[DTB] U/R Delver

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Originally Posted by Hanni

Miracles did lose with bannings though... they lost Sensei's Divining Top. The Miracles matchup still isn't great, but not having to worry about the hard softlock of CounterTop makes the matchup significantly better than it was before.

I realize you are talking about them not losing anything in the most recent bannings, but losing Probe is honestly not as big of a deal for this deck as it was for ANT and Grixis Delver. You lose a couple of points of free damage, which matters, but not to the extent of major significance. Stormchaser wasn't a very good card in the first place, and Swiftspear is still a perfectly good and legitimate threat. The Miracles matchup will always come down to the last few points of damage because that's how the dynamic of that matchup shakes out. At least now, the threat of being locked out behind a Counterbalance is much less likely.

It's difficult for me to talk about matchups like Grixis Control in a vague way, because I play Sligh, not traditional UR Delver. I can totally understand why that matchup would be difficult for traditional UR Delver... you're far more dependent on creature damage, lack the density of one drops to overload their spot removal early game, and don't have the same burn density to close the game out. Hymn to Tourach is certainly problematic, but if they are attacking your hand, they aren't attacking your board... although this is less of an issue for my Sligh list, which dumps its hand more quickly. Basically, my Sligh version gives up game one percentages against combo decks to greatly improve my fair matchups, so decks like Grixis Control and D&T become great for me.

The Grixis Control deck, even with basics, is still going to regularly take 4 or more damage from a well-timed PoP.

ANT isn't a great matchup, but them losing Probe slows their deck down considerably. They can still turn 1 you, they can still turn 2 you, but it's much less consistent and much riskier for them. Sometimes they don't have it until turn 4. Racing them is a legitimate plan again. They also lost Cabal Therapy, so they can no longer destroy a double FoW hand with a single discard spell before going off. The matchup still isn't great, but it is considerably better now without them having Probe.

The Chalice matchups are only bad if they have/resolve Chalice on turn 1 or 2. They are easily beatable otherwise. I have 4 Smash to Smithereens in my sideboard, so I'm often able to beat Chalice postboard. My D&T opponent resolved two Chalices against me postboard, on turns 2 and 3, that I conveniently had two Smash's for (I Brainstorm'd into the second copy).

What I am saying is that my Sligh list is favorable against all of its fair matchups by giving away percentages against combo matchups in game one, including Miracles and Grixis Control. Since the combo matchups aren't actually that good for traditional UR Delver in game one anyway, I'm perfectly fine with making that tradeoff. I believe that doing this makes Sligh much better positioned in the current meta than traditional UR Delver is.

I think if you're going to go away from traditional UR Delver and into a more tempo-based approach, you would be better off going RUG or Grixis instead.

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Can you share your list?

Sure.

R/u Sligh

Lands (18)
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Arid Mesa
4 Volcanic Island
2 Mountain
2 Barbarian Ring

Creatures (14)
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Goblin Guide
2 Grim Lavamancer

Spells (28)
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Forked Bolt
2 Price of Progress
2 Fireblast

Sideboard (15)
4 Smash to Smithereens
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
2 Seal of Removal
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle

LSV playing “Arclight Delver”
https://www.channelfireball.com/vide...290.1506944874


Arclight is awesome, faithless is good. I definitely am going to tinker with this and run it through some leagues.

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Originally Posted by Hisa

LSV playing “Arclight Delver”
https://www.channelfireball.com/vide...290.1506944874


Arclight is awesome, faithless is good. I definitely am going to tinker with this and run it through some leagues.

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Looked great but daze looked super weak. Thoughtscour looked underwhelming, i think preordain is just better. Gutshot seemed pretty deece. I think i’d personally play black for discard and as few reactive spells as possible md. I’m trying this deck in paper tomorrow.

Vapor Snag, Seal of Removal, or Alpine Moon in the sideboard against Depths? Vapor Snag is of course usable against other decks as well and causes loss of life. Seal of Removal is better against their discard, though can be hit by Abrupt Decay and Assassin's Trophy. Alpine Moon is quite like Seal of Removal, but can shut down all of their Dark Depths, with the down side that they can then first play their Dark Depths and then Abrupt Decay the Alpine Moon and get a free 20/20 (you could, of course, name Thespian's Stage, but then you’re soft to Vampire Hexmage. Dead // Gone is another consideration, but I find it to be too expensive.

