[Deck] Team America (BUG Delver)

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Originally Posted by ESG

* Nimble Mongoose has been lagging for a while, so I wouldn't be surprised if RUG lists dropped some or all copies for Treasure Cruise and either True-Name Nemesis or more burn spells. The BURG deck has a lot in common with RUG and would love to jam Treasure Cruise.

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If RUG likes Treasure Cruise they'll drop Nimble Mongoose for something like Young Pyromancer. I don't think they're going to go with another 1cc burn spell because they're right on the pressure curve as it is and they'll be short permanents to keep the pressure on.

BUG is still going to get hurt worse than most of the other blue lists because DRS and Goyf are two of the best cards in the list in terms of cost vs effect. The argument that the opponent's GY will make up the difference just doesn't fly if Treasure Cruise is a real thing. The opponent will be playing it also in that case and removing the one card in their list that really gets hurt by delve, whatever that is.

What all the delve cards are really aimed at in my opinion is making it easier for people to proactively remove their own GY for worthwhile effects when all the GY is doing is helping their opponent in some way. That it might also finally kill off threshold as a playable mechanic is just icing on the cake for WotC. They've been trying to figure out a way to kill off threshold quietly for years now, with DRS as the most obvious device.

The insane thing about what they've done here is that they're going to totally blow up the Khans Standard in the process. They've pushed people towards blue and control with the two blue delve spells and they did it at the same time they reprinted the fetches, which is going to make yards meatier than they've been in a while. I expect we'll see a 10-12 fetch list in here somewhere steamrolling a lot of things WotC would rather have had playable in the meta.

You realise that Fetches, aside from how they work with Courser, are crap in Standard, right? Worse than Checklands in 90% of situations.

That aside: Shaman does work against Delve. If we land an early Shaman against someone with Delver cards, it becomes ab even bigger target than it is right now. If we can eat 2-3 cards with a Shaman, we set them back far enough.

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Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

If RUG likes Treasure Cruise they'll drop Nimble Mongoose for something like Young Pyromancer. I don't think they're going to go with another 1cc burn spell because they're right on the pressure curve as it is and they'll be short permanents to keep the pressure on.

BUG is still going to get hurt worse than most of the other blue lists because DRS and Goyf are two of the best cards in the list in terms of cost vs effect. The argument that the opponent's GY will make up the difference just doesn't fly if Treasure Cruise is a real thing. The opponent will be playing it also in that case and removing the one card in their list that really gets hurt by delve, whatever that is.

What all the delve cards are really aimed at in my opinion is making it easier for people to proactively remove their own GY for worthwhile effects when all the GY is doing is helping their opponent in some way. That it might also finally kill off threshold as a playable mechanic is just icing on the cake for WotC. They've been trying to figure out a way to kill off threshold quietly for years now, with DRS as the most obvious device.

The insane thing about what they've done here is that they're going to totally blow up the Khans Standard in the process. They've pushed people towards blue and control with the two blue delve spells and they did it at the same time they reprinted the fetches, which is going to make yards meatier than they've been in a while. I expect we'll see a 10-12 fetch list in here somewhere steamrolling a lot of things WotC would rather have had playable in the meta.

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No one in RUG is even talking about Treasure, cuz its a lousy card in that deck. Same with this deck.

The only decks i see playing this card would be something like Miracles, UR burn, omnitell or UWR

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Originally Posted by KobeBryan

No one in RUG is even talking about Treasure, cuz its a lousy card in that deck. Same with this deck.

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True, the RUG thread is much too caught up in Hooting Mandrills, which is another mediocre card that I doubt will see widespread play.

I am interested to see what (if any) play Stubborn Denial will see. I think it could be a decent card in BUG decks running Tombstalker as an excellent way to protect it's own threats while also acting as a hard counter against control decks in the late game. Nothing is worse than holding onto a Spellpierce while your opponent casts STP or Terminus with a ton of land untapped.

I'm also eager to see how Stubborn Denial pans out. My gut tells me it won't be as good Spell Pierce, because it requires a Stalker or a medium sized Goyf.

