON] Weathered Wayfarer
2 [CS] Jotun Grunt
4 [DD2] Fathom Seer
4 [UL] Mother of Runes
4 [TSP] Serra Avenger
2 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
1 ??????? (grunt in the above list)
// Spells
4 [BD] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [OV] Swords to Plowshares
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
3 [DS] AEther Vial
3 [NE] Daze
2 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 1 [FNM] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [SHM] Wheel of Sun and Moon
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 [WL] Aura of Silence
SB: 5 ??????? (1 aura, 3 PC, 1 EC in the above list)
This is the list that I played at the SCG 5K LA:
// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [A] Tundra
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [TE] Wasteland
2 [9E] Plains (1)
1 [BD] Island (3)
// Creatures
4 [ON] Weathered Wayfarer
2 [CS] Jotun Grunt
4 [DD2] Fathom Seer
4 [UL] Mother of Runes
2 [ALA] Knight of the White Orchid
4 [TSP] Serra Avenger
// Spells
4 [BD] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [OV] Swords to Plowshares
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
3 [DS] AEther Vial
3 [NE] Daze
2 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [CS] Jotun Grunt
SB: 3 [10E] Aura of Silence
SB: 2 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 4 [LRW] Burrenton Forge-Tender
SB: 1 [FNM] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [SHM] Wheel of Sun and Moon
For a sideboard plan for the 3rd list (which can be used to approximate appropriate sideboarding plans for more recent lists that both account for metagame shifts and WWK being released:
Storm Combo
-4 swords
-4 mom
-1 jitte
-2 knight
+11 obvious
Affinity
-3 mom
+3 aura
Aggro Loam
-2 SP
-1 mom
+1 wheel
+1 relic
+1 grunt
Aluren
-4mom
-1 grunt
+ aura, tutor
Stax
-4mom
+1 grunt
Aura
If no magus/exalted then –some swords +ET, relic?
Bant Aggro
-1 KOTWO
+1 grunt
Thopter:
-4 swords, -1 mom
+3 aura +1 grunt +1 wheel
Landstill:
-4 swords
+3 aura +1 grunt
ITF:
-2 swords -2 mom (they have goyfs and perhaps other creatures)
+3 aura +1 grunt
Bant intuition/loam (depends on build):
-2 knight
+1 grunt +1 relic (+1 wheel somehow? But they have qasali)
Nonblue control (deadguy ,etc.)
Depends. If they have a recursion strategy, bring in yard hate, out moms/swords depending on if they have creatures. Rock is included here, if they are aggroish with discard, -1 FOW, +1 grunt
Bant survival (usually has no dazes)
-2 knight
+1 relic +1 grunt
Nassif thresh
-2 knight
+2 aura
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Burn
-2 avenger, -2 knight
+4 BFT
Boros/Zoo
-4 wayfarer -1 KOTWO
+1 grunt +4 BFT
Cephalid Breakfast:
-4 wayfarer -2 knight +1 grunt +1 wheel +1 crypt +1 relic +2 tutor
Slivers:
Nothing
Evagreen, evadepths
Nothing
D&T
-2 spell pierce (jitte is protected)
+2 aura
Dragonstompy:
-2 knight -2 grunt, -2 mom
+4 BFT (chalice yes but at least it does more than nothing.) +2 aura
Dreadstill, dreaded fish
-2 knight, perhaps -1 mom or grunt
+2-3 aura
Elves: Combo, aggro (nonsurvival)
-2 grunt
+2 tutor
Survival elves:
-2 knight
+2 E tutor
Enchantress:
-4 swords, -2 mom, perhaps keep swords if verduran enchantress shows up
+3 aura +1 grunt +2 E tutor
Painter:
-4 Aura
+3 aura +1 gruntLands:
-4 mom, -4 swords
+4 yard hates, +2 aura, +2 tutor
If they have lots of manlands, no crucible, -2 aura +2 swords
Faerie Stompy:
-1 grunt -2 mom +3 aura
Faeries:
Nothing
Fish:
Nothing
Goblins:
-2 SP -2 wayfarer
+4 BFT
Ichorid:
LEDLESS -2 SP -4 mom -4 wayfarer +10
It’s FOW vs. mom. LEDLESS I always board out FOW, LED I always keep FOW (check g1)
Intuition control UGB:
-1 or 2 swords, mom
+yard hate, aura. Kind of like ITF except aura might not be as good, and yard hate is much more important since they have loam with cycle lands, raven’s crime.
