[Deck] Dragon Stompy

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Originally Posted by Zirath

I'd actually like to comment that I have not had some of the issues with 3Sphere that others observe. It is by no means bad and there are definitely games I have won on it's back, but the diminishing returns from it is huge. That has been an issue at times and there have been times where I've wanted Karn (creature) to help extra spheres get in there.

I have actually been more disillusioned by other aspects of the deck. In particular, I have found Seething Song and it's ilk and Phyrexian Revoker extremely underwhelming. Many times I actually don't want really want Song or the creatures that follow it.

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While yes, my arguments are directed more towards personal experience and my provincial metas, the general observations remain the same in that Trinisphere is a less backbreaking play than it was pre-Alara/WW. Before such sets the mana curve/acceleration seen in most decks was fairly low thus a T1 3sphere could be be as strong as a T1 Moon when the opponent opens with a handful of nonbasics. Indeed, there were many games where dropping that initial 3sphere literally meant a gg from my opponents several turns later.

What I'm arguing, however, is that while 3sphere is still incredibly reliable against combo as well as slowing the tempo of control/certain aggro, its not as powerful as it once was due to not only new forms of acceleration but a change in deck design which results in a higher mana curve. Hence, 3sphere (at least to me) seems suboptimal in comparision to Lodestone Golem because: A) They fulfill the exact saming locking mechanism, B) It provides us with a beater strong enough to kill 'Goyf, C) Doesn't experience diminishing returns, and D) Unlike 3sphere it's ability stacks. Honestly, the only major issue I've found with Lodestone is that he requires a change to a more artifact-heavy build which tbh is where I'm seeing most players head regardless. I'm not protesting to using 3sphere nor do I doubt what its done for our deck, I'm just trying to help develop new avenues to make our deck more effective.

In regards to Song/Revoker your issues are by no means beyond-the-pale. NecroYawgmoth/I invested much time in testing builds with and w/o 4 Songs and/or 4 Revoker. Ultimately, it depends on your playstyle. Most DS builds (esp. my artifact version) either focus on insanely high mana curves or have very few mid-late game plans and as such require the acceleration provided by Song. Remember, acceleration like SSG/Song aren't there because they're optimal at every point in the game (like Brainstorm). They're there because you want to accelerate out specific cards as soon as possible. Removing Songs is by no means a felonious act, however it weakens your ability to implement initial pressure as well as your ability to drop bombs like Arc Slogger or Akroma, Angel of Fury. Dragon Stompy's primary strength is our ability to drop insane pressure early game, so why weaken our only strength?

As for Revoker, like a broken record I continous advise people to use him according to your meta. In some metas he can be incredibly underwhelming (esp. if aggro is more prominent) while in metas like mine which see an average of 3-5 combo players with numerous Maverick/Bant players then MD Revoker is almost a must. Ultimately, you just need to use him according to your individual needs. It is my opinion (as well as what seems to be a consensus among most DS players) that 3-4 should be somewhere in your 75. Most of us are willing to not press the issue of where he belongs so long as you have access to him somehow as he does fulfill a unique and vital role.

Forlorn Egoist

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Originally Posted by ForlornEgoist

While yes, my arguments are directed more towards personal experience and my provincial metas, the general observations remain the same in that Trinisphere is a less backbreaking play than it was pre-Alara/WW. Before such sets the mana curve/acceleration seen in most decks was fairly low thus a T1 3sphere could be be as strong as a T1 Moon when the opponent opens with a handful of nonbasics. Indeed, there were many games where dropping that initial 3sphere literally meant a gg from my opponents several turns later.

What I'm arguing, however, is that while 3sphere is still incredibly reliable against combo as well as slowing the tempo of control/certain aggro, its not as powerful as it once was due to not only new forms of acceleration but a change in deck design which results in a higher mana curve. Hence, 3sphere (at least to me) seems suboptimal in comparision to Lodestone Golem because: A) They fulfill the exact saming locking mechanism, B) It provides us with a beater strong enough to kill 'Goyf, C) Doesn't experience diminishing returns, and D) Unlike 3sphere it's ability stacks. Honestly, the only major issue I've found with Lodestone is that he requires a change to a more artifact-heavy build which tbh is where I'm seeing most players head regardless. I'm not protesting to using 3sphere nor do I doubt what its done for our deck, I'm just trying to help develop new avenues to make our deck more effective.