If the spell isn't Ferocious, it's around the same power level as Force Spike. I've never seen Force Spike cast in Legacy.

That said, you are absolutely right about it being the worst when you have Pierce in hand and they Terminus your board with 2 or 3 extra up.

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Originally Posted by T-101

I'm also eager to see how Stubborn Denial pans out. My gut tells me it won't be as good Spell Pierce, because it requires a Stalker or a medium sized Goyf.

If the spell isn't Ferocious, it's around the same power level as Force Spike. I've never seen Force Spike cast in Legacy.

That said, you are absolutely right about it being the worst when you have Pierce in hand and they Terminus your board with 2 or 3 extra up.

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I'm going to go with your gut on this one. Envelop is the card to counter Terminus and Infernal Tutor.

The biggest thing that people are missing with "who will be a better cruise deck" is the strategic angle. Just as Vision facilitates the grindy midrange plan Shardless adopts, Cruise will back up the midrange strategy that BUG Delver often assumes (falls back on?). This deck topdecks better than almost every deck and is designed to get to that point. Cruise helps there. Uwr and RUG are not trying to get into topdeck wars.

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Originally Posted by T-101

I'm also eager to see how Stubborn Denial pans out. My gut tells me it won't be as good Spell Pierce, because it requires a Stalker or a medium sized Goyf.

If the spell isn't Ferocious, it's around the same power level as Force Spike. I've never seen Force Spike cast in Legacy.

That said, you are absolutely right about it being the worst when you have Pierce in hand and they Terminus your board with 2 or 3 extra up.

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If Stubborn Denial was a complete counter it would be a 2-of in Legacy lists playing Tempo and probably bring the total counters to 9 or 10 depending on how many FoW were being played. As a non-creature counter it won't see play at all.

Tested with cruise last night against UWR (with cruise), Tezzeret (with dig), and BURG many games both on play and draw. Switched to the list phazonmutant outlines below, but stuck with 19 land. This was also my first experience playing this deck with discard. I left the most relevant sentence from Greg's post.

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Originally Posted by phazonmutant

I tested a 6 game set in the mirror (just what my friend had on him) and got a good feel for the card. My list was the same as from Columbus (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=68947), -1 Tombstalker, -1 Clique, -1 Library, -1 Pierce for +3 Cruise and +1 land (I've been feeling better with 20 lately).

Every turn after turn 3, it was the exact card I was hoping to draw.

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Card's absurd. I also immediately noticed that this deck is now almost always control, and hopes to play in the midgame. My plan wasn't to jam and get there asap, it was to prevent my opponent from playing for a few turns until I could have a full grip and they had nothing. Then you just dominate. I only lost 1 or 2 games to BURG and that was strictly due to flooding.

Hopefully, this week I'll test a stifle list with cruise (my preferred playstyle to discard), but the synergies between lili + cruise, and hymn ensuring your goyfs are huge and deathrites active may be too much to pass up.

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Originally Posted by Teknique

Tested with cruise last night against UWR (with cruise), Tezzeret (with dig), and BURG many games both on play and draw. Switched to the list phazonmutant outlines below, but stuck with 19 land. This was also my first experience playing this deck with discard. I left the most relevant sentence from Greg's post.
Card's absurd. I also immediately noticed that this deck is now almost always control, and hopes to play in the midgame. My plan wasn't to jam and get there asap, it was to prevent my opponent from playing for a few turns until I could have a full grip and they had nothing. Then you just dominate. I only lost 1 or 2 games to BURG and that was strictly due to flooding.

Hopefully, this week I'll test a stifle list with cruise (my preferred playstyle to discard), but the synergies between lili + cruise, and hymn ensuring your goyfs are huge and deathrites active may be too much to pass up.

