Well, the fact is that an unknown opponent is most likely to be playing either Thresh, Landstill, or Lands! variants, and all three of those are gutpunched by Leyline. So it is in fact +EV against a random opponent.
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Well, the fact is that an unknown opponent is most likely to be playing either Thresh, Landstill, or Lands! variants, and all three of those are gutpunched by Leyline. So it is in fact +EV against a random opponent.
Explain your math, because while you're defending my side of the argument, I have no idea why you think a random opponent is most likely to be playing one of those three decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias
Threshold is probably beyond any doubt the most common deck in the format right now, and therefore the more we can crush it, the better. But I'm not sure Landstill is second and I'm not sure Lands! is even in the top ten. And I also question the assertion that Landstill is "gut-punched" by Leyline. It's a minor nuisance, sure, but Leyline doesn't affect Landstill with nearly the degree it affects Threshold and Loam decks.
My main question is, does Sui even have a chance of getting to top 8 without attempting to seriously hate Thresh? Thresh and Breakfast are just more powerful decks. Playing Sui at a large tourney seems pretty risky either way, because of its ability to lose to random decks. It feels very powerful, but just not quite there. Also another thing I have been wondering, how much has the addition of ThoughtSeize add to Sui's power? We have had sometime to play with it now, and those even luckier got to do some serious testing. How has Thought Seize been affecting our MU's? It definitely gives us a stronger game against Breakfast and Goblins.
I feel Sui metagamed right can bring home the bacon. I guess this is directed to the more experienced posters, but do you feel Sui= Just a fun deck, or Sui= See you in the finals!
Well, i only say that those decks are going to be the most common because those are the "best decks" in the format. Therefore, a good opponent will most likely be playing one of those decks. Since we should be most concenrend with beating the good players, Leyline is good. Of course, there will be other decks, and that is what the side is for. For instance, against TES/CRET Belcher you can go +4 Chalice, -4 Leyline, etc.
Oh, did I say Landstill? I meant Breakfast, which dies a horrible G1 death. Not so much Landstill, but I've seen some lists with ~6 win cons, and not being able to recur them is bad times for them.
@ Tacosnape - I like your arguments for Leyline of the Void over Planar Void. And you've convinced me to run Leyline over Planar... in my sideboard :).
I agree with much of your analysis regarding Sinkhole. I think in your build, it has no place for the basic reasons stated. In my build, which incorporates chrome mox and ritual, which means I am almost always on the initiative, I think it does have a place. Not to mention a first turn Sinkhole is sexy if you aren't able to lay down a creature first turn. However, I don't run Snuff Out, though it would be the first removal spell I do include. Regardless I think Sinkhole retains its position in builds with creature bases more akin to Red Death.
I'm surprised you dislike Yixlid Jailer so much. You were at one point considering Withering Wretch if I'm not mistaken. Wretch is better against Goyf and a few other decks, but I would say Yixlid Jailer is the better GY hate with a body. I still think that Jailer having a body makes up for his deficieny in casting cost, and less relevant effect over the graveyard.
I was considering Wretch in an exclusively zombie build of sui-black, and I wanted it more for the ability to become a fattie and shrink a Tarmogoyf than to be legitimate yard hate. However, in hindsight, even with that considered, Jailer might have been the better choice despite its lower toughness. So yes, I will completely agree with the statement that Yixlid Jailer is better than Withered Wretch.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galroth
I just don't like Jailer's fragility. I don't like 2/1 guys to be my Jitte carriers unless they have some form of way to not die in the exchange with any 1/1 creature. Jailer can't really swing into just anything, where the rest of my 2-drops can swing into a lot.
Jailer can carry a Jitte, yes, but in games where I can't keep one of my 18 threats on the board, I don't usually need Jitte (The exceptions is Goblins, and Pyrokinesis owns Yixlid Jailer worse than my other creatures anyway.)
I suppose he might be worth testing in a pinch. I'm not certain I wouldn't ever run him. But he just doesn't seem to pack quite enough punch for me.
EDIT: Has anyone, and I mean anyone, run Chains of Mephistopheles in sideboard at any point? I sort of want to try them in my missing sideboard slot due to getting consistently steamrolled by Landstill and struggling against Solidarity, but I wanted to know if anyone had familiarity with it before I go hunt a trio of them up.
My original list running the 8cc zombies didn't include anysort of graveyard hate. In place of Yixlid Jailer I was running Hypnotic Specter. Kinda makes the discard elements of the deck go over the top. But it really crushes alot of control in this manner. Of course there is always the turn 1 ritual specter play adding to the number of broken plays suicide black can have. I was also running Swords of Fire and Ice which really likes the evasion granted by specter. Ultimately creatures outside of the 8cc zombies, shade and atleast 4 other pumpables seem metagame slots. How many times is the pro-white coming in handy for you Taco? I can think of a number of possible options which could arguably be on par for the last few slots. Yixlid Jailer, Specter, Confidant, Heck one might even get away with Negator.
@ LordEvilTeaCup
I really like the idea of incorporating Serum Powder into the sideboard. Suicide black has possibly the best hate cards in the game for this current meta. So the phrase "go big, or go home" seems to fit both with sui-blacks options and its general strategy also.