Merfolk:
Nothing
MUC: same as landstill
MWC: same as landstill
Recurring Survival (recurring nightmare): -2 knight
+1 grunt +1 relic
Pox: -1 or 2 mom, +1 or 2 aura
RG Beats: same as zoo -4 wayfarer -1 KOTWO +4 BFT +1 grunt
Reanimator: -2 swords -2 knight -4 wayfarer +4 yard hate +2 tutor +2 aura
Suicide black: nothing
Survival advantage: -2 knight +1 relic +1 grunt
Team America: nothing
Threshold: -2 knight +1 relic +1 grunt
I understand some people do not use the search engine, but please use this as your resource. I felt like I was pretty comprehensive, and besides the small question of how to project this sideboard sheet onto the new list, there really shouldn't be any problems regarding what to board in and out. Let's focus our energy on problems that haven't been solved yet.
Why is Plains#2 better than Karakas. I'm sorry, that's really a point I can't understand.
There are a couple of reasons for this actually, although with the recent rise of reanimator, your idea has its merits:
Searching double plains to avoid nonbasic hate is pretty good. I'll admit this isn't all that useful. The main benefit is avoiding POP and punishing opponents for playing PTE.
PTE is a piece of crap, but since people actually play it, we respond to what people play, not what people *should* play.
If reanimator starts to infest the format and for some reason they think iona is a better fetch than the kraken, we'll reconsider karakas. If it even returned progenitus, we'd be thinking about it.
I should also note that a significant advantage gained from diversifying the sideboard, as we have done, is you get to board out your worst cards against many matchups, rather than your worst card, your second worst card, and your 3rd worst card against few matchups.
This is to speak against those who bring sideboards like:
4 BEB
4 chill
3 hydroblast
4 relic of progenitus
The net total of Reanimator that I face is way less than the total of Blood Moon, PoP, Wasteland, and Path to Exile that I face, especially considering Iona is (should be) their backup plan anyway.
And then when you get more into the metagame of decision-making, imagine we had Wayfarer already in play. They know that Wayfarer --> Karakous is a possibility, so the obvious choice is to Reanimate something else. The ONE TIME that some noob falls for that and sticks Iona into play ("LOLOL IONA LOL NAMING WHITE!!! IS IT GG!?!?") is not going to be worth the dozen other times that you actually draw Karakous and end up wastelanded or popped or blood mooned or can't fetch something with path.
It has some marginal use against Death and Taxes and I guess Survival (although if they have enough resources to go get Iona, they probably won -- also bouncing Iona to hand doesn't set them back a whole lot since they don't lose card advantage, unlike Reanimator), but there are a lot of very good reasons to run basics.
The net total of Reanimator that I face is way less than the total of Blood Moon, PoP, Wasteland, and Path to Exile that I face, especially considering Iona is (should be) their backup plan anyway.
And then when you get more into the metagame of decision-making, imagine we had Wayfarer already in play. They know that Wayfarer --> Karakous is a possibility, so the obvious choice is to Reanimate something else. The ONE TIME that some noob falls for that and sticks Iona into play ("LOLOL IONA LOL NAMING WHITE!!! IS IT GG!?!?") is not going to be worth the dozen other times that you actually draw Karakous and end up wastelanded or popped or blood mooned or can't fetch something with path.
It has some marginal use against Death and Taxes and I guess Survival (although if they have enough resources to go get Iona, they probably won -- also bouncing Iona to hand doesn't set them back a whole lot since they don't lose card advantage, unlike Reanimator), but there are a lot of very good reasons to run basics.