[Deck] Ichorid

Also, Thresh will not have a Stifle every time you reanimate a Ichorid. They might remove one or two Bridges as they trade their Mongoose vs Ichorids but that's not so relevant. Next turn you just reanimate them again, dredge into some evasive narcomoebas and just beat down. You may also therapy them to hell, as Therapy is a monster in this MU.

I want to take this deck to the Belgium National Tournament (how do you call that in English?), cause the Meta there is full of Loam decks and also a lot of ***** (and maybe Pikula, MonoB).

What do you guys think what the best Fatty will be in the Sb in a Meta like that, one of the Akroma's ore something as a Simic Sky Swallower? Maybe something that gives more Protection, as Platinum Angel or Blazing Archon?


And what matchups are less good? Cause I havent tested the deck against many others..


Mvg

@dlevsApiJ :When i was using a creature to reanimate in my sideboard, i liked Simic Sky Swallower(Big one with shroud,immune to STP and lots of removal) , Platinum Angel (Ass-saver versus Combo and may auto-win if unanswered) and Blazing Archon (4 Turn Clock and keeps goyfs and other shit at bay)

As promised, here's my report:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...967#post188967

That was tottaly awesome. Congratulations

Did Brainstorm make a difference at all?

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Originally Posted by BreathWeapon

LED is a huge, huge, huge card even with out DA, LED combos with Breakthrough, LED combos with Careful Study, LED combos with Cephalid Coliseum and LED even discards your entire hand by itself for 0 mana.

After using LED in Vintage Ichorid, what I noticed was the best hand that deck draws is Bazaar of Baghdad, Dredgers and LED. The LED puts the Dredgers in position to be Dredged on the first turn, which leads to either a turn one or turn two win 99% of the time.

DA is, in essence, a bad Careful Study on the play. You're best play is to cast either one of them before or after LED, but DA is useless with out LED where Careful Study is effective. What you want is to maximize your Breakthrough + LED, Careful Study + LED or Cephalid Coliseum + LED plays and then run just enough DA in order to spend the remaining UU and Dredge a second time.

What I found was that Dredge was built on a bad premise, we took Manaless Ichorid and kept the original engine with out questioning whether or not the original engine was superior to draw spell + LED, and it turns out that it isn't, because people aren't drawing after the coin flip, and relying on being on the draw to maximize your speed is dubious for a number of very obvious reasons.

I have to admit tho', I have been looking at 4 Breakthrough, 4 Careful Study and 4 Deep Analysis, removing Putrid Imp for Nether Shadow and removing Gemstone Mine for Deep Analysis. The idea is that adding Careful Study A) increases/maintains outlets B) consolidates mana costs into U C) reduces the need for lands D) supports Force of Will in the SB and Putrid Imps function is replaced by EOT discard/dredge and increased threat density from Nether Shadow when it matters the most, game 2 on the draw where the opponent elects to go first in order to drop Tormod's Crypt.

It's 100% experimental, but I think it goes to show you that there are a lot of things we've taken for granted, and Dredge is not set in stone.

4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug

4 Cabal Therapy

4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Narcomoeba

4 Bridge from Below
2 Dread Return
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame Kin Zealot

Note: It's often 4 Dread Return because I hate Cephalid Sage and Flame Kin Zealot and Dread Return is superior in draw, discard, dredge mode.

4 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough
4 Deep Analysis

4 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass

It operates under the assumption that Putrid Imp is both A) too slow and B) worthless in the discard pile compared to Nether Shadow, which feeds Ichorid, recurs itself and is a permanent threat. It focuses on the fundamentals, the LED, Cephalid Coliseum and DA engine on the draw, the LED, Breakthrough or Careful Study and DA engine on the play and is superior in draw, discard and dredge mode thanks to Nether Shadow. You lose some consistency, like 2 lands for Cephalid Coliseum, one land for Breakthrough or Careful Study and one land for Cabal Therapy, but you also gain consistency in Careful Study, LED + DA at 4x and Nether Shadow.

I don't have enough practice with that list, but in theory, it's the farthest you can push the deck in terms of speed and the strongest you can make the deck in terms of draw, discard, dredge (sans Street Wraith).

Edit: I've also tried replacing City of Brass with Lotus Petal for hands of Cephalid Coliseum, Breakthrough and land, where I could Breakthrough on the first turn and then activate Cephalid Coliseum on the second turn with Lotus Petal or draw, discard, drege and then activate Cephalid Coliseum with Lotus Petal once Dredgers were in position, but you lose a lot of other plays as well, Careful Study and Breakthrough, 2xCareful Study, Cabal Therapy protection etc.

Don't get me wrong, I like Putrid Imp, and I love turn one Land, Putrid Imp pass. Dredge and then either Breakthrough, Careful Study or Cephalid Coliseum, but you have to run 12 lands just for Putrid Imp, albeit those 12 lands also support Breakthrough, Careful Study, Cephalid Coliseum, Deep Analysis, Cabal Therapy and the SB to an extent, but any cards that forces you to run lands in Dredge is bad.

