[Deck] Painter-Stone

So, Search for Azcanta has made me pick the deck up again. Search is no Top, but its still real fuckin' good. I played around with lists that people have posted here, added some tutors back in (Intuition and Transmute), played a few leagues, remembered why I hate the tutors (they don't do anything), and went back to midrange control.

Anyway, I just 5-0ed a league with this list. Don't ask me about the lightning greaves, 'cause I don't know. I put it in to test, only drew it once off of Chandra when it wasn't remotely relevant. Probably it should be a third Search. I only dropped one game in the league (to BR reanimator) everything else was 2-0. The sideboard is a mess, its a weird aglomeration of the port of my SB which was current before the top ban and stuff I pulled out of this thread.

I played:
D&T (2-0)
Grixis Delver (2-0)
BR Reanimator (2-1)
Shitty Miracles with no Top (2-0)
Grixis Delver (2-0)

List:

4 Scalding Tarn
3 Ancient Tomb
3 Seat of the Synod
2 Great Furnace
2 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Vault of Whispers
1 Inventor's Fair
1 Island
1 Mountain

4 Goblin Welder
4 Painter's Servant
2 Baleful Strix

4 Grindstone
3 Mox Opal
2 Smuggler's Copter
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Ensnaring Bridge

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Pyroblast
2 Search for Azcanta

3 Tezzeret Agent of Brolas
2 Saheeli Rai

SIDEBOARD:

1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Spellskite
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Ghirapur Aether Grid
1 Chandra Torch of Defiance
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Flusterstorm
2 Bloodmoon


Like I said, the sideboard is a mess. Maindeck also needs some tweaking, especially on the one-ofs. I'd love to figure out how to get Hope of Ghirapur back in the list. There's a good argument to be made for Tormod's Crypt over Nihil Spellbomb, but I wanted something I could recur with Welder for value in grindy games. I still really don't know about the Boots. In theory a Welder with pants on is the stone nuts, I have no idea about the practicality of it.

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Originally Posted by Hisa

So, Search for Azcanta has made me pick the deck up again. Search is no Top, but its still real fuckin' good. I played around with lists that people have posted here, added some tutors back in (Intuition and Transmute), played a few leagues, remembered why I hate the tutors (they don't do anything), and went back to midrange control.

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This card is amazing, if you aren't playing it in U versions of painter you're very much doing something wrong.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hisa

So, Search for Azcanta has made me pick the deck up again. Search is no Top, but its still real fuckin' good. I played around with lists that people have posted here, added some tutors back in (Intuition and Transmute), played a few leagues, remembered why I hate the tutors (they don't do anything), and went back to midrange control.

Anyway, I just 5-0ed a league with this list. Don't ask me about the lightning greaves, 'cause I don't know. I put it in to test, only drew it once off of Chandra when it wasn't remotely relevant. Probably it should be a third Search. I only dropped one game in the league (to BR reanimator) everything else was 2-0. The sideboard is a mess, its a weird aglomeration of the port of my SB which was current before the top ban and stuff I pulled out of this thread.

I played:
D&T (2-0)
Grixis Delver (2-0)
BR Reanimator (2-1)
Shitty Miracles with no Top (2-0)
Grixis Delver (2-0)

List:

4 Scalding Tarn
3 Ancient Tomb
3 Seat of the Synod
2 Great Furnace
2 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Vault of Whispers
1 Inventor's Fair
1 Island
1 Mountain

4 Goblin Welder
4 Painter's Servant
2 Baleful Strix

4 Grindstone
3 Mox Opal
2 Smuggler's Copter
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Ensnaring Bridge

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Pyroblast
2 Search for Azcanta

3 Tezzeret Agent of Brolas
2 Saheeli Rai

SIDEBOARD:

1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Spellskite
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Ghirapur Aether Grid
1 Chandra Torch of Defiance
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Flusterstorm
2 Bloodmoon


Like I said, the sideboard is a mess. Maindeck also needs some tweaking, especially on the one-ofs. I'd love to figure out how to get Hope of Ghirapur back in the list. There's a good argument to be made for Tormod's Crypt over Nihil Spellbomb, but I wanted something I could recur with Welder for value in grindy games. I still really don't know about the Boots. In theory a Welder with pants on is the stone nuts, I have no idea about the practicality of it.

