Re: The current state of Magic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dice_Box
Legacy has lost its shine. Not to us no, but to those who would have once joined our ranks. I have seen more people sell out of Legacy in the past 12 month then ever before. Hell even I have to a point. I basicly own Lands, Stax, Goblins and Elves now. Nothing else. Even that I will likely cut down on.
Who, as they get older, have kids, need house repayments, a new car or a set of school uniforms for the kids are really going to pick cardboard over life? We a tenacious bunch sure, but nothing lasts forever. And as we slowly fade who's really coming up to replace us? Fewer and fewer people will since Modern is a cheaper and good enough alternative for ones amusement.
I think all of this has to do with priorities. I have a couple of legacy decks built as well and if I ever felt the need to sell them in order to finance a house or pay for my kids braces then I will. I only get to play with the cards 1-2 times a month and to be honest that is enough for me at this time in my life. I know full well that my kids won't be small forever and that when they become old enough and think I'm boring as shit then I'll need to find a hobby. Thankfully I already have one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
maharis
When I moved here and showed up for the first Legacy night, the other players were like "wow, a 6th person to play sanctioned Legacy!" Now Legacy regularly fires twice a week here with 15-20 players on average. That's in less than two years. I play against kids younger than the cards all the time. Major-tournament Legacy support is creeping up as well; even SCG is running more Sunday tournaments after their departure from the open series touched off the Legacy-is-dying mania.
I don't see a need to be so melodramatic I guess. Sometimes people get so down on MTG I feel like playing makes me stupid. On the other hand I actually do have kids and a job and a house and it kind of irritates me when people say that you can't have that and also play Magic. I'm posting here on work downtime and I play on weekday evenings with the very occasional weekend tournament that I plan for. Am I supposed to be grouting my tub at 8pm on Tuesday? Am I supposed to be setting a fantasy football lineup instead with my leisure time?
After I moved to a rural area I basically created my own legacy scene at my LGS. Before no one was playing it but I asked the members if it was possible. Now I loan out all of my decks and I have gotten all of the modern players interested in building their own. They understand the uphill battle but I am more than willing to lend them decks and cards until they can get there. Several of them have started buying Forces and duals.
Also as a father of two who doesn't have too much spare time for MTG, I relish the opportunities I can play. Perhaps it would make sense to sell my collection and spend that time drafting instead. However, I look forward to the day in which I can teach my children how to play with the cards I have carefully collected over the years. Maybe they won't be interested but it's worth a shot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ESG
At least in Seattle, we've had a stream of Modern players join Legacy. This might be because there's a weekly Modern tournament held on the same night as a Legacy tournament, so people can walk around the room and see both formats in action. Also, a good number of people here play both formats and simply switch between the two based on their weekly preference. I met someone last night who plays mostly limited, and even he said he plays both Legacy and Modern. He simply plays decks he can port between the two formats.
I think the money argument is overstated. Beyond borrowing and sharing cards between formats, there are budget versions of almost everything. I saw someone playing Glacial Fortress a few nights ago instead of a fourth Tundra. He could have sat out Legacy until his deck was considered ideal, but why do that? The difference between three Tundras and four Tundras is much smaller than people make it out to be, and his list was arguably superior because it's better against Choke, which has been seen a lot here.
Most people can't jump into a new format immediately, but once the desire is there, they'll get there eventually. Not everyone needs Underground Seas and Tabernacles to play, and not everyone wants them.
Different locations make for different experiences. It's not all bad.
Re: The current state of Magic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
Mind that we talk a time period when I was able to buy Revised Mox Ruby & Mox Emerald for 160€, which pretty much equals a blue dual these days. We might face a similar problem Vintage had when Duals hit the the 300$.
I think somebody may have been peddling fake cards. :tongue:
In seriousness, the big difference here is that you don't need 9 blue duals to play a competitive deck. Vintage never really had viable budget options, except maybe Dredge.
The RL is a big problem for Legacy, but not to the extent that it was for Vintage. If nothing else, Legacy will dwindle much, much more slowly I think.
Re: The current state of Magic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dice_Box
The debate about if Legacy is better than Modern misses the point, I am sure we would all rather play Legacy than Modern. Modern though is the catchment and landing that Legacy once was. Gone are the days where you could buy a few hundred dollars of cards and port your Extended deck to Legacy. The role Legacy once played its now taken up by Modern.
