@ Gocho
I run into very few problems converting mana. Cantor and Morphose directly convert mana, Land Grant gives you flexibility in whether you need to start off with black or red, there are enough black spells to make Chrome Mox an easy fixer for either red or black, and Lotus Petal obviously helps enable either or.Quote:
- You can't convert Black mana in Red mana. When your mana sources are only Lotus petal or Land Grant, Dark Ritual and the expensive red spells you can't chain the spells to produce mana. If you can't find a Petal and only have SSG and no mana-fixers you can't play Black Rituals. I took a lot of Mulligans because that. There aren't a black mana-fixer? Green and Red mana can be fixed, Black mana can't.
Some hands require to be mulliganed, no differently than any other version of Belcher. My 1st turn combo win chances with the deck, without fizzling, are very high and very consistent, so I'm not sure where you're running into issues.
How can green and red be fixed but black cannot? This deck runs a ton of red sources and ways to cast red sources, and enough ways to convert those sources. I'm not running into issues with this, I'm not sure why you are.
I don't think Tinder wall is a must have. I'm not denying that it is a good mana accelerant, but it requires green mana, and I feel that the deck is better off sticking to a R/b base. Dark Ritual is the best ritual in the game, and gearing the deck to be able to consistently cast Dark Rituals sets it up for more frequent turn 1 wins.Quote:
- Tinder Wall is a must have because it's flexible. It gives only +1 mana but it's RED mana. You need more cheap mana cards because you can't chain Dark or Cabal Rituals with expensive Red Rituals. You need a G to play it, but the same cards that give you B to play Dark Ritual can give you G to play Tinder (Land Grant, Lotus Petal, mana-fixers and Chrome Mox).
Cabal Ritual is just a filler accelerant, because the deck cuts out green for black. ESG could replace Cabal since they both provide +1 (net) and ESG doesn't require an initial investment, but Cabal being black is important for the the black spell count for Chrome Mox, IMO. That, and Cabal adds to the spell count, which is relevant when I have to go with a Burning Wish win.Quote:
- I don't like Cabal Ritual. You get BBB for BR, and then you can't get R to continue chaining spells. I rarely have Threshold and if I get it, I have enough mana and don't need more. You can't play it without a mana-fixer or Dark Ritual and in both cases you can play Spoils without play Cabal. I'll put Tinder Wall in this slot. You can play Lotus Petal (G)-> Tinder (RR) -> Mana-Fixer (RB) -> Dark Ritual (RBBB) -> Desperate Ritual (BBRRR)or Setthing Song (BRRRRR)-> Belcher(B or BR) -> Spoils for LED. But can't DO it if the Tinder was a Cabal.
Yes, Spoils is the best card in the deck. Very flexible, never a dead card (even in multiples, sometimes). Makes having a hand of Goblin Charbelcher and Spoils better than a hand of Goblin Charbelcher and Empty the Warrens, or a hand of Burning Wish and Spoils better than a hand of Burning Wish and Empty the Warrens, for example(s).Quote:
- Spoils it's great and a must have. You would die for it (never in my 30 test games), but you can win with only 5 manas + Charbelcher + Spoils if you look for LED. If you get FOWed, getting 5 manas another time it's very easy with this deck.
The thing about Chrome Mox though, is that it's a permanent mana source. I know the 2-for-1 is bad, and maybe I should test around with cutting it for ESG, but being permanent means that if I cannot cast + activate Belcher this turn, I have a greater consistency to activate it next turn. That, and it can provide either red or black to start my chain off, whereas ESG being green won't start my chain off without another 0 investment accelerant or a Wild Cantor.Quote:
- Chrome Mox is terrible. Two cards for a single mana? When I played it I always need a second turn to activate Belcher. ESG would be better used only for colorless costs. His green mana can be fixed, black mana can't. And protect you vs Chalice at 0.
But there are plenty of black fixers...? We have ways of generating early R with SSG, Petal, Mox, and Land Grant. Once we generate an early red, we can convert it into black with a number of spells like Cantor, Morphose, Petal, Mox, and Land Grant. Like I said, I've not been having serious issues with converting the mana, honestly.Quote:
My suggestions until we find a Black Fixer (untested):
-4 Chrome Mox, -4 Cabal Ritual
+4 Elvih Spirit Guide, +4 Tinder Wall
@ surly
If you've read why I initially tried it, it's because the guy who beat my Counterbalance control deck used them. Wild Cantor is clearly better, and so I've switched.Quote:
*BoP... 3 words - are you serious I mean... really... even Cantor isn't the best choices, and BoP is even worse.
I don't win with Spoils/Belcher alone. I also run 2 Burning Wish MD, with a 1/1 split of EtW/Tendrils in the SB. If you're that concerned with the amount of kill spells ran, 1 Cabal Ritual can easily be dropped for 1 more Burning Wish, giving the deck a 4/4/3 Belcher/Spoils/Wish, which is the same number of kill spells ran in traditional R/g Belcher.Quote:
*cutting ETW: I honestly can't imagine this deck working without that card MD. Sure, it's not the most consistant way of winning and really fragile, but nevertheless - you simply can't constantly win with Belcher+Spoils all alone, so there has to be another option. Otherwise you'll loose too many games due heavy mulling.
Or, you can have Spoils/Belcher for mana heavy hands and just win with a Belcher + activation.Quote:
*reducing the BW count: same as above, beside ETW it fetches Diminishing Return, which becomes a really strong card in combination with mana-heavy hands.
I think Seething Song is a mandatory 4-of, because it and Dark Ritual are the only two rituals that add +2 (net) mana; every other accelerant is only +1 (net) (with the exception of a thresh'd Cabal Ritual). Everything else is debatable, but I don't value Tinder Wall very highly in my R/b deck because it costs green to be cast in the first place, whereas the deck wants to be generating red or black instead, and the red that Tinder Wall provides doesn't really matter since the deck runs an assload of red accelerants already. It's basically just a 1 mana invest +1 (net) accelerant, which is very good, but easily replaceable, IMO.Quote:
*Tinder Wall: after playing about 1k games with my Belcher list (playing that deck since 3 years now in some casual rounds ) I would sort all mana producing spells this way: LED/DarkRit/Petal > Rite of Flame/Land Grant > SSG/ESG/Tinder Wall > Seething Song > Mox/Desperate
....to summarize, before I would reduce the number of Tinder Walls I would cut Seething Songs, Desperate Rituals and reduce the number of Moxen down too 3.