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Interesting list. I've played most of these cards at some time, minus some particularly interesting choices. Speaking of which, what's up with Saheeli Rai? It seems like most of the other playable 3 drop planeswalkers would be better there, ie. Dack Fayden or Daretti. What attracts you to that card? Also, do you feel like you regularly have a creature to crew the smuggler's copters with only 10 total creatures? How good have they been? They do help flip Search for Azcanta, but that's why it would seem that dack would also be better. How are the bad MU's with this list such as burn or U/R delver?
Anyway, it's somewhat similar to what I'm playing now as well so I am definitely interested. Thanks for the list. And I agree, Search for Azcanta is the real deal and fits particularly well with goblin welders.

Also, I totally understand people's disdain for cards like transmute artifact and intuition. Both cards feel super clunky. However, they do lend themselves to some play lines that just don't exist without them (particularly involving welder). Also, when you are playing certain one-of cards like ensnaring bridge (or you want to switch into leyline/helm combo) those cards are sometimes a necessary evil.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Quote:

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Originally Posted by drude1

Interesting list. I've played most of these cards at some time, minus some particularly interesting choices. Speaking of which, what's up with Saheeli Rai? It seems like most of the other playable 3 drop planeswalkers would be better there, ie. Dack Fayden or Daretti. What attracts you to that card? Also, do you feel like you regularly have a creature to crew the smuggler's copters with only 10 total creatures? How good have they been? They do help flip Search for Azcanta, but that's why it would seem that dack would also be better. How are the bad MU's with this list such as burn or U/R delver?
Anyway, it's somewhat similar to what I'm playing now as well so I am definitely interested. Thanks for the list. And I agree, Search for Azcanta is the real deal and fits particularly well with goblin welders.

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So this is pretty similar to a list I was doing well with (there's a bunch of write up I did around page 29 of this thread) before the top ban. My basic take on the deck is that it functions way better as a planeswalker control deck with a combo in it (sort of how Twin used to function in Modern) than as a hard combo deck.

I changed Dack for Saheeli Rai and haven't looked back. Dack, helps you dig, but isn't threatening against 90% of the field. You ultimate Dack and... Nothing happens. Saheeli digs, can get value with her -2 and wins the game with her Ultimate. She's less good at digging that Dack, and she has less Welder synergy, but did much more of what I was hoping for. I like Daretti, but he's super hard on the mana base and the blue card count for FoW is already super low.

Copter is one of the best cards in the deck, no exaggeration. It almost always trades with at least one card (a counterspell or a delver) and if you get to attack or block with it you feel so far ahead. It turns your 1 power bros into a clock, and often puts opponents in a very reasonable Tezz range. It attacks Jace. Unfortunately, with only ten creatures, I'm not sure you can run more than two.

I haven't found UR Delver to be a bad MU for the deck. I don't have my playtest notes in front of me, but IIRC the worst Delver variant is Canadian. I have found the bad MUs to be t1/t2 combo decks -- Belcher, Oops, Turbo Depths, TES (but not ANT), etc.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hisa

So this is pretty similar to a list I was doing well with (there's a bunch of write up I did around page 29 of this thread) before the top ban. My basic take on the deck is that it functions way better as a planeswalker control deck with a combo in it (sort of how Twin used to function in Modern) than as a hard combo deck.

I changed Dack for Saheeli Rai and haven't looked back. Dack, helps you dig, but isn't threatening against 90% of the field. You ultimate Dack and... Nothing happens. Saheeli digs, can get value with her -2 and wins the game with her Ultimate. She's less good at digging that Dack, and she has less Welder synergy, but did much more of what I was hoping for. I like Daretti, but he's super hard on the mana base and the blue card count for FoW is already super low.

Copter is one of the best cards in the deck, no exaggeration. It almost always trades with at least one card (a counterspell or a delver) and if you get to attack or block with it you feel so far ahead. It turns your 1 power bros into a clock, and often puts opponents in a very reasonable Tezz range. It attacks Jace. Unfortunately, with only ten creatures, I'm not sure you can run more than two.

I haven't found UR Delver to be a bad MU for the deck. I don't have my playtest notes in front of me, but IIRC the worst Delver variant is Canadian. I have found the bad MUs to be t1/t2 combo decks -- Belcher, Oops, Turbo Depths, TES (but not ANT), etc.

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how about a stream next time you play online?

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Originally Posted by GradStudent

how about a stream next time you play online?