I'm sure there is a medium for all of these concepts, but at the moment I don't have the time to come to a conclusion, and other people's opinions may differ on said conclusion. All I know for certain is that 4 Lion's Eye Diamond, 4 Cephalid Coliseum, 4 Breakthrough, 4 Careful Study and 1 DA is the starting point for the best possible Dredge deck, the rest is in 1+ DA, the land ratio and whether or not Putrid Imp and additional lands is worth 4- DA and Nether Shadow.

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Making the deck more combo-ish and faster with more draw and less PImp seems interesting, although this seems to me to make the deck VERY reliant on LED because DA, Coliseum, and sometimes Breakthrough really are bad without LED in that build. You could possibly add Serum Powder to find LED much like Vintage lists use it to find Bazaar, but im not sure this is worth it because always using LED forces you to go all out and be vulnerable to FoW on LED and GY hate postboard where Imp/Tribe would help you play around Crypt. Also, I dont think 8 lands is enough if you always want to see one, in extended I run 10 and still dont draw land sometimes, and your list really seems to want to cast things for U.

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Originally Posted by dlevsApiJ

And what matchups are less good? Cause I havent tested the deck against many others..

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Raffinity and Fastcombo aren't good MUs, Raffinity rapes you preboard, but postboard they have problems to handle the LotV. Fastcombo in general and Belcher special are nearly Autoloss.
Gobo is preboard~45-50%, postboard maybe a bit better or not, depends on the draw I would guess, they have an amazing Start with Land, Fanatic go, and they have enough things to handle your bridges, and the beatdown don't work so if they know what you are playing it may be a little bit more difficult.
Landstill(2c) and *****/Grow are nearly the best MUs~70-75%, the MU against some Roguedecks depends of the skill of your opponents.

And I would run the Angel in the SB, the next option I would play are Homura or the Blazing Archon for BD, and during my last testings Homura was realy good, who can take 10-15 damage every turn just by Ichorid?

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Originally Posted by myselves

And I would run the Angel in the SB

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Which angel? There are 3 I talked about ;P

@dlevsApiJ : I think he's talking about Platinum Angel
@myselves:if you liked homura,why don't use silver seraph in it's place?
He beats for 6 in the air,doesn't need to die to be useful and his ability gives +2/+2 anyway with threshold,what should not be difficult to acquire with this deck :P

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Originally Posted by Xurcks

@dlevsApiJ : I think he's talking about Platinum Angel
@myselves:if you liked homura,why don't use silver seraph in it's place?
He beats for 6 in the air,doesn't need to die to be useful and his ability gives +2/+2 anyway with threshold,what should not be difficult to acquire with this deck :P

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Yes I do, sry, but I thought you would understand.
I play Homura, because:
1) it gives your Token and Ichorid Evasion.
2) you can sacc it for more token and to get another creature back, and you have no problem to kill you own creatures, trust me.

This are things that Seraph can't do.

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Originally Posted by dlevsApiJ

Which angel? There are 3 I talked about ;P

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Platin Angel
Artifact Creature - Angel 4/4, 7 (7)
Flying.
You can't lose the game and your opponents can't win the game.

Played for buying turns against Combo and against random aggro. I still wouldn't waste a sideboard slot on him as if you hit both a 1off and one out of 2-3 Dread Returns, you're probably in such a good shape against combo that you could just rape his hand with multiple Cabal Therpies and swing in for the win now or next turn.
He's near to useless against random aggro too as I board out the Dread Return package to have room for Leyline of the Void/Chalice of the Void and Chain of Vapor.

This is my board which serves me well:

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chain of Vapor
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revelation


Leyline of the Void comes in against any fast deck (red based aggro, goblins etc) that can race a bad hand of yours and disrupt your Bridges by sending their creatures to the graveyard (with stuff like Mogg Fanatic or via directing a burn spell at them). It is also gold in the mirror and against some more exotic decks like Cephalid Breakfast or Iggy Pop.
Ancient Grudge is there to fight Tormod's Crypt while being able to continue Dredging. It is also brought in against troublesome Artifacts such as Ensnaring Bridge, Umezawa's Jitte or Sword of Fire and Ice, Engineered Explosives etc.
Ray of Revelation is mainly there to kill oposing Engineered Plagues (naming Zombies or Horror) as it is too slow to remove a Leyline of the Void (you seldomly have more than 1 mana). It is also brought in against random stuff like Moat, Humility or Planar Void.
Chalice of the Void is your swiss-knife. It is multi purpose shutting off any Tormod's Crypts or Engineered Explosives for a mehre 0 mana while still being able to kill Extirpate and slow your aggro-control opponents down significantly at 2 mana. It is also brought in against any storm combo and played at 0 (depriving them off their fast mana) to slow them down enough to disrupt and kill them.
Chain of Vapor is just general awesomness and comes always in against the hate your opponent might have.

Other cool tech if you expect a creature heavy metagame:
Firestorm which acts as a discard outlet and a board sweeper all in one.

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Originally Posted by Der_imaginäre_Freund

Other cool tech if you expect a creature heavy metagame:
Firestorm which acts as a discard outlet and a board sweeper all in one.