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Ask yourself how this will play if both players are playing it. Goyfs small(er), DRS (inactive), etc. It's a double-edged sword. You'll have it in your hand some games and not want to play it because your opponent has already delved and you're going to have to shrink your Goyfs back down to 1/2 or 2/3 to play it. Your DRS will now compete with your Goyfs. Your opponents will selectively delve to keep your Goyf small and prevent your DRS from doing one of the two things you'd ideally like to do.

It's a trap unless you can find things to draw that aren't GY dependent in some way or you are in a suddenly toothless mirror match.

If you don't delve then your Goyfs will still be 80% size at minimum assuming you can manage the opponent's DRS. You won't get completely blown out by a list that resolves RiP.

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Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

Ask yourself how this will play if both players are playing it. Goyfs small(er), DRS (inactive), etc. It's a double-edged sword. You'll have it in your hand some games and not want to play it because your opponent has already delved and you're going to have to shrink your Goyfs back down to 1/2 or 2/3 to play it. Your DRS will now compete with your Goyfs. Your opponents will selectively delve to keep your Goyf small and prevent your DRS from doing one of the two things you'd ideally like to do.

It's a trap unless you can find things to draw that aren't GY dependent in some way or you are in a suddenly toothless mirror match.

If you don't delve then your Goyfs will still be 80% size at minimum assuming you can manage the opponent's DRS. You won't get completely blown out by a list that resolves RiP.

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You keep putting it down and it doesn't seem like you've tested it. Which is fine. I'd like to play against the staunch disbelievers in cruise at a large event and blow them out when I've drawn 6+ more cards than them...

I made a point of saying that the UWR list I played against was running cruise. I, as well as other people who have actually played cruise mirrors will keep telling you, it just doesn't matter. Unless there is a RIP in play, there are graveyards and shaman and goyf are active. Even in the situations where your goyf is down to a 2/3, you don't give a shit, because you have 6 cards in hand, probably 2/3 dudes on board, and your opponent has nothing but lands. And guess what, next turn you have 4-5 cards in the yard anyway and your goyf is big again. Like I said, the deck stops caring about speed (ala big goyfs) and assumes complete control. You have the time to ping them to death.

You act like casting a treasure cruise removes all graveyards from the game and stops more cards from going in...Stop theory crafting when people are telling you that the card is the real deal, and actually test it. Then maybe your posts will be constructive and help the deck move forward.

I've been more in on the Cruise plan as of recent, too. I'm going to be cutting back to the Discard + Countermagic nonbo deck that somehow works, and jamming Liliana and Cruises. Ever since I decided to just jam together a quick control list that made Cruise work I've been more and more interested in both it, and Dig Through Time. I'll be playing a lot more Legacy, and Magic in general now that my friend has his own place, so I'll be playing a lot of games with a lot of different configurations that I've never really had the opportunities to test before now. Sadly, however, it seems that UW Control is still the best deck in the format, so my absolutely beautiful BUG Delver deck will probably stay in its box for most tournaments. :(

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Originally Posted by Teknique

You keep putting it down and it doesn't seem like you've tested it. Which is fine. I'd like to play against the staunch disbelievers in cruise at a large event and blow them out when I've drawn 6+ more cards than them...

I made a point of saying that the UWR list I played against was running cruise. I, as well as other people who have actually played cruise mirrors will keep telling you, it just doesn't matter. Unless there is a RIP in play, there are graveyards and shaman and goyf are active. Even in the situations where your goyf is down to a 2/3, you don't give a shit, because you have 6 cards in hand, probably 2/3 dudes on board, and your opponent has nothing but lands. And guess what, next turn you have 4-5 cards in the yard anyway and your goyf is big again. Like I said, the deck stops caring about speed (ala big goyfs) and assumes complete control. You have the time to ping them to death.

You act like casting a treasure cruise removes all graveyards from the game and stops more cards from going in...Stop theory crafting when people are telling you that the card is the real deal, and actually test it. Then maybe your posts will be constructive and help the deck move forward.