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I actually just built a new machine and am not set up for it at the moment. That being said, I'll try and get it together in the next week or two and stream some leagues.

cool, leave your twitch name and ill add you

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hisa

So this is pretty similar to a list I was doing well with (there's a bunch of write up I did around page 29 of this thread) before the top ban. My basic take on the deck is that it functions way better as a planeswalker control deck with a combo in it (sort of how Twin used to function in Modern) than as a hard combo deck.

I changed Dack for Saheeli Rai and haven't looked back. Dack, helps you dig, but isn't threatening against 90% of the field. You ultimate Dack and... Nothing happens. Saheeli digs, can get value with her -2 and wins the game with her Ultimate. She's less good at digging that Dack, and she has less Welder synergy, but did much more of what I was hoping for. I like Daretti, but he's super hard on the mana base and the blue card count for FoW is already super low.

Copter is one of the best cards in the deck, no exaggeration. It almost always trades with at least one card (a counterspell or a delver) and if you get to attack or block with it you feel so far ahead. It turns your 1 power bros into a clock, and often puts opponents in a very reasonable Tezz range. It attacks Jace. Unfortunately, with only ten creatures, I'm not sure you can run more than two.

I haven't found UR Delver to be a bad MU for the deck. I don't have my playtest notes in front of me, but IIRC the worst Delver variant is Canadian. I have found the bad MUs to be t1/t2 combo decks -- Belcher, Oops, Turbo Depths, TES (but not ANT), etc.

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I guess I will just have to trust that Saheeli is better, although I don't know that I agree that dack's ultimate doesn't do anything. And if you are you using the argument that Saheeli just wins the game with her ultimate, why not just play Jace? The burn based MU's still seem really bad, but I think the fast combo decks could more easily be addressed with a few tweaks to the sideboard. I will have to play with smuggler's copter a little more. I did like it when I was playing with it previously. Just had difficulty turning it on sometimes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GradStudent

cool, leave your twitch name and ill add you

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When you can Hisa tell us i will follow you too.

I really want a competitive list, actually i am testing mono blue on MTGO.

But i love grixis painter.

Ok, so I've been playing with a list that is basically the love child of Hisa's list and my previous list and it is looking like this:


// Lands
1 [MR] Great Furnace
3 [TE] Ancient Tomb
1 [UNH] Island
2 [B] Volcanic Island
1 [UNH] Swamp
1 [B] Underground Sea
3 [MR] Seat of the Synod
1 [B] Badlands
3 [KTK] Polluted Delta
3 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
1 [UNH] Mountain
1 [KLD] Inventors' Fair

// Creatures
4 [SHM] Painter's Servant
4 [UL] Goblin Welder
2 [C16] Baleful Strix

// Spells
4 [TE] Grindstone
3 [IA] Pyroblast
2 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge
2 [SOM] Mox Opal
4 [C15] Brainstorm
2 [MBS] Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [AQ] Transmute Artifact
1 [CN2] Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast
1 [MR] Pyrite Spellbomb
2 [XLN] Search for Azcanta/Azcanta, the Sunken Ruin
2 [KLD] Smuggler's Copter

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SOM] Ratchet Bomb
SB: 3 [CH] Blood Moon
SB: 1 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 4 [M11] Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 [AL] Helm of Obedience
SB: 2 [C15] Fiery Confluence
SB: 2 [EMN] Collective Brutality
SB: 1 [KLD] Chandra, Torch of Defiance

I went back to two transmute in the board after getting blown out a couple times by eldrazi. You REALLY NEED the bridge in that MU. Otherwise, here are my thoughts...

a. smuggler's copters are actually the nut. They have been so incredibly good. They attack very well, block very well, can't get eaten out of the graveyard by deathrite and turning one into a 5/5 with tezz is stone cold nuts. I have occasionally had a little trouble turning it on but now having 14 cards main that do so, it hasn't been bad. Very strong edition.

b. inventor's fair has also been surprisingly good. It's pretty slow, but again in the late game it can get you exactly what you need to close out a game. Definitely worth the one slot.

c. as we've all discussed, search for azcanta is obviously good and a second one is even better. Likely wouldn't play 3 though.

d. deck actually feels like it need more answers to creatures, particularly deathrite. I am playing 1 pyrite spellbomb which I really like but I could see playing either another one of those, another ensnaring bridge or something to keep my life total up.