In regards to Song/Revoker your issues are by no means beyond-the-pale. NecroYawgmoth/I invested much time in testing builds with and w/o 4 Songs and/or 4 Revoker. Ultimately, it depends on your playstyle. Most DS builds (esp. my artifact version) either focus on insanely high mana curves or have very few mid-late game plans and as such require the acceleration provided by Song. Remember, acceleration like SSG/Song aren't there because they're optimal at every point in the game (like Brainstorm). They're there because you want to accelerate out specific cards as soon as possible. Removing Songs is by no means a felonious act, however it weakens your ability to implement initial pressure as well as your ability to drop bombs like Arc Slogger or Akroma, Angel of Fury. Dragon Stompy's primary strength is our ability to drop insane pressure early game, so why weaken our only strength?

As for Revoker, like a broken record I continous advise people to use him according to your meta. In some metas he can be incredibly underwhelming (esp. if aggro is more prominent) while in metas like mine which see an average of 3-5 combo players with numerous Maverick/Bant players then MD Revoker is almost a must. Ultimately, you just need to use him according to your individual needs. It is my opinion (as well as what seems to be a consensus among most DS players) that 3-4 should be somewhere in your 75. Most of us are willing to not press the issue of where he belongs so long as you have access to him somehow as he does fulfill a unique and vital role.

Forlorn Egoist

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I feel like the Lodestone Golem argument causes you to move towards MUD (which granted MUD with Blood Moon is a dream of mine). Thorn of Amethyst might be under serious consideration; I've definitely thought about it myself.

My issue with Song and "fatties" is that for me they have been winmore. Slogger has been under performing for me consistently and I am not excited by Akroma since I feel like her impact is underwhelming (though I haven't tried her). I have recently moved to primarily 4 drops, which are easily accessible without Song. I can (and have consistently) win enough games just by dropping a lock and folllowing it with Koth or Pit Dragon. Moltensteel has been okay, but I end up not liking how much pain he causes me at times.

I've found Revoker to be unsuccessful again Zoo, Junk, Bant, RUG, etc. He does not stop Knight or Goyf from beating down. This has consistently been an issue. DStompy (in my experience) has tons of trouble with a creature that can race with you. I have had board positions where Revokers jump in the way of Knights to keep my alive while I struggle to keep alive. I understand Revoker is powerful. I understand it can act like a lock piece, stopping an opponent. I just think that the current build I am looking at isn't working as well as I would like it to and Revoker is a card that has consistently underperformed for me.

Hello, friends. Its been quite some time since our last post. I hope each person had a merry celebration of their respective holidays and traditions this past December/New Years. Let's get back into working on Dragon Stompy!

Dark Ascension is just over the horizon. I have seen numerous cards that could potentially fit into some of my other decks (like Rock/Deadguy) however no major cards that have thus far been revealed seem to be the 'Goyf or Delver Dragon Stompy requires to bring it out of the mucks. Regardless, I'll post 3 cards that have thus far been released that may be worth discussing and play testing.

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Mondronen Shaman///Tovolar's Magehunter 3R
Creature - Human Werewolf Shaman
At the beginning of each upkeep, if no spells were cast last turn, transform Mondronen Shaman.
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Whenever an opponent casts a spell, Tovolar's Magehunter deals 2 damage to that player. At the beginning of each upkeep, if a player cast two or more spells last turn, transform Tovolar's Magehunter.
3/2------5/5


Pyrehunter Wolf 2R
Creature - Wolf
Whenever Pyreheart Wolf attacks, each creature you control can't be blocked this turn except by two or more creatures.
Undying (When this creature dies, if it has no +1/+1 counters on it, return it to the battlefield under its owner's control with a +1/+1 counter on it.)
1/1


Faithless Looting R
Sorcery
Draw two cards then discard two cards.
Flashback 2R
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@ Shaman/Magehunter:

I'm not overly fond of transform cards as I dislike having a creature which fluctuates between a relevant and irrelevant board position, however as far as the werewolf-transform creatures go this one show some promise. While I dislike the condition of his to essentially force us to not cast a spell for the turn (as nearly any opponent is always going to cast at least 1 spell a turn) you get a 5/5 for you're troubles who in the worst of circumstances will snipe an opponent for 4 damage before transforming. He probably won't recieve much consideration for me. A transforming 3/2---5/5 is unreliable and honestly if I wanted to use burn in Dragon Stompy I'd just run Pyrostatic Pillar.