This brings me to question how important pithing needle is in the board. I've had no personal experience with it, mostly because I've never though landstill was that poor a match-up. Oh... and I don't see 43 lands. I'm assuming these two decks are the primary reason pithing needle sees play, though it retains many uses in so many decks I'd rather not recount them all. However, is it strong enough to sideboard in against other decks over what suiblack has mainboarded? Taco that's a question for you and anyone else with like experience.
Again, I really like that board plan for decks like Taco's. I'm not sure it would fit equally as well into other builds... though it might. I'll give it some thought.
Pithing Needle is ludicrously good. In fact, I think it's a reason to run Serum Powder. Some matches it's as strong as Plague or Dystopia.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galroth
It gives you a fighting chance against Landstill or anything with Deed where you have none otherwise. It also, as you said, rocks 43 Lands. And, in fact, it gets boarded in against every control deck, ever, period. Considering I maindeck Jitte, it's most commonly what goes out for Needle, as Jitte blows against control and Needle is amazing against it.
But it does so much more than that. It shuts off Survival. It shuts off Goblin Charbelcher. It shuts off Gempalm Incinerator and Mogg Fanatic and Aether Vial. Suicide Black has no real way to deal with artifacts or enchantments that work on activated abilities other than Needle.
It's also incredibly, incredibly easy to cast. Which is important.
EDIT: Oh, and the Pro-White guys rock, too. Ever see BGW Survival try to deal with a Stromgald Crusader? It can't.
The problem you run into is trying to do too many things at once. The more controlish build has a better game against control decks because it runs Hypnotic Specter, Sinkhole, and Phyrexian Negator. Seeing as that version of this deck was designed to beat control decks, it does it pretty well. Your version trades in that good control matchup for a stronger aggro matchup. It all depends on the metagame, and Goblins could still come back strong. I don't think there is a way to make Suicide Black equally good against everything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
First of all, speaking as an avid 4C Landstill player, I can tell you that no build of Suicide Black has a favorable matchup against 4C Landstill, Wastelands, Sinkholes, and all. Granted, Sinkhole/Wasteland can randomly steal quite a fair number of games, especially when Landstill is trying to get to that third land for Pernicious Deed, but if I get a single Standstill broken in my favor, I'll win 95% of the games from that point forward. Also, -any- build of Sui Black can steamroll Landstill with random aggression and disruption. I lost to my own build in a tournament that I'd lent to someone when he went Ritual/Sarcomancy/Sarcomancy/Carnophage, then followed with Shade, then followed with Hymns on turn 3 and 4. Similarly, I've lost to Red Death when it turn one'd a Negator and a Rotting Giant, then Sinkholed two lands of mine in a row. So while I respect the ability of a Sinkhole/Wasteland version to beat a control deck by never getting it to stabilize, I am of the opinion that its ability to do so is only slightly stronger than a build packing heavier discard and pro-white guys.Quote:
Originally Posted by Baumeister
That said, there's no reason I shouldn't attempt to improve my build's control matchup. Four Pithing Needles helps, as does the fact that Landstill sometimes struggles to deal with Stromgald Crusader, but even all this isn't quite enough, it seems. So I was wondering if Chains of Mephistopheles might be a strong swing in the right direction. I can't help but think that without a Needle it'll just get blown up, though.
Eh, Taco? You haven't posted a list in this topic perchance, have you? T'would appreciate it if I saw your build.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
It's a few pages back. Here it is, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDarkshineKnight
18 Swamp
4 Dark Ritual
4 Carnophage
4 Sarcomancy
4 Nantuko Shade
2 Order of the Ebon Hand
2 Stromgald Crusader
2 Hand of Cruelty (This might get cut for more Pump/Jump knights.)
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
SB:
4 Engineered Plague
4 Dystopia
4 Pithing Needle
3 ??? (Confidant, Chains, Serum Powder, Cabal Therapy, Tsabo's Web, or something.)
I was just pointing out the subtle nuances between the builds. I do realize that any Suicide Black deck can randomly crush Landstill off a good draw, but the builds with Sinkhole, Specter, Wasteland, etc. tend to do it more often because they can keep the Landstill player off balance to beat down enough. I agree with you, though, that a resolved Standstill can give you the leverage you need to win the match. It's just that Suicide has a lot of answers to the mana development and card advantage of a control deck. If I play Landstill (especially 4-color Landstill), neither deck is going to have an easy time winning. I like your build a lot, and I would run it if I didn't like the power of Sinkhole and Wasteland in Anwar's version of this deck so much. I almost think that that build should be classified as a different deck because it plays differently than traditional Suicide Black.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
I couldn't agree with Baumeister more. These two variants of suicide black are more dissimilar from each other than UGr and UGw Thresh. I would call for a new thread to separate the matter, however suicide black does not share the popularity or the tournament success of Threshold, so keeping all variants in a single thread is reasonable to me.