Think about it this way. Your riding public transport for a year, you get sick of it and decide to buy a car. Now sure, that XR8 is better than the Honda Jazz your looking at but there is a 4 to one price difference and they are both going to do roughly the same job.
Think of that from a Standard players point of view, the choice basicly looks the same. Add to that difference priorities for newer players. Different wants. People dislike it when I Stax them out in Legacy but they accept it. It's a part of life. People actively hate me and make a point of letting me know that when I play Lantern in Modern. The player base has different levels of what they will accept. Now throw in a newer Standard player looking at that... Modern often looks more appealing.
I have not posted on the Source in a long time, but as many of you know, I've had a lot of investment in Modern over the years. But despite this investment, I totally agree with Dice here. Most Modern players would have gleefully played Legacy back when Modern was first announced. They just wanted a supported, non-rotating format which was relatively accessible and widely played at all tournament levels. If that had been Legacy, we would have been happy. Now that Modern is here, however, I don't believe many of those players would accept a shift to Legacy. Nor do I believe newer players interested in non-rotating sets will drift to Legacy when Modern is so prominent. Modern is currently the non-rotating way of the future just because of its sheer momentum, other pros and cons aside. As SCG, Wizards, Hareruya, CF, and other major tournament providers and product/content vendors have attested to, it is Modern that always draws the views, crowds, clicks, and conversation.
That said, I think Modern, Legacy, Vintage, and maybe even EDH/Pauper are imperiled by the direction suggested by Arena. We know that Wizards' staff have hinted at newer non-rotating formats, especially ones they have more market and metagame control over. Arena would be a clean starting point to that, as is already suggested by one of the FAQ entries on the Arena site. Sadly, Arena being a clean starting point for a new format would be a messy declining point for lots of other things: Modern, Legacy, non-rotating/eternal formats generally, MTGO, secondary market influence, etc. This isn't to say these things will abruptly go extinct. Rather, they will gradually fade away simultaneously, as most of them are connected in some way. This may be a good long-term business move for Hasbro and Wizards, but it will hurt players like those on this forum and others (i.e. knowledgeable, enfranchised Magic veterans).
All of this is independent of the relatively trivial Modern vs. Legacy debate. This is a more existential threat to the Magic reality most of us know. And again, I'm not saying this is going to be some instant apocalypse that happens over night. This is just another slip down a slope that leads to major changes for all players like us.
Re: The current state of Magic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Crimhead
I think somebody may have been peddling fake cards. :tongue:
Classic brainfart. Of course Unlimited. :p
Re: The current state of Magic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ktkenshinx
That said, I think Modern, Legacy, Vintage, and maybe even EDH/Pauper are imperiled by the direction suggested by Arena. We know that Wizards' staff have hinted at newer non-rotating formats, especially ones they have more market and metagame control over. Arena would be a clean starting point to that, as is already suggested by one of the FAQ entries on the Arena site. Sadly, Arena being a clean starting point for a new format would be a messy declining point for lots of other things: Modern, Legacy, non-rotating/eternal formats generally, MTGO, secondary market influence, etc. This isn't to say these things will abruptly go extinct. Rather, they will gradually fade away simultaneously, as most of them are connected in some way. This may be a good long-term business move for Hasbro and Wizards, but it will hurt players like those on this forum and others (i.e. knowledgeable, enfranchised Magic veterans).
All of this is independent of the relatively trivial Modern vs. Legacy debate. This is a more existential threat to the Magic reality most of us know. And again, I'm not saying this is going to be some instant apocalypse that happens over night. This is just another slip down a slope that leads to major changes for all players like us.
Are you talking about this?
Q. What happens when my cards rotate out of Standard?
A. The focus of MTG Arena will be on Standard card sets. We're working on fun ways for players to play with cards once they rotate out of Standard. We'll talk more about this later in the year.
I think this is more about trying not to bite off more than they can chew with Arena. They are trying a whole new economy, still working with a complex rules engine, trying to shed their reputation as a terrible digital company, etc. etc. Their goal seems to be to get some momentum behind Arena by hitting the ground running with what they can control, while they know they still have revenue streams from enfranchised players coming in via the paper and MTGO markets. They just need a minimum viable product for launch and Standard is plenty for that.