Seal of Removal is useful against Show and Tell, where the other bounce spell options are not remotely as good, which is why I prefer it.

I'd much rather run Pithing Needle instead of Alpine Moon, since it is significantly more versatile while hitting just about everything you would use Alpine Moon for anyway.

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Originally Posted by JackaBo

Looked great but daze looked super weak. Thoughtscour looked underwhelming, i think preordain is just better. Gutshot seemed pretty deece. I think i’d personally play black for discard and as few reactive spells as possible md. I’m trying this deck in paper tomorrow.

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After playing it, it was fun but not really competitive.
#You want to play tap-out to recur the birds making normal delver cards like daze and pierce anti-synergestic
#Four mana is a lot in a delver deck. #Faithless looting is a bad magic card unless you play a heavy graveyard theme.
#Delver and bolts, on the other hand, is just great together. Been a while since i played an 8-bolt list and topdecking a bolt is almost never bad.

https://media.wizards.com/2018/rna/en_9a3gp0NJ74.png

Is this card absolutely good in this deck? It's almost like a 1 mana draw 2 spell, but:
- the two cards can't be discarded;
- you must cast them until the end of your next turn;
It says play, not cast, so you can play the lands you draw.
Can you cast Force of Will for the alternate cost if you exile it with Light Up the Stage?

I'm pretty sure you can alternate cast spells; nothing on the card says otherwise.

The Spectacle mechanic looks awesome, especially on instants (can cast in response to an opponent's fetchland), so I wouldn't be surprised if we see something really powerful printed with it.

As for Light up the Stage, the card looks much better than Risk Factor. Still not sure the deck wants either effect, though.

I've had great success with risk factor and 2 decks that went 5-1 this week in the legacy challenge ran it. I definitely think it has a place.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

I'm pretty sure you can alternate cast spells; nothing on the card says otherwise.

The Spectacle mechanic looks awesome, especially on instants (can cast in response to an opponent's fetchland), so I wouldn't be surprised if we see something really powerful printed with it.

As for Light up the Stage, the card looks much better than Risk Factor. Still not sure the deck wants either effect, though.

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Originally Posted by License2pill

I've had great success with risk factor and 2 decks that went 5-1 this week in the legacy challenge ran it. I definitely think it has a place.

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Don’t forget the GP deck that went undefeated on day one as well, which is a much larger sample size!

Exactly. I think risk factor has cemented itself in the prowess ur delver builds.

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Originally Posted by ryscott85

Don’t forget the GP deck that went undefeated on day one as well, which is a much larger sample size!

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Originally Posted by Alex_UNLIMITED

https://media.wizards.com/2018/rna/en_9a3gp0NJ74.png

Is this card absolutely good in this deck? It's almost like a 1 mana draw 2 spell, but:
- the two cards can't be discarded;
- you must cast them until the end of your next turn;
It says play, not cast, so you can play the lands you draw.
Can you cast Force of Will for the alternate cost if you exile it with Light Up the Stage?

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Definitely seems like an interesting card that I want to try out.

Only issue I can see is a slight anti-synergy with prowess if you need to do the damage with a creature as you'd have to attack first and cast after the combat phase. Can still be triggered first with a bolt but then that's RR which makes it a bit trickier to cast.

Counter spells are going to be visible but it could potentially slow an opponent down as they won't want to cast into it.

Gonna proxy and see how it performs if I get the chance to play over the Christmas period.

I'm not saying Risk Factor is a bad card for this deck. With that said, just because lists are doing well with that card in them doesn't necessarily make it a good card for the deck either.