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I've tested it in BUG Delver, primarily against RUG Tempo. Still testing but I think a singleton TC in my list is probably a good idea. He hated the card with a passion because when he and I were both running 3 (and then 2) his list suffered pretty horribly from the dual delves going on. Nimble Mongoose is *really* bad alongside Treasure Cruise. Goyf is not what you want him to be in games in which both sides delve, particularly when you delve first and your opponent gets to selectively delve after you. If they delve out creatures, instants and lands after you've delved heavily for your TC the Goyf is really small, like 2/3 at the end of that.

T. Cruise is REAL.

:cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool:
EVERY TIME I CAST IT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaiSHcHM0PA

Alright, so the hyperbolic statements surrounding T. Cruise are getting kinda silly. But guess what? Play 4 of them in Team America and you've just made the best deck in Legacy even better.

I've done about 3 days worth of testing with 4x Treasure Cruise. It slots perfectly in this deck. Running the full playset is correct, at least for the time being for the following reasons:

-You ALWAYS want to cast it. Playing 4 copies means it shows up with fairly good certainty right at about the time you can play it (whether for 1, 2, or even 3+ mana). Although running only 2-3 copies is 'safer', this is a card that does a lot towards helping you win the game, and isn't dead in multiples like, say, Sylvan Library is.
-If you get stuck with multiples early, there's no problem with pitching it to FoW or avoiding the issue entirely via Ponder/Bstorm
-This deck has an easy time filling the graveyard to cast multiple copies. The card itself also helps fuel future castings
-It makes actual strategic sense in this deck. Tap out early on, throw everything you got at the opponent, and then refuel with this card to start the onslaught all over again in the midgame. Since BUG is a hybrid control deck that veers more towards playing a midrange game in comparison to its Stifle-toting brethren, the card advantage is perfect for this deck. I think UWr will also see similar adoption, but RUG will probably have to reconfigure its threat base if it decides to play Delve cards like this
-It hardly interferes with DRS or Goyf. You're generally using your opponent's GY for them.

To all current naysayers: seriously, test it out. I doubted it at first as well. Unlike red herring cards like Temporal Manipulation, Cruise doesn't require massive amounts of setup and simply rewards you for playing Magic -- much like Tarmogoyf. Until people start hating on this effectively, there is no reason not to be playing this card. It gives TA the power of BUG Cascade, without having to run junky enablers or forego Daze and whatnot. I think it's also reasonable to consider running a few more singletons in the list since with all the card draw, it'd be easier to actual see those sort of cards.

Rest in Peace is a card that will likely be seeing a LOT more sideboard play. But with 4 ADecay and 2-3 Golgari Charm, that is really just more of a speedbump than an actual impediment to our strategy. Plus, I'd much rather the opponent be playing a bunch of non-threatening Sideboard cards instead of things that actually kill us.

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Originally Posted by wcm8

T. Cruise is REAL.

:cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool:
EVERY TIME I CAST IT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaiSHcHM0PA

Alright, so the hyperbolic statements surrounding T. Cruise are getting kinda silly. But guess what? Play 4 of them in Team America and you've just made the best deck in Legacy even better.

I've done about 3 days worth of testing with 4x Treasure Cruise. It slots perfectly in this deck. Running the full playset is correct, at least for the time being for the following reasons:

-You ALWAYS want to cast it. Playing 4 copies means it shows up with fairly good certainty right at about the time you can play it (whether for 1, 2, or even 3+ mana). Although running only 2-3 copies is 'safer', this is a card that does a lot towards helping you win the game, and isn't dead in multiples like, say, Sylvan Library is.
-If you get stuck with multiples early, there's no problem with pitching it to FoW or avoiding the issue entirely via Ponder/Bstorm
-This deck has an easy time filling the graveyard to cast multiple copies. The card itself also helps fuel future castings
-It makes actual strategic sense in this deck. Tap out early on, throw everything you got at the opponent, and then refuel with this card to start the onslaught all over again in the midgame. Since BUG is a hybrid control deck that veers more towards playing a midrange game in comparison to its Stifle-toting brethren, the card advantage is perfect for this deck. I think UWr will also see similar adoption, but RUG will probably have to reconfigure its threat base if it decides to play Delve cards like this
-It hardly interferes with DRS or Goyf. You're generally using your opponent's GY for them.