I don't think there's any conclusions worth drawing today. Honestly, if they wanted to make the most money they would stop printing paper cards and just hope to become a video game company.
Re: The current state of Magic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
maharis
Are you talking about this?
Q. What happens when my cards rotate out of Standard?
A. The focus of MTG Arena will be on Standard card sets. We're working on fun ways for players to play with cards once they rotate out of Standard. We'll talk more about this later in the year.
I think this is more about trying not to bite off more than they can chew with Arena. They are trying a whole new economy, still working with a complex rules engine, trying to shed their reputation as a terrible digital company, etc. etc. Their goal seems to be to get some momentum behind Arena by hitting the ground running with what they can control, while they know they still have revenue streams from enfranchised players coming in via the paper and MTGO markets. They just need a minimum viable product for launch and Standard is plenty for that.
I don't think there's any conclusions worth drawing today. Honestly, if they wanted to make the most money they would stop printing paper cards and just hope to become a video game company.
The whole thing looks like a disaster in the making. They're trying to rip off Hearthstone, but have no idea what the hell they're doing. The current business model looks abyssal if you're planning to play Constructed on Arena and the secrecy behind the numbers for the Vault/wild cards should be a clear warning sign. Whenever WotC tries to hide that kind of stuff, expect it to be FUBAR.
Re: The current state of Magic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
maharis
Are you talking about this?
Q. What happens when my cards rotate out of Standard?
A. The focus of MTG Arena will be on Standard card sets. We're working on fun ways for players to play with cards once they rotate out of Standard. We'll talk more about this later in the year.
I think this is more about trying not to bite off more than they can chew with Arena. They are trying a whole new economy, still working with a complex rules engine, trying to shed their reputation as a terrible digital company, etc. etc. Their goal seems to be to get some momentum behind Arena by hitting the ground running with what they can control, while they know they still have revenue streams from enfranchised players coming in via the paper and MTGO markets. They just need a minimum viable product for launch and Standard is plenty for that.
I don't think there's any conclusions worth drawing today. Honestly, if they wanted to make the most money they would stop printing paper cards and just hope to become a video game company.
When one reads a quote like that, there are far more negative conclusions we can draw than positive ones. Modern (let alone Legacy/Vintage/EDH/etc.) discussion is conspicuously absent from all the Wizards-generated Arena content. That really worries me. It is especially worrisome in light of quotes like the one in the FAQ. Arena is clearly Wizards' big play, and we should not be happy that existing non-rotating formats are conspicuously absent from that discussion. Standard certainly isn't. We see that word "Standard" in all kinds of Arena press. The other formats, however, are missing. It also seems very unlikely that Wizards will want to maintain and fund two products that do effectively the same thing. Their track record with that has been terrible, as we've seen many digital MTG games fall by the wayside.
The potential salvation of MTGO is that it remains profitable for Wizards despite Arena being the client of choice. Maybe it just doesn't require that much upkeep and its margins are pretty good. If that happened, we would still see MTGO as the non-rotating format client, even if Arena was all about Standard and Limited. MTGO would still soldier on and the non-rotating formats we enjoyed would stay viable for longer. This is definitely possible. But I think it's not very likely that Legacy, Modern, and other non-rotating formats currently feature prominently in Wizards' vision of Arena.
Re: The current state of Magic
I have talked about this to many people and I think that if the reserved list was abolished and Dual lands where reprinted at the rarity of masterpeices (or slightly less rare) in masters sets, they wouldnt kill the value, but it would open up a lot of ways to get new players.
Re: The current state of Magic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Barook
The whole thing looks like a disaster in the making. They're trying to rip off Hearthstone, but have no idea what the hell they're doing. The current business model looks abyssal if you're planning to play Constructed on Arena and the secrecy behind the numbers for the Vault/wild cards should be a clear warning sign. Whenever WotC tries to hide that kind of stuff, expect it to be FUBAR.
Its actually the opposite, Hearthstone ripped off Magic. They stole pretty much every concept from MTG.
Re: The current state of Magic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ye_old_storm_boy
I have talked about this to many people and I think that if the reserved list was abolished and Dual lands where reprinted at the rarity of masterpeices (or slightly less rare) in masters sets, they wouldnt kill the value, but it would open up a lot of ways to get new players.