This deck does tend to have issues closing games if it's early creature threats are dealt with, sure. Price of Progress used to fill that role, but so many decks are running lots of basics these days, so it's not a consistent finisher anymore. Risk Factor provides a lot of gas, sure. It does cost 3 mana though, and you'll likely want to cast it twice. At that cost, is it better than True-Name Nemesis, Sulfuric Vortex, or even Snapcaster Mage? I don't know. 3 mana is still a rather significant cost.

At least with Light Up the Stage, you're likely able to cast it for one mana. I'd certainly be testing it in the Risk Factor slots, if nothing else.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

I'm not saying Risk Factor is a bad card for this deck. With that said, just because lists are doing well with that card in them doesn't necessarily make it a good card for the deck either.

This deck does tend to have issues closing games if it's early creature threats are dealt with, sure. Price of Progress used to fill that role, but so many decks are running lots of basics these days, so it's not a consistent finisher anymore. Risk Factor provides a lot of gas, sure. It does cost 3 mana though, and you'll likely want to cast it twice. At that cost, is it better than True-Name Nemesis, Sulfuric Vortex, or even Snapcaster Mage? I don't know. 3 mana is still a rather significant cost.

At least with Light Up the Stage, you're likely able to cast it for one mana. I'd certainly be testing it in the Risk Factor slots, if nothing else.

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The point with Risk Factor is that u want to see it in all grindy and longer matchups because its a 2 for 1 but I hate it against tempo and fast decks because its cc3 and super slow. The problem I see with Light up the Stage is that you need to deal damage first which can destroy your line of play but its worth testing since its "play cards" and not cast. UR still has more of a missing good and efficient creatures problem so WotC needs to print something there. Anyway this is my current build:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Goblin Guide
2 Eidolon of the Great Revel
1 Grim Lavamancer
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Preordain (could be easily "Light up the Stage" in the future)
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning
1 Forked Bolt
2 Price of Progress
1 Risk Factor
1 Fireblast
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Volcanic island
1 Island
1 Mountain

I moved away from the tempo orientated version because it literally did nothing against Control decks and did not present a consistent clock vs. combo decks. The deck is heavily on aggro and uses blue almost as a splash for cantrips, counter spells and Delver. I am playing the list now quite succesfull for the last 3-4 weeks. It contains 12 one drops to always generate an early clock and threats paired with a single Lavamancer for specific matchups (D&T, Elves, etc.). Eidolon is the controversial spot here, let me explain: I was trying to find a creature which provides instant (!) value and damage when being played. Stormchaser Mage has Haste and will likely come for 1 or 2 until it gets removed so he felt very underwhelming. Young Pyromancer provided instant value back then with Probe but felt very slow especially since playing FoW in this deck is only necessary against combo, for the rest of the matchups you dont want FoW. Eidolon on the other hand presents more than just value. The whole point about missing interaction of Ur vs. multiple decks running Snapcaster, a lot of removal, cantrips and decks like Storm or Elves are being completely crushed by Eidolon. I often had games vs. Grixis and Bug Control in which I raced my opponent till 10 damage but wasnt able to close it out because my opponent eventually found removal and Snapcasters. By letting Eidolon resolve with a single counter backup the game is practically GG for you in a lot of cases because a single cantrip or Snapcaster is a huge blowout and punishment for our opponent. Eidolon creates so much value for us the moment it is being played if we are ahead in the race. There are a couple of things you want to consider when playing Eidolon:
- You need to have at least 1 more creature on the battlefield to continue playing aggressive.
- Playing Eidolon if you suspect a coming Gurmag Angler or TNN is not to good unless your opponent is on 6 life or below
- Eidolon is only worth playing if it does a minimum of 4 damage so you should line it up if possible (leaving FoW in hand or play your cantrip first and Eidolon next turn)
- Eidolon is often a protection for your other threats because your opponent needs to deal with it immediately (!!) so just of a racing standpoint slam it turn 3 if you played turn 1 and 2 only creatures, this is the Zoo draw which makes the deck extremely good
- Eidolon is imo the first real improvement the deck ever received postban. Eidolon did not make sense at all in a meta which you exploited Probe but now it feels like it can really punish a lot of strategies and for the first time Eidolon gives you a decent to winnable Storm matchup preboard which was never the case with UR
- You definitely never play 4 Eidolon in no build, also 3 I would only recommend if youre facing a lot of control decks. As slower your opponents list is as better Eidolon gets so Im on 2 right now and could think about cutting the single Lavamancer for a 3. one in a GControl and Miracles heavy meta.