To all current naysayers: seriously, test it out. I doubted it at first as well. Unlike red herring cards like Temporal Manipulation, Cruise doesn't require massive amounts of setup and simply rewards you for playing Magic -- much like Tarmogoyf. Until people start hating on this effectively, there is no reason not to be playing this card. It gives TA the power of BUG Cascade, without having to run junky enablers or forego Daze and whatnot. I think it's also reasonable to consider running a few more singletons in the list since with all the card draw, it'd be easier to actual see those sort of cards.

Rest in Peace is a card that will likely be seeing a LOT more sideboard play. But with 4 ADecay and 2-3 Golgari Charm, that is really just more of a speedbump than an actual impediment to our strategy. Plus, I'd much rather the opponent be playing a bunch of non-threatening Sideboard cards instead of things that actually kill us.

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What are you taking out to play this as a 4 of?

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Originally Posted by wcm8

T. Cruise is REAL.

:cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool:
EVERY TIME I CAST IT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaiSHcHM0PA

Alright, so the hyperbolic statements surrounding T. Cruise are getting kinda silly. But guess what? Play 4 of them in Team America and you've just made the best deck in Legacy even better.

I've done about 3 days worth of testing with 4x Treasure Cruise. It slots perfectly in this deck. Running the full playset is correct, at least for the time being for the following reasons:

-You ALWAYS want to cast it. Playing 4 copies means it shows up with fairly good certainty right at about the time you can play it (whether for 1, 2, or even 3+ mana). Although running only 2-3 copies is 'safer', this is a card that does a lot towards helping you win the game, and isn't dead in multiples like, say, Sylvan Library is.
-If you get stuck with multiples early, there's no problem with pitching it to FoW or avoiding the issue entirely via Ponder/Bstorm
-This deck has an easy time filling the graveyard to cast multiple copies. The card itself also helps fuel future castings
-It makes actual strategic sense in this deck. Tap out early on, throw everything you got at the opponent, and then refuel with this card to start the onslaught all over again in the midgame. Since BUG is a hybrid control deck that veers more towards playing a midrange game in comparison to its Stifle-toting brethren, the card advantage is perfect for this deck. I think UWr will also see similar adoption, but RUG will probably have to reconfigure its threat base if it decides to play Delve cards like this
-It hardly interferes with DRS or Goyf. You're generally using your opponent's GY for them.

To all current naysayers: seriously, test it out. I doubted it at first as well. Unlike red herring cards like Temporal Manipulation, Cruise doesn't require massive amounts of setup and simply rewards you for playing Magic -- much like Tarmogoyf. Until people start hating on this effectively, there is no reason not to be playing this card. It gives TA the power of BUG Cascade, without having to run junky enablers or forego Daze and whatnot. I think it's also reasonable to consider running a few more singletons in the list since with all the card draw, it'd be easier to actual see those sort of cards.

Rest in Peace is a card that will likely be seeing a LOT more sideboard play. But with 4 ADecay and 2-3 Golgari Charm, that is really just more of a speedbump than an actual impediment to our strategy. Plus, I'd much rather the opponent be playing a bunch of non-threatening Sideboard cards instead of things that actually kill us.

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Awesome to see I'm not shouting into the wind here! :cool: What's the list you're testing with?
But overall, agreed with every one of your points. A rare occurrence for me... In particular, I agree that Rest In Peace probably isn't as bad for us as it seems. If every white deck is jamming RiP, it actually makes Charm better. Previously it was hard to bring in several in the *blade matchup because they only have a couple of X/1 creatures and no enchantments. It was hard to bring in against Miracles because they have very few X/1s you care about and you can play through CB and RiP, and it's not good to have too many reactive cards in the matchup. But if those decks are relying more on RiP to beat us, then Charm's equity goes up - our plan A is stronger and we can stop their answer to it.