They don't even need to abolish it. They can modify it to exclude the duals. It wouldn't be the first time cards were removed from the list (Sol Ring, etc), and it wouldn't be the first time duals were given a special exemption (old extended). There are a couple reasonsxwhy this might make sense right now:
1) Massive revenues at a time when Standard is on life support and they are keener than ever to sell Legacy staples in Masters sets.
2) It's a great way to squeeze money out of Modern players who already have their Modern Staples but would buy into Legacy if they could get duals for closer to $100 than $300 each.
I am predicting WotC comes up with a dual land solution of some sort for the 25th anniversary. Admittedly I am an optimist, so there's that I guess.
Re: The current state of Magic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ktkenshinx
When one reads a quote like that, there are far more negative conclusions we can draw than positive ones. Modern (let alone Legacy/Vintage/EDH/etc.) discussion is conspicuously absent from all the Wizards-generated Arena content. That really worries me. It is especially worrisome in light of quotes like the one in the FAQ. Arena is clearly Wizards' big play, and we should not be happy that existing non-rotating formats are conspicuously absent from that discussion. Standard certainly isn't. We see that word "Standard" in all kinds of Arena press. The other formats, however, are missing. It also seems very unlikely that Wizards will want to maintain and fund two products that do effectively the same thing. Their track record with that has been terrible, as we've seen many digital MTG games fall by the wayside.
The potential salvation of MTGO is that it remains profitable for Wizards despite Arena being the client of choice. Maybe it just doesn't require that much upkeep and its margins are pretty good. If that happened, we would still see MTGO as the non-rotating format client, even if Arena was all about Standard and Limited. MTGO would still soldier on and the non-rotating formats we enjoyed would stay viable for longer. This is definitely possible. But I think it's not very likely that Legacy, Modern, and other non-rotating formats currently feature prominently in Wizards' vision of Arena.
Modern easily rivals Standard in popularity now, but WotC can't push the format as much as it's popular because they can't monetize it properly. And the current business model just isn't compatible with acquiring the cards for a Modern deck. That alone is going to cause massive problems for Arena in the near future, at latest once the first rotation kicks in. But Arena isn't allowed to fail because Hasbro pumped millions into the project to get those sweet Hearthstone bucks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
porcupinetreeman
Its actually the opposite, Hearthstone ripped off Magic. They stole pretty much every concept from MTG.
No arguing with that. WotC still stole the entire way of presentation/UI after having over 15 years to get their shit together. Just look at the garbage fire they call a UI that is MTGO V4.
Re: The current state of Magic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Crimhead
They don't even need to abolish it. They can modify it to exclude the duals.
~snip~
I am predicting WotC comes up with a dual land solution of some sort for the 25th anniversary. Admittedly I am an optimist, so there's that I guess.
They won't meddle with the reserved list. They stated that many times pretty clearly and double downed with the "spirit of the RL" crap ruling out "snow Duals" as well.
WOTC has a very comfortable position of just letting Legacy/Vintage die in favor of a more profitable Modern format, while claiming their hands are tied to do anything against that, pointing to the strawmen of "collectors" and "integrity".
The last but mayor issue is that WOTC has an unhealthy relation with the big vendors handing them insider Infos for years to fuel their profits in exchange for running their official events. WOTC will not crash the value of the stores stock of cards by suddenly abolishing the RL and printing new Duals.
Re: The current state of Magic
I would bet you good money all the major vendors want that list gone. It offers more money long term to sell 20 cards at 40 dollars compared to one card at 300.
Re: The current state of Magic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dice_Box
I would bet you good money all the major vendors want that list gone. It offers more money long term to sell 20 cards at 40 dollars compared to one card at 300.
Of course, but only after CF & Co doing a sellout of their Legacy stock :p
Re: The current state of Magic
I recently met with one of the wotc employees (one of the people who designs the cards, I won't say who in case he wants to be anonymous but he didn't say this was confidential info that I couldn't repeat anywhere). He was very keen to answer questions on any aspect of what they do at wizards so I asked him about the RL.
What he said was:
- Basically every single person at WotC would gladly abolish the reserved list if they were allowed to, because:
a) Some kind of masters set or any product with RL cards in it would obviously be very popular (not only for people interested in Legacy/Vintage but also for commander players)
b) The RL restricts their ability to design new sets, for example they are simply not allowed to print basic limited fillers like '1WW 2/2 Flying First Strike' (While a lot of the cards on the reserved list are pretty weird and unique there are several straightforward cards like this that are reserved, e.g. Aeolipile).