@ Pyrehunter:

This may actually be a notable card to playtest for our deck. Fits right into that ever-so-delicious 2R manacurve, and has a viable effect for our deck. In my opinion this may be more viable as a mid-late game finisher as he would enable use to push through that extra 1-2 creatures of damage, and especially when fighting decks like Bant that rely on 1-2 beaters to get the job done this guy can pretty much always assure we'll punch through a creature. Unfortunately, by himself he's not an amazing creature, and as such requires either equipment on him or another 2+ creatures on our side of the field for his ability to really be abused. I've begun relying more on Batterskull to get the job done, however for decks that opt more for Jitte/Swords then this guy may show some promise for you.

@ Faithless Looting:

This is the card I'm probably most excited to playtest of the 3. I know, how exciting can cantrips really be, right? Well, cantrips (or rather the lack thereof) are one of the greatest weaknesses of our deck. Mid-late game we have no gas. After we've locked down those initial threats and emptied our hand we then enter into topdeck mode to try and draw that beater which will win us the game. If you're luck is similar to mine then you always seem to draw mana accelerants like Mox/Song/SSG in such situations while they're dropping cantrips like Brainstorm and Ponder left and right. This would be a nice solution to our drawing dilemma, not to mention it has a flashback of 2R which is more than reasonable. Albeit CotV counters it, but in my opinion if a card provides a valuable enough effect its worth the risk. I've argued it for Pyroblast/Red Elemental Blast and Pithing Needle and now I'm arguing it for this card.

Forlorn Egoist

Hello everyone, I wish a happy new year :cool:

Straight to the point: The undying guy needs another one to abuse like you said. Very conditional..like the transformer. Why not run Kargan dragonlord for evasion and Jaya Ballard for removal/sharpshooting? On top of Slogger / RPDs I mean..
Faithless looting is good but maybe not in DS. I won't reject it immediately. Seems useful when you play 1st turn moon and then you're stuck in 1-2 mana. But in case you want to play Chalice you lose a 1 mana spell. Plus it's sorcery.

Which leads me to my brand new experiment. 3 Bottled Cloister and no hellbent. You can get at 4 mana pretty easily. Once you get, you're often out of ammo. You sometimes struggle to keep hellbent and can't search/draw more than 1 card per round. If your locks and so-called early pressure fail, then you're on your knees begging Lady Luck.

Drew Levin wrote about an idea concerning Ensnaring Bridge and Koth in DS. Bridge and Bottle are good when paired. Goblin Assault is good with Jitte, and again, both are good with Bridge, since you can pump those gobbos after they pass the bridge. To cut a long story short, I'm trying this:

4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
9 Mountain

4 Chrome Mox

4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Magus of the Moon
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage OR 2 Koth of the Hammer
2 Siege-Gang Commander, OR 2 Rakdos Pit Dragon, OR 2 Akroma, Angel of Fury (or split)

3 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Seething Song
3 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Goblin Assault
3 Bottled Cloister
4 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Chaos Warp

SB:
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1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Blood Moon
4 Trinisphere
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Ratchet Bomb
1 Words of War

A more controlish version that could prove funny of course. I prefer S-G Commander in this list, not Slogger (sob!)
After a quick test, Bottled Cloister could be the droids we are looking for.

Oh, and:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...k3X2c&hl=en_US

Not 100% sure if this guy's correct, I may re-check the tables (if I get a good degree in Statistics on the next exam).

PS: Somebody please remind me how to write the cards' names so that the reader can immediately see their pictures (moving the cursor on the name). Thank you.

In regards to Faithless Looting I honestly don't think it'll fit in DS, however of the cards revealed thus far I believe it to be the most promising. I still plan to playtest it, but I doubt I'll receive many positive results.

Card tags is [ cards ] Text [ / cards ] minus the spaces. Just put the first tag at the beginning of the decklist and the 2nd at the end of the decklist.

I must admit your build is quite intruging. The Bottled Cloister + Ensnaring Bridge seems like it'd be great in my aggro-heavy meta, although the rest of the deck seems a tad too control for my taste. I may still test some of its elements, however, and maybe alter a few card choices.