e. Playing revoker as another one of main mostly for the fast combo MU's and because it's another creature to turn on the copters. It's been good but obviously not relevant in every MU.

f. I played with dack a little while (didn't try saheeli) but had a really hard time keeping him alive. Both he and saheeli don't protect themselves very well and they just always died after 1-2 activations. At least tezz can make a 5/5 to act as a wall against attackers. I've also been playing Daretti main and really like him. I really have not had any significant mana issues and he's actually easier to cast under a blood moon than tezz (obviously). He does a decent job of protecting himself and is great creature/artifact removal. Again, I really think a second bridge is a good idea. I may cut either the revoker or one FoW to make room.

g. Hisa, I again know what you mean with the transmutes, but they just feel so necessary. They actually have the same feel as enlightened tutor in the r/w list. You feel like you are neutering yourself a little by playing it but you really need the tutor effect. Not sure how to get around this.

Thanks again for putting up your list. It's helped be get rid of some of the chaff in mine.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by drude1

I guess I will just have to trust that Saheeli is better, although I don't know that I agree that dack's ultimate doesn't do anything. And if you are you using the argument that Saheeli just wins the game with her ultimate, why not just play Jace? The burn based MU's still seem really bad, but I think the fast combo decks could more easily be addressed with a few tweaks to the sideboard. I will have to play with smuggler's copter a little more. I did like it when I was playing with it previously. Just had difficulty turning it on sometimes.

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The problem I have with both Jace (in addition to his CMC) and Daretti is the stress they put on the mana. UU is a big part of the reason I don't like transmutes and whir. Daretti makes me want to run another black source and Vault of Whispers is already the worst land in the deck. Getting either of those color combinations on t2 or t3 (or even t4 or t5) can really hamstring your mana development and leave you in a bad place in the following turns.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by drude1

Ok, so I've been playing with a list that is basically the love child of Hisa's list and my previous list and it is looking like this:


// Lands
1 [MR] Great Furnace
3 [TE] Ancient Tomb
1 [UNH] Island
2 [B] Volcanic Island
1 [UNH] Swamp
1 [B] Underground Sea
3 [MR] Seat of the Synod
1 [B] Badlands
3 [KTK] Polluted Delta
3 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
1 [UNH] Mountain
1 [KLD] Inventors' Fair

// Creatures
4 [SHM] Painter's Servant
4 [UL] Goblin Welder
2 [C16] Baleful Strix

// Spells
4 [TE] Grindstone
3 [IA] Pyroblast
2 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge
2 [SOM] Mox Opal
4 [C15] Brainstorm
2 [MBS] Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [AQ] Transmute Artifact
1 [CN2] Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast
1 [MR] Pyrite Spellbomb
2 [XLN] Search for Azcanta/Azcanta, the Sunken Ruin
2 [KLD] Smuggler's Copter

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SOM] Ratchet Bomb
SB: 3 [CH] Blood Moon
SB: 1 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 4 [M11] Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 [AL] Helm of Obedience
SB: 2 [C15] Fiery Confluence
SB: 2 [EMN] Collective Brutality
SB: 1 [KLD] Chandra, Torch of Defiance

I went back to two transmute in the board after getting blown out a couple times by eldrazi. You REALLY NEED the bridge in that MU. Otherwise, here are my thoughts...

a. smuggler's copters are actually the nut. They have been so incredibly good. They attack very well, block very well, can't get eaten out of the graveyard by deathrite and turning one into a 5/5 with tezz is stone cold nuts. I have occasionally had a little trouble turning it on but now having 14 cards main that do so, it hasn't been bad. Very strong edition.

b. inventor's fair has also been surprisingly good. It's pretty slow, but again in the late game it can get you exactly what you need to close out a game. Definitely worth the one slot.

c. as we've all discussed, search for azcanta is obviously good and a second one is even better. Likely wouldn't play 3 though.

d. deck actually feels like it need more answers to creatures, particularly deathrite. I am playing 1 pyrite spellbomb which I really like but I could see playing either another one of those, another ensnaring bridge or something to keep my life total up.

e. Playing revoker as another one of main mostly for the fast combo MU's and because it's another creature to turn on the copters. It's been good but obviously not relevant in every MU.

f. I played with dack a little while (didn't try saheeli) but had a really hard time keeping him alive. Both he and saheeli don't protect themselves very well and they just always died after 1-2 activations. At least tezz can make a 5/5 to act as a wall against attackers. I've also been playing Daretti main and really like him. I really have not had any significant mana issues and he's actually easier to cast under a blood moon than tezz (obviously). He does a decent job of protecting himself and is great creature/artifact removal. Again, I really think a second bridge is a good idea. I may cut either the revoker or one FoW to make room.

g. Hisa, I again know what you mean with the transmutes, but they just feel so necessary. They actually have the same feel as enlightened tutor in the r/w list. You feel like you are neutering yourself a little by playing it but you really need the tutor effect. Not sure how to get around this.