I really don't get why anyone is naysaying at this point. TC and DTT are both great and nearly every person who has tested them has come to this conclusion, which is a strong indication that it's not just because someone is running hot. TC probably better in the Stifle shell because it has less midgame air (cf. drawing Hymn against a hellbent opponent), but that's my preliminary thought rather than something that's been borne out by testing.

Speaking of the Stifle lists this is the one I've been testing with cruise:

Spells: 29

4x Daze
4x Brainstorm
4x Abrupt Decay
3x Force of Will
4x Ponder
2x Treasure Cruise
3x Stifle
2x Disfigure
2x Spell Pierce
1x Spell Snare

Creatures: 13

4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Tarmagoyf
1x Vendilion Clique


Lands: 18

4x Wasteland
3x Polluted Delta
3x Verdant Catacombs
2x Misty Rainforest
3x Tropical Island
3x Underground Sea

Sideboard: 15

1x Force of Will
1x Marsh Casualties
1x Null Rod
1x Pithing Needle
2x Grafdigger’s Cage
1x Dread of Night
1x Engineered Plague
1x Disfigure
1x Sylvan Library
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Divert
1x Thoughtseize
1x Chill
1x Krosan Grip

And it's been really good! I started with a list very similiar to Teknique's, and decided the most obvious cut for TC was the Dark Confidants (even though they were great in the deck before). I'm lovin it, but the only problem is that I like drawing TC so much I'm thinking of going up to 3 (maybe dropping a ponder to do so). Also, it's always great to get the spell count higher when playing with Delver. I still think the "best" TC decks will be the blue cantrippy ones that are completely not dependent on the graveyard otherwise, stuff like UR Delver, but the card is just so good that until there is a shift in meta or more hate that it definitely fits in some of the BUG builds.

-1 Spell Snare
-1 Disfigure
-1 V Clique
+2 T. Cruise
+1 FoW

The 4th Force was likely cut from your list because of Dark Confidant, now that he's dropped there's no reason not to go back up to 4. Snare seems random as a 1 of, and I wouldn't really want Clique if you're only running 18 lands.

2nd Disfigure just because with Cruise you'll be ripping through your Library quickly enough that in G1 you will probably be able to find enough removal.

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Originally Posted by wcm8

-1 Spell Snare
-1 Disfigure
-1 V Clique
+2 T. Cruise
+1 FoW

The 4th Force was likely cut from your list because of Dark Confidant, now that he's dropped there's no reason not to go back up to 4. Snare seems random as a 1 of, and I wouldn't really want Clique if you're only running 18 lands.

2nd Disfigure just because with Cruise you'll be ripping through your Library quickly enough that in G1 you will probably be able to find enough removal.

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Agreed. 4 force of will is absolutely correct with treasure cruise. I wouldn't be surprised if the correct number of force of wills was 5 or even 6.

-IJ

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Originally Posted by wcm8

-1 Spell Snare
-1 Disfigure
-1 V Clique
+2 T. Cruise
+1 FoW

The 4th Force was likely cut from your list because of Dark Confidant, now that he's dropped there's no reason not to go back up to 4. Snare seems random as a 1 of, and I wouldn't really want Clique if you're only running 18 lands.

2nd Disfigure just because with Cruise you'll be ripping through your Library quickly enough that in G1 you will probably be able to find enough removal.

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I think I would rather cut the 4th Abrupt Decay over the 2nd Disfigure, and leave all other changes you mentioned. On 18 lands, I want to be able to cast the removal that I'm searching for on the same turn, and have higher turn 1 shaman kills.

Snare seems fine in the discard builds in place of some number of pierces/other things because its going to counter the only cards that we'll be caring about (RIP, opposing hymns, etc) which will likely be in higher numbers once the cruise takes off (sorry), and pierce loses value because they will be pitching the most expensive cards (cards you want to pierce) to fow your hymns and cruises anyway. In the stifle builds, pierce is just better bc you're on a much better mana denial plan.