Forlorn Egoist

Played some more games lately. I have a question about Ensnaring Bridge and Instigator Gang // Wildblood Pack. And I'm sure you have guessed what I'm about to ask.

Can the rest of our small guys attack and get the pumping +1/+0 or the +3/+0?
My problem is that Gang reads: "Attacking creatures you control get +1/+0." In contradiction with, lets say Exalted, which reads: "Whenever a creature you control attacks alone..."

"Whenever, When, At" mean triggered ability. So Exalted works with Bridge. However I'm not dead sure about Gang.
I found this: http://www.mtgdeckbuilder.net/forums...x?TopicID=2155
but I'd like to double-check that it works. I don't have time to research this thing more, if someone knows, please tell me.

Changes to my previous list: I maxed the Bottled Cloisters to 4, Seething Songs also became 4 (so I can play Cloister, "twin locks", or Chalice @ 2 as fast as I can). Took out the Jittes and the Siege-gang Commanders, and added 4 Instigator Gangs.

More thoughts / conclusions:

The deck must be able to function without combos. Cloister is good even without bridge. It can save your ass when all you produce is four colorless mana -after that 1st turn chalice- and you need red fast. It practically doubles/triples... the incoming threats once resolved. It makes you immune to discard. And it works well with bridge on top of that. A one turn investment that start repaying with card advantage the turn after. I really love it.

While I love Arc-Slogger, I don't think it will work well with Bottled Cloister. The card drawing can reduce the damage it will deal (ups, only 39 cards left) and it could lead to library death. Siege Gang-Commander needs Goblin Assault to push through fast, and as I said, I don't want something in my deck to be able to work only as a combo. I could be wrong about Commander, but for now he is out. I'm considered about Engineered Plague too, and so I don't want to over-specialise in Goblins.

While bridge safeguards you from any huge attacker, it doesn't stop you from attacking. You can keep one or two cards in hand. All your guys pass through. I really hope I'm correct about the Gang thing. If yes, these 2/x weenies, or Goblin token armies can really push through opponent defences helped by transformed Gang or Jaya, while the bridge protects you. And a bunch of 5/2's or 4/1's is troublesome, even without bridge. Those guys can defeat Batterskulls.

Of course things like Firespout are catastrophic, but Cloisters and Goblin Assaults help you recover. A well placed Firespout could kill the RPDs and 1/2 of the times Gathan Raiders as well.

Gang is heavy, with or without bridge, with or without weenies to pump.

If I wanted to add something more right now, that would be more pushing power / unblockability / direct damage that could work with bridge. I'm satisfied about speed, locks, and card drawing. But I don't know what to take out. Maybe Jaya, but she is good when you draw like mad, and with Cloisters and songs you can even reach 7 mana to use the third ability.

An idea that just came to me is 1-2 Molten-Tail Masticore , which could open the way too for your attackers -and deal direct artifact damage to a player- even if it's not attacking. With hellbent out you can keep two cards in hand and do the trick. The upkeep discard can feed its second ability, if you discard creatures. With 2x Jaya out, the red-spell count for Moxes is 22. [With her in your 60, that's 24.]

I know I test only a little, so don't take my words too seriously. But I don't want to give a straight list only. I want to give some justification too. So far this works for me.

I am considering building Dragon Stompy again after looking at some of the DTB, former DTB (mainly U/R Delver) and Burn which has come on over the last couple of months.

I believe with the lack of hard counters, spot removal and very low mana curves (3 at most) in these tempo based decks allows both Trinisphere and Chalice of the Void to get max value. I will include my list below and I have a couple questions regarding a couple of creatures in the deck.

//Dragon Stompy\\

//Creatures// [21]

4x Flametongue Kavu
4xMagus of the Moon
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Lodestone Golem
3x Moltensteel Dragon
2x Instigator Gang/Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs/Falkenrath Marauders

//Spells// [19]

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Chrome Mox
4x Seething Song
3x Blood Moon
3x Trinisphere
2x Batterskull

//Land// [19]

4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
11xMountain

//SIDEBOARD//

3x Ratchet Bomb/Powder Keg
3x Phyrexian Revoker
3x Pyroblast
3x Volcanic Fallout
3x Tomod's Crypt

I am trying to figure out which one of these creatures will give maximum value

First - Instigator Gang - Even without being flipped it's a decent size and helps pump other attacking creatures and hopefully once the lock is in place flipping him over to Wildblood Pack shouldn't take long and once flipped should end things in fine fashion.