He seemed surprisingly emphatic about the second point but I guess he's passionate about game design, employed to make new sets and everything else is a secondary concern for him.
The reason he gave for why WotC doesn't print cards on the RL is that:
a) Their legal staff (apparently different people that have been employed separately by WotC and Hasbro have looked at it) say that it would open them up to litigation
b) The last time they used the promo loophole (with Karn/Negator) somebody did actually try to sue them
I don't honestly think there is some grand conspiracy to phase out eternal formats but it seems like they are just doomed to die at some point unless the law changes.
Re: The current state of Magic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kombatkiwi
I recently met with one of the wotc employees (one of the people who designs the cards, I won't say who in case he wants to be anonymous but he didn't say this was confidential info that I couldn't repeat anywhere). He was very keen to answer questions on any aspect of what they do at wizards so I asked him about the RL.
What he said was:
- Basically every single person at WotC would gladly abolish the reserved list if they were allowed to, because:
a) Some kind of masters set or any product with RL cards in it would obviously be very popular (not only for people interested in Legacy/Vintage but also for commander players)
b) The RL restricts their ability to design new sets, for example they are simply not allowed to print basic limited fillers like '1WW 2/2 Flying First Strike' (While a lot of the cards on the reserved list are pretty weird and unique there are several straightforward cards like this that are reserved, e.g. Aeolipile).
He seemed surprisingly emphatic about the second point but I guess he's passionate about game design, employed to make new sets and everything else is a secondary concern for him.
The reason he gave for why WotC doesn't print cards on the RL is that:
a) Their legal staff (apparently different people that have been employed separately by WotC and Hasbro have looked at it) say that it would open them up to litigation
b) The last time they used the promo loophole (with Karn/Negator) somebody did actually try to sue them
I don't honestly think there is some grand conspiracy to phase out eternal formats but it seems like they are just doomed to die at some point unless the law changes.
They could print something like
Quote:
Thundersaurus :1::w::w:
Creature - Dinosaur
Flying, first strike
2/2
and it would be functionally different. This whole "Spirit of the Reserve List" is quite frankly horseshit, unless they had to sign some secret NDA in the wake of a ligation that doesn't allow them to print cards that are somewhat similiar or better.
They could easily print something like
Quote:
"Commander Tundra"
Land - Plains Island
Whenever you cast your commander from your command zone, you gain 1 life.
But they choose not to. But then again, would we really want Neo-Duals on cardboard that self-destructs after contact with air like the current cards do? :really:
Re: The current state of Magic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kombatkiwi
basically every single person at WotC would gladly abolish the reserved list if they were allowed to
If they would they would not have double downed the RL in regards to functional reprints and promos which were previously fine. That's literally the strawman I talked about.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kombatkiwi
a) Their legal staff (apparently different people that have been employed separately by WotC and Hasbro have looked at it) say that it would open them up to litigation
b) The last time they used the promo loophole (with Karn/Negator) somebody did actually try to sue them.
It misses the important information that no one suceeded to actually file a case because there is no way to proof how the promo loophole (or an abolishment of the list itself) would damage them, which is mandatory.
Edit:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Barook
This whole "Spirit of the Reserve List" is quite frankly horseshit, unless they had to sign some secret NDA in the wake of a ligation that doesn't allow them to print cards that are somewhat similiar or better.
Just this. There is no legal restriction preventing them to print "snow duals" at all. They just choose to do not and justify it with the "spirit of the RL" nonsense. No one forced them to double down the RL list, but they did so themselves
Re: The current state of Magic
Quote:
somebody did actually try to sue them
I wonder how far this got. Because I would love to see those filings.
Re: The current state of Magic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dice_Box
I wonder how far this got. Because I would love to see those filings.
I bet it didn't make it beyond the status "angry tweet"
Re: The current state of Magic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
I bet it didn't make it beyond the status "angry tweet"
No, there are actual big money investors in M:TG cards weirdly enough. Those guys have $$ and LOVE teh RL. They would absolutely sue because they have such an absurd $$ amount of cardstock that's only valuable because of RL.