Thanks again for putting up your list. It's helped be get rid of some of the chaff in mine.

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I'm glad you're having so much success!

I haven't played against Eldrazi since the top ban. That being said between having a combo they don't really interact with and painter shutting off 40% of their mana base and baleful strix (with welder) and the blood moons in the board I have found the Eldrazi matchup to be incredibly favorable. It's definitely possible to lose, especially if they are on the play and get a chalice draw, but it feels like a 65%+ matchup. All of your cards interact so well with them.

I feel like seventeen blue cards for FoW is the absolute minimum. You're at 16. Have you noticed any problems? I would also be sorely tempted to swap a land for a third Mox Opal in your list.

I am 100% going to swap EE for Ratchet Bomb, it seems infinitely better with Welder. I'm not sure if I like Pyrite Spellbomb over Nihil Spellbomb main deck. They do approximately the same thing against DRS, and both have broader applications vs the field (nihil vs combo and decks with reshuffle fatties and pyrite vs fair decks). Maybe the solution is to run both.

My twitch is https://www.twitch.tv/bhisa . I haven't streamed in a while, and I'm getting reset up now. Hopefully sometime this week or next.

congrats dude.
Also
looks like Gerry Thompson is a fan of the list lol
https://twitter.com/G3RRYT/status/965013295425048577

I was playing ANT online yesterday and ran into someone playing the Grixis build of this deck. Seems like a neat build, and they recommended I pop in here to say hello.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

Has casting Tezz been difficult with 19 lands? I frequently run into problems with just the UR version of trying to get to 4 cmc between wastelands and other soft counters.

Just for my own interest how is spellskite supposed to work with kcommand? If my opponent chooses the destroy target artifact and the deal 2 damage to target creature modes I should be able to redirect both of those to spellskite right?

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Originally Posted by CptHaddock

Just for my own interest how is spellskite supposed to work with kcommand? If my opponent chooses the destroy target artifact and the deal 2 damage to target creature modes I should be able to redirect both of those to spellskite right?

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Correct

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Originally Posted by kombatkiwi

Correct

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Neat, guess this means that spellskite is bugged on MTGO. So much for testing it in the Czech Pile/Grixis Control matchups.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CptHaddock

Neat, guess this means that spellskite is bugged on MTGO. So much for testing it in the Czech Pile/Grixis Control matchups.

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Spellskite is not bugged because you can not redirect both on spellskite because the spell is resolve in the same time then spellskite is destroy before you can redirect.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CptHaddock

Neat, guess this means that spellskite is bugged on MTGO. So much for testing it in the Czech Pile/Grixis Control matchups.

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Relevant thread here:

https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/...aghans-command

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cyanhur

Spellskite is not bugged because you can not redirect both on spellskite because the spell is resolve in the same time then spellskite is destroy before you can redirect.

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That's not how kcommand works though. Once the spell resolves both actions happen at the same time. Since both modes can independently target you should be able to redirect both modes to my spellskite since he's a valid target for both modes both portions of the card should be redirected.

Hisa's post just confirms that the card is indeed bugged on mtgo.

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The spell has multiple instances of the word "target".

601.2c The player announces his or her choice of an appropriate player, object, or zone for each target the spell requires. A spell may require some targets only if an alternative or additional cost (such as a buyback or kicker cost), or a particular mode, was chosen for it; otherwise, the spell is cast as though it did not require those targets. If the spell has a variable number of targets, the player announces how many targets he or she will choose before he or she announces those targets. The same target can’t be chosen multiple times for any one instance of the word “target” on the spell. However, if the spell uses the word “target” in multiple places, the same object, player, or zone can be chosen once for each instance of the word “target” (as long as it fits the targeting criteria)...

Spellskite is a valid target for "target artifact" and "target creature or player", so it's perfectly legal to target Spellskite with both modes.

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