Second - Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs - Bigger body which helps dodge Bolts and keeps smaller attackers at bay plus the extra free 3/3 blocker will often come in handy.

Third - Falkenrath Marauders - My least favorite choice but the haste and flying are both relevant and can grow without the additional input of mana.

My Final questions is Ratchet Bomb vs. Powder Keg, is Ratchet Bomb ability to hit enchantments worth running it over Powder Keg as they both gain counters at the same speed.

Thanks in advance!

My werewolves list in a dragon stompy shell....just an idea let me know what you think. Side is made against aggro and graveyard based decks. Sword of light and shadow for card advantage and pro swords to plowshares.


11 Mountain
3 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb


4 chalice of the void
4 trinisphere
4 chrome mox
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Mondronen Shaman
4 Hanweir Watchkeep
3 Sword of Light and Shadow
4 Blood Moon
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Taurean Mauler
3 kruin outlaw

Sideboard:
4 Pyroblast
4 Steam blast
4 tormod's crypt
3 ratchet bomb

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lambert101

My werewolves list in a dragon stompy shell....just an idea let me know what you think. Side is made against aggro and graveyard based decks. Sword of light and shadow for card advantage and pro swords to plowshares.

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My only problem with a high density of flip cards is that if you do not get the lock down your opponent can change their play style and keep you off the hot sauce.

I have also had a thought that Steel Hellkite is a way better choice then Moltensteel Dragon as it helps us with clearing out offending permanents pre-board, starts with a bigger body, has a more efficient pump and plays nice with Lodestone Golem.

Despite very little tournament success in recent years, I'm taking this deck to GP Indy on Saturday. The meta seems really weak to Chalice at 1 and mana bases seem greedy as ever. Here's my list if you guys want to make any final comments. I know some people are leaning towards artifact or werewolf builds, but the old Hellbent build has been most reliable so I'm sticking with it.

10 Mountain
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb

4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Taurean Mauler
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Lord of Shatterskull Pass

4 Chrome Mox
4 Seething Song
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Blood Moon
3 Trinisphere

SB
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
4 Faerie Macabre
2 Ratchet Bomb
4 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Manic Vandal

Some notes on choices:
Taurean Mauler isn't totally standard, but if that guy shows up in the early game you can just ride him to victory. No 5 Drops means I can mostly play two 3 drops off of a turn 2 Seething Song, which is the tempo you actually want to get early Hellbent. Lord of Shatterskull Pass has over performed in testing and trumps Batterskull in the late game. One sided Inferno is pretty sick against the format.

The sideboard is not closely tested, but it's pretty flexible to accommodate for the wide open meta of a GP.
Basic sideboard plan is:
Revokers, Jitte, and Vandals come in against Maverick
Jaya, Ratched Bomb, and Jitte come in against RUG Delver
Jaya against UW Stoneforge

Please feel free to comment on my list and wish me luck in reviving this archetype.

I like your reasoning for playing thos deck. But I dislike the full sets format it has. I'd cut one mauler and a couple of masters in favour of jitte and sword of fire and ice.
On the side, I think that boil and anarchy are very great and needed cards.

@1337erhosen: I love this deck and when I played the Hellbent version I included Tauren Mauler as a 3 of and loved it. I believe that "Prison" style decks are very strong in this meta and really punish the tempo decks which have started to drop FoW. That really limits their ability to interact with us much beyond a successful turn 1-2.

Is Ratchet Bomb better then Powder Keg? They seem to be functionally the same. I am also unsure what GY hate I should be playing, right now I have Tomod Crypt, Ravenous Trap and Leyline of the Void Any other I should be considering?

Powder Keg is superior in a metagame that expects Affinity...it rapes their lands right alongside their zero cost dudes. Ratchet Bomb, on the other hand, deals with enchantments and PW's (if given long enough.) I would say it's a metagame call.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wereodile

Is Ratchet Bomb better then Powder Keg

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In my opinion, yes. The main weakness of RB is that it forces you to tap for charge counters, meaning if you opt to add a counter an opponent can then destroy the RB before you have a chance to pop it. Beyond Krosan Grip (which hardly sees play in the current tempo meta) there are very few cards we have to watch out that can punish this limitation of RB. In exchange you gain the ability to nix Enchantments which, in my opinion, is a well-worth trade. The only major benefit to Keg is that it hits Artifact lands which, considering the lack of Affinity in th vast majority of metas, isn't all that relevant.