I'm actually surprised 4c Landstill is claimed to have a favorable matchup against suicide black builds which incorporate sinkhole, wasteland, hypnotic specter, negator and confidant. While I have no statistical evidence, my own experience has been quite the opposite. 4c Landstill is one of my better matchups and not one I worry about or even sideboard for. Other variants of Landstill are harder to go against, and while I haven't played against 43lands yet, I hear that's a whole other story. I know my deck is better suited than most to handle combo and control, but I would be surprised if there is that much difference. I'd like to hear about others experience as well.
EDIT: I did have a chance to test Chains of Meph out on MWS a few times. I was... unimpressed. Partly this is because I just found that so many other cards were worth the sideboard space over Chains. Ultimately though, I wouldn't even consider purchasing a card I'm on the fence about using for the price of Chains of Meph. Really, there is so much better worth sideboarding. If control is a serious matter, I think Pithing Needle is probably a good choice, though I have very little experience with that. I tend to board in Smallpox to compliment my other disruption against control; even then I only run 2 copies. I just view control as the least of my worries for boarding. GY hate, Thresh hate, Goblin hate, and generic aggro hate all take priority in my board before Chains.
Though in retrospect I still haven't picked up a set of Thoughtseizes yet. So I should probably shut up about the price as a concern.
The problem you face is against people who know what they're doing. I believe that Tacosnape can have a winnable matchup against my build of Suicide Black because he knows how to play the deck well (I'm assuming here). 4-color Landstill can have some extremely unfair draws which can shut down any deck. That comes at the cost of a fragile mana base to reach across those four colors for the best removal/counterspells/board control in the game. In order to make Landstill work affectively, it needs a good pilot. Good players playing the right cards at the right time can make the Landstill/Suicide matchup a pain in the butt for both players.
I have been thinking about Chrome Mox lately... I am dead set on using Snuff Out now, so I can no longer play my cute little eat me zombies. Darn you Galroth!
My creature base now has 4 open slots...
4 Hyppie
4 Bob
4 ....
3 Shade
3 Gator
Any suggestions? I could add another Shade or Gator, but I feel pretty comfortable with both amounts. I will most likely do a 2/2 split of something. There are the pump/jump creatures with pro white, rotting giant, and I am sure a few other options. The thing I like about Hand of Cruelty is he takes up less of your mana that would be pumping into your Shade. I am thinking of 2 Stromgald Crusader/Order of the Ebon Hand and 2 Hand of Cruelty or 2 Rotting.
My creature base is very similar:
4x Hyppie
4x Bob
3x ...
3x Shade
4x Gator
One more gator one less... well, I use it as a metagame slot. Currently it's Yixlid Jailer; it used to be Plague Spitter when gobbos were more prevalent. I spend alot of time searching for that last perfect creature, and I can never seem to find it. (Incidentally this is the exact reason I came across Toshiro Umezawa which I posted about in the Red Death thread last night.) Sometimes I think that maybe I can up my shade count by 1 and add two 4cc fatties to the deck. Something like Grinning Demon for instance. But I haven't found any 4cc bombs that scream use me. The knights and giant just haven't cut it for me. They're good, but not great and obviously the worst cards in the deck. I generally figure I'll just try to use the remaining slots to hose whatever field I'm up against, i.e. metagame the slots.
I've been really satisfied with 18x creatures in my build. Red Death can get away with 16x because of the additional burn they pack. But I think suicide black wants a full 18. I do like the 4th Gator however. He and shade are still the fastest beats you have. Chrome Mox helps fuel him out early, or you can always pitch him to the Mox if you don't want to see him.
Reasons to use chrome mox: First turn bob, first turn sinkhole - great disruption followed by 2nd turn specter or negator. These kinds of plays, which are actually pretty common with 4x Ritual and 3x Chrome Mox are exactly what suicide black needs to win games. They're very comparable to the 2nd turn ritual equip jitte of the 1cc zombie builds. Except usually you get to use a piece of disruption to clear the path for your beater; and the plays are a little more common. This is basically the reason I like the more traditional suicide black builds over stark's 1cc zombie and pumpables list. As a last note, sometimes I think Chrome Mox is even better than Dark Ritual because it allows for multiple turns of acceleration. Then I remember how insane Dark Ritual is. Chrome Mox isn't far behind though.
Hmmm, yes I like the idea of adding a 4th Gator. Same could be said of shade to. If I see one to many multiples, its Pitchin' Time! I do agree there needs to be a new black creature on the block. I don't think Oona's Prowler is the answer either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galroth
Barook in the Red Death thread, suggested Shriekmaw and I think it warrants some thought. I am pretty sure the answer is no, but the maw is pretty intriguing. Toshiro would be interesting with a build that uses more instants and he could potential recur some Dark Rituals and Smothers.
The problem is that Bob is engfeh with Snuff out and other pitch cards.
Bob is not bad in a deck that pitches stuff, because he keeps on grabbing your more cards. Bob and Snuff Out don't get a long, but its manageable... barely. Still, Snuff Out has too many synergies in my build to not use it. I don't have the two mana to spare for snuff out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias
Chrome Mox is also not so bad late game here, because by then we have dead discard cards in our hand.