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I've played the same SB on my last tournament, the Chalice is just useful in a Meta dominated by Fastcombo, but I woul run it, anyway, the only problem is, that you haven't the Slot for the Angel. Which could be missed in some MUs.
I've tested Firestorm instead of PImp, but it's just great against Jailer, PImp always will have the advantage, that it could 'feed' Ichorid.

I dont know why everyone is discussing all of these unneccessary big creatures for the SB, the optimal SB is probably the one Der imaginare Freund posted, except mine is 2 Ray 1 Grudge, and possibly Needle instead of Chalice, depending on personal preference and meta.

Also, Firestorm is awful because all of the targets need to unique so turn 1 you could probably only lose 2 cards to it and have to shoot urself, its def worse than Tireless Tribe (dont laugh, he works in Extended anyway) and maybe even One With Nothing /shiver.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by myselves

@Homura

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I play this guy since about one month and took my version to the last Iserlohn-tournament. He was pretty awesome. He really won me games that were unwinable without him.

This was the list I played, but I just went 4-3-0 :( :

// Lands
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
4 [AN] City of Brass

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
3 [TO] Ichorid
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
4 [RAV] Golgari Thug
1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot
2 [TO] Cephalid Sage
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
1 [SOK] Homura, Human Ascendant

// Spells
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [TSP] Dread Return
4 [TO] Breakthrough
2 [TO] Deep Analysis

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 2 [JU] Ray of Revelation
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 [TSP] Ancient Grudge

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

That was tottaly awesome. Congratulations

Did Brainstorm make a difference at all?

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They were pretty solid all day long, winning me at least two games. The question is, whether they are better than the Gambles I played in this slot before. Gamble seems like the more powerful spell, but the ability to cast BS off a Coliseum is incredibly important.
As a side note: I never put Narcomoebas back with BS... it just didn't happen.
Either way: Big Props to Taco for suggesting them although I still feel it's completly wrong to cut Breakthrough.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bovinious

Making the deck more combo-ish and faster with more draw and less PImp seems interesting, although this seems to me to make the deck VERY reliant on LED because DA, Coliseum, and sometimes Breakthrough really are bad without LED in that build. You could possibly add Serum Powder to find LED much like Vintage lists use it to find Bazaar, but im not sure this is worth it because always using LED forces you to go all out and be vulnerable to FoW on LED and GY hate postboard where Imp/Tribe would help you play around Crypt. Also, I dont think 8 lands is enough if you always want to see one, in extended I run 10 and still dont draw land sometimes, and your list really seems to want to cast things for U.

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The ratios need to be adjusted, I go back and forth on the number of Golgari Thugs, Ichorids, Nether Shadows, Dread Return package and Deep Analysis for lands or Chrome Mox/Lotus Petal. I like the idea of cutting Putrid Imp for Nether Shadow and running less land, Nether Shadow is just an untapped resource in this deck, and if the deck functions with out Putrid Imp, all the better.

Platinum Angel in sideboard is a completely awful idea. If you've dredged enough to have 3 creatures in play, Angel in the yard, and Dread Return in the yard, then you've Dredged enough to unload on somebody's face with a series of Cabal Therapy flashbacks, which will buy you the time you need to win.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

Platinum Angel in sideboard is a completely awful idea. If you've dredged enough to have 3 creatures in play, Angel in the yard, and Dread Return in the yard, then you've Dredged enough to unload on somebody's face with a series of Cabal Therapy flashbacks, which will buy you the time you need to win.

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Not to mention that now that Swords to Plowshares isn't as omni present as it once was, reanimating Golgari Grave Troll as an X/X is often more than enough, Smother, Ghastly Demise and Diabolic Edict can't touch him, tho' Shriekmaw is the god of all removal spells for being able to to kill Golgari Grave Troll and remove Bridge from Below at the same time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BreathWeapon

Not to mention that now that Swords to Plowshares isn't as omni present as it once was, reanimating Golgari Grave Troll as an X/X is often more than enough, Smother, Ghastly Demise and Diabolic Edict can't touch him, tho' Shriekmaw is the god of all removal spells for being able to to kill Golgari Grave Troll and remove Bridge from Below at the same time.

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This is true. GGT is a pretty fantastic reanimation target in certain circumstances.

Unless they have a Genesis/Shriekmaw lock (BGW or BGR Survival,) even Shriekmaw shouldn't be a problem, as I can Cabal Therapy the daylights out of someone before reanimating GGT (And I can't imagine I would ever Dread Return GGT without doing so unless I had no other choice.)

If you have a hand without land, some dredgers, and some cards as PImp, Ichord, D Return etc. So its a hand with only Dredgers, and cards you can't use because you have no lands. Do you keep a hand like this when you are on the draw (against an unknown deck)? And when you are on the play (also against an unknown deck)?

And when you mulled to 6? I think you dont keep an hand like that then (ecpecially not when you are on the play)..

And when you know against what deck you play, what should you do then with a hand like that?

Thats the only thinh of the deck where I make mistakes, with hand to keep or not...

Hope someone can answer :)


Mvg