As far as GY hate is concerned I've usually found Tormod's Crypt to be all thats really required.

Forlorn Egoist

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ForlornEgoist

In my opinion, yes. The main weakness of RB is that it forces you to tap for charge counters, meaning if you opt to add a counter an opponent can then destroy the RB before you have a chance to pop it. Beyond Krosan Grip (which hardly sees play in the current tempo meta) there are very few cards we have to watch out that can punish this limitation of RB. In exchange you gain the ability to nix Enchantments which, in my opinion, is a well-worth trade. The only major benefit to Keg is that it hits Artifact lands which, considering the lack of Affinity in th vast majority of metas, isn't all that relevant.

As far as GY hate is concerned I've usually found Tormod's Crypt to be all thats really required.

Forlorn Egoist

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TY That was great! (you too Mr.Safety) My only hesitation with the GY hate was the zero casting cost on Tomods in case a Chalice needs to go down at zero.

Red Chalice decks are tricky to work grave hate into, honestly. The other good hate options are mostly at :1: (Grafdigger's Cage, Relic of Progenitus, I'll mention Nihil Spellbomb but it's usually worse than Tormod's Crypt in a non-black deck)

I've been testing out Ravenous Trap lately...and I've been pretty happy with it (not in Dragon Stompy specifically, just in general as a free grave-hate alternative to TCrypt.) It takes care of Dredge just fine (and it's free but a converted cost of 4, dodging your Chalices nicely. Trinisphere is still an issue though...) and I've found that it has application against storm decks using Past in Flames as well.

Your last option seems to be Bojuka Bog. There are a slew of non-red, non-artifact options, but most aren'te even worth mentioning.

In a nutshell, it depends on if you ever sideboard out your Trinispheres. If you do, bring in Ravenous Trap and/or Tormod's Crypt. I'm guessing the answer is no...which makes me think that Tormod's Crypt is the best option. How often do you put Chalice @0?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

Red Chalice decks are tricky to work grave hate into

I've been testing out Ravenous Trap lately...and I've been pretty happy with it (not in Dragon Stompy specifically, just in general as a free grave-hate alternative to TCrypt.) It takes care of Dredge just fine (and it's free but a converted cost of 4, dodging your Chalices nicely. Trinisphere is still an issue though...) and I've found that it has application against storm decks using Past in Flames as well.

In a nutshell, it depends on if you ever sideboard out your Trinispheres. If you do, bring in Ravenous Trap and/or Tormod's Crypt. I'm guessing the answer is no...which makes me think that Tormod's Crypt is the best option. How often do you put Chalice @0?

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Not a lot of reason to put the chalice @0 just more of a hypothetical situation.

My only concern with Trap was that decks like Reanimator (and Dredge to some extent) can just play around the Trap and really nullifies it. I am definitely looking for an option which removes the entire GY as opposed to Faerie Macabre like effects.

Tomods Crypt it is then!

Again thanks for your input!

One last thought: I definately like Crypt better than Leyline of the Void. Leyline will increase your mulligan rate (which is already kinda high with stompy decks as-is) and if you have a solid opener with Ancient Tomb/Chalice/Trini, you can still have great odds against the graveyard decks, buying you time to draw into your Crypts. Dredge doesn't play many spells, but they usually will need to play some (Cabal Therapy, Careful Study, Dread Return) Occasionally they'll just dredge, rip some Narcos, and reanimate a FKZ or other big threat FTW before you get anything online. The LED versions are the ones that are nigh-too-fast for you to hate out, but I haven't heard about LED Drege in a while. Does it get play in your area?

So I've skimmed the thread, and I'm wondering what can be done to push this deck to competitiveness. The design philosophy so far, of dropping a lock, slowing em down, and dropping a bomb is a good one. It seems like the deck really only gets in trouble when the opponent either stops your initial few plays and you run out of gas (Merfolk countering your Trinishpere and Chalice) or where you're overwhelmed before you can shut the door (Affinity).