The rest of the deck is quite standard. I still like 2 PoP and I use the single Fireblast to race combo and the single Risk Factor to face control builds, both I normally board out against aggressive and Wasteland decks (exception would be Shadow). I also use still the 3/1 Chain and Forked split since I want that 1 of Forked Bolt against Elves, Goblins, D&T and Delver. FoW is only there against unfair decks and is boarded out most of the time, against control you leave 2 in for making sure lethal damage gets through. Actually in a fair meta I would also go down to maybe 3 FoW since its really not that great of a card for this specific build. Im also a fan of playing 15 creatures to really have a consistent clock on the board. 12 burn spells feel enough and also the balance between 9 cantrips and 8 counter spells. 16 lands are pretty standard, you want 8 blue fetch sources because only the Island is important vs. an opponents Blood Moon. This is the sideboard:

2 Surigcal Extraction
1 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce ( I like the Flusterstorm/Pierce split because Pierce also fights through Chalice, Liliana, etc.)
2 Pyroblast
2 Vapor Snag
2 Abrade
1 Blazing Volley (better than other mass removal because it gets under Thalia for 2 instead of 3 which is a big upside of it)
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Blood Moon (your only interaction vs. something like Maze of Ith, Tabernacle or Glacier Chasm so I like Blood Moon more than the 3. PoP in the sideboard)
1 Pithing Needle (statisfying overall but maybe the most unspecific slot, I could imagine to play the 3. Surgical instead)

Sideboard is a mix of fightning the GY, more counterspells vs. combo and control decks, Vapor Snag to fight through Angler and DD, artifact hate and certain hate cards to improve specific matchups such as Blood Moon vs. Loam and Lands, Sulfur Elemental vs. Miracles and D&T, Vortex vs. control and life gain and Needle against equibment and Planeswalker.

Hey everyone forgot to mention I am streaming ur deliver exclusively right now to try and get into the legacy format playoffs. I have a spreadsheet on my twitch page to see my matchups and records too. I also have replays on YouTube and twitch just look for license2pill on YouTube. Here is twitch

https://www.twitch.tv/license2pill

I'll be doing some longer streams Friday and Saturday starting around 2300 EST

At least now people mention Risk factor as a thing

Hello! I saw a Skred Delver take-on-legacy list making some results in a MOL legacy challenge. (I saw it here: https://twitter.com/TheMaverickGal/s...41971599142912)
Then I decided to try it (exactly the same, but with only 1 volc. - what I have -).
However, in my opinion the original list have some problems some problems(e.g.: not running bolts, and having Faerie Miscreant and Skred, that are pretty much valueless cards in many legacy matches); and, as we aren't playing pauper, we have many better options for these cards.
"Fixing" the list - removing some bad and dead cards and adding some better options -, I got this:

Creatures (13)
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Spellstuter Sprite
3 Ninja of the Deep Hours
2 Grim Lavamancer
Instants and Sorceries (31)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Counterspell
2 Price of Progress
2 Abrade
2 Risk Factor
2 Forked Bolt
Lands (16)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Snow-covered Island
3 Snow-covered Mountain
1 Volcanic Island
Sideboard (15)
1 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
2 Vapor Snag
2 Pyroblast
2 Blood Moon
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Rough//Tumble

It's a pretty diferent take on UR Delver, and I think that it may have some potential. It's slower, but with more counters it have a much more reliable match against combo decks. And Spellstuter Sprite + Ninja is pretty annoying (getting op's Brainstorms and Ponders).
In comparison with the now usual UR Delver-Burn list, I got better/more consistent results playing against UB shadow and reanimator. Against shadow, this list is superior due to Spellstuters, and vs reanimator we have many hates and more counters.
I never played against painter lists or belcher, but the deck is consistent against these decks in the extention of my playtesting.
The biggest problems I had in my testing was playing against a 4-color Superfriends Control list. It's pretty consistent, and we can't get all the planeswalkers with our needles (our needles/blood moons get destroyed by K-command, decays and trophies). Against this 4-color superfriends control, the normal U/R Delver-Burn might be better, because of the velocity that the deck have.
I didn't got to play against lands, nor eldrazi stompy, nor DnT, nor miracles, nor UW stoneblade. (< these + the other decks mentioned are my LGS legacy field).