Seems like the deck need to keep it's foot on the gas and have a way to address a losing board state. That could be mass wipe (Powder Keg and Ratchet Bomb keep coming up) or it could be an oops-I-win condition that makes the board irrelevant.

What solves these problems in color? As to the first problem, I wonder if Faithless Looting might be a possibility. It replaces the two worst cards in your hand plus the top two cards in your library, twice. The flashback cost is easy to manage off of Cities and Tombs. It doesn’t interact very well with Chalice at 1, sadly, which seems like the biggest strike against it. Burning Inquiry and Desperate Ravings seem worse. Control of the Court and Goblin Lore seem too unpredictable. Since Red seems like it has poor options here, I get why people are going to things like Bottled Cloister. But Cloister is slow and doesn’t do anything in the meantime.

This is heretical, but bear with me. What if you dipped into Black? This makes Dark Confidant, Graveborn Muse, and Sarkhan the Mad available. All of these are decent draw engines that have alternative uses if you’re not out of gas, and only require a single black mana to cast. Confidant might not be the best pick here, since he’s so painful in a deck with high casting costs, but his power can’t be denied. The other two are realistic two or three drops given all of the Cities and Tombs you run.

Consider something like this list as a 75 card pool, some of which would be in the SB:


Lock Pieces (16) (core of the deck)
4 Trinisphere
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void

Acceleration (15)
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Chrome Mox

Beatz (10) (weighted towards Dragons for the “oops I win” with Sarkhan)
4 Garthan Raiders
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
2 Moltensteel Dragon

Card Advantage (5)
3 Graveborn Muse (Seems better than Confidant in this deck)
2 Sarkhan the Mad (card engine or “oops I win” with dragons)

Removal (16)
3 Powder Keg
3 Flametongue Kavu
4 Faerie Macabre // Grafdigger’s Cage (yard hate, season to meta. Cage is better against Prog)
3 Shattering Spree
3 Stingscourger (deals with Emrakul)

Lands (15)
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Arid Mesa / Wooded Foothills / Scalding Tarn
4 Swamp
3 Mountain


The concept here is to retain the same playstyle as old school Dragon Stompy, but add some additional reach without sacrificing quality. Because you want to find a swamp and a mountain early, it’s got more land that other builds. However, the change in draw quality from adding 2 lands is (maybe?) overcome by adding a draw engine to the deck.

I’ve tried to come up with mana base that works with the small black splash and is still resilient to Wasteland. The problem (as you all know) is that dropping a Moon effect shuts off fetches and dual lands. If you land a Simian+Tomb into first turn Magus, now you cannot get black off of non-basics. But, here’s the thing. If you live the dream this way, you’re probably winning pretty hard already. One of two things is gonna happen. Either your opponent is gonna destroy the Moon effect, giving you a window to collect your black, or they will play through it, but slowly, giving you time to naturally draw into a swamp. Remember, the black cards in this deck are NOT early game plays. They are for gassing up or winning out of nowhere in the late game.

The other question is whether the draw engines work well or badly with Hellbent. Ideally, Garthan Raiders and Chrome Mox give you a way to dump your hand if you really want to. Late game, with all the mana this deck deploys, I would imagine you can cast cards as you draw them. Having too many options is a good thing. On the other hand, getting stuck with a black card in your hand and not being able to activate Rakdos could really suck.

You are, of course, vulnerable to Stifle in this build, but not really wasteland.

What do you think?

I think the strength in this deck is the redundancy and the more you can trim the deck down to it's bare bones (Lock & Beats) the better the chance we have of implementing our plan which is to punish the low CMC of the current meta and punch some face and I do not think going into a separate color is the best option imho .

I can see where you are coming from though, sometimes you nail the lock and then you can't draw any gas and give your opponent a chance to "break" the lock. My suggestion is to go heavy on planeswalkers as a way to ensure you always applying some sort of pressure also not the easiest permanent type to deal with. Let's see who we have here...

Chandra Ablaze - Pricey but not really an issue with this deck, easily the best Chandra but the other two have their merits as well.

Koth of the Hammer - This is who I would have to go with, all three abilities are relevant the first two can also help ramp up into more lock pieces or threats.

Karn Liberated - Bit of a stretch but also helps strengthen the prison plan

Just a couple of thoughts, keep brewing!