I've been playing UR delver for 1 year now, and trying different perspectives on the deck is something I consider important. Hope to know your opinion about the list I built.

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Originally Posted by Loup

Hello! I saw a Skred Delver take-on-legacy list making some results in a MOL legacy challenge. (I saw it here: https://twitter.com/TheMaverickGal/s...41971599142912)
Then I decided to try it (exactly the same, but with only 1 volc. - what I have -).
However, in my opinion the original list have some problems some problems(e.g.: not running bolts, and having Faerie Miscreant and Skred, that are pretty much valueless cards in many legacy matches); and, as we aren't playing pauper, we have many better options for these cards.
"Fixing" the list - removing some bad and dead cards and adding some better options -, I got this:

Creatures (13)
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Spellstuter Sprite
3 Ninja of the Deep Hours
2 Grim Lavamancer
Instants and Sorceries (31)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Counterspell
2 Price of Progress
2 Abrade
2 Risk Factor
2 Forked Bolt
Lands (16)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Snow-covered Island
3 Snow-covered Mountain
1 Volcanic Island
Sideboard (15)
1 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
2 Vapor Snag
2 Pyroblast
2 Blood Moon
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Rough//Tumble

It's a pretty diferent take on UR Delver, and I think that it may have some potential. It's slower, but with more counters it have a much more reliable match against combo decks. And Spellstuter Sprite + Ninja is pretty annoying (getting op's Brainstorms and Ponders).
In comparison with the now usual UR Delver-Burn list, I got better/more consistent results playing against UB shadow and reanimator. Against shadow, this list is superior due to Spellstuters, and vs reanimator we have many hates and more counters.
I never played against painter lists or belcher, but the deck is consistent against these decks in the extention of my playtesting.
The biggest problems I had in my testing was playing against a 4-color Superfriends Control list. It's pretty consistent, and we can't get all the planeswalkers with our needles (our needles/blood moons get destroyed by K-command, decays and trophies). Against this 4-color superfriends control, the normal U/R Delver-Burn might be better, because of the velocity that the deck have.
I didn't got to play against lands, nor eldrazi stompy, nor DnT, nor miracles, nor UW stoneblade. (< these + the other decks mentioned are my LGS legacy field).

I've been playing UR delver for 1 year now, and trying different perspectives on the deck is something I consider important. Hope to know your opinion about the list I built.

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Are the snow lands a mind trick? I don’t see how they synergise with the rest of your list. Did you forget to add a skred in the list?

This seems to be a step from tempo to a burn-control build. I mean.. 3 counterspell! I’m not even sure miracles plays more than 1.

Looks interesting though. I have a mono U tempo list that uses the ninja to bounce spellstutter sprites, snapcasters and cliques. Works like a charm when it does!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by schweinefettmann

Are the snow lands a mind trick? I don’t see how they synergise with the rest of your list. Did you forget to add a skred in the list?

This seems to be a step from tempo to a burn-control build. I mean.. 3 counterspell! I’m not even sure miracles plays more than 1.

Looks interesting though. I have a mono U tempo list that uses the ninja to bounce spellstutter sprites, snapcasters and cliques. Works like a charm when it does!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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As I said, skred is a pretty bad card in the deck. The original list was using only 2, so they were not that consistent in the deck, and since we play red, I opted to get a set of bolts for flexibility, and some other stuff, like forked bolt and abrade in the main. Snow-covered lands are not necessary, then.
As I play only with the cards I have, the list is not the best. We change some fetches (add scalding tarns) and add +1volcanic. We can also try 2 back to basics in main deck, taking off 2 risk factor.