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I was referring to switching Brainstorm on the top of the pile for a Top in the very same place. But, still, that example happens to be a Brainstorm pile as much as a Top pile:Quote:
Originally Posted by rsaunder
Top on the board, cast Doomsday for (Brainstorm,LED,LED,IGG,Tendrils)
Spin Top
Library is (Top,LED,LED,IGG,Tendrils), Hand is (Brainstorm,X,X)
The Top pile transforms itself into a Brainstorm pile with the same requirements and procedure.
Jaiminho is correct, the stack I've posted is not optimal. It should be:
Brainstorm, 2 cards in hands, 1U
-> Top, LED, LED, IGG, Tendrils
About the goldfish: I don't think it's a necessity to kill turn 3. In the majority of goldfishing scenarios which don't get me there on turn 3, I am able to cast a Duress or an Orim's Chant. And losing to Burn or Goyf Sligh because you had a suboptimal draw and they had a turn 3/turn 4 kill can happen to every deck, combo or non-combo.
Just because it "can happen to every deck" doesn't make it okay when we have the potential to win where other decks just go "whoops, the got god-draw. Next game!" What makes this deck better than solidarity was isn't the disruption. That deck could play through a counter like no other. This deck is just damn faster, and i think we might be getting away from that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brehn
emidln, you told me the other day that you had a fundamental turn of about 2.5 with the 8-disruption build. That's where we need to be, but can you give us some pointers so the rest of us might be able to duplicate your results? Also, how goes the primer? (and linkage?)
EDIT: RE: The pile above: Why is it superior? It doesn't give any extra storm and is just more vulnerable to pithing needle. Although I do like the ability to have it go both ways with the top on the table...
EDIT: 2: Wow, I need to RTFP.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rsaunder
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaiminho
Did somebody make extended testing of goldfishing?
What are the combo repartitions of a kill with chant backup and without chant BU?
Round 3 vs UnknownIII (2-0)
After some drama about my deck code (FU breathweapon for making me retest shusher thus destroying my security code :)), I get off to nice start losing the die roll.
Game 1 I keep this hand:
Brainstorm
Orim's Chant
Duress
Tendrils of Agony
Mystical Tutor
Polluted Delta
Polluted Delta
My opponent leads Mountain, Figure of Destiny. I draw Lotus Petal. Figuring that I'll need to goldfish fairly quickly, I need to maximize the usefulness of Brainstorm (particularly to get rid of Tendrils + Chant or chaff I draw). This means I'll want to Brainstorm + Fetch in the same turn. Consequently, I open with Delta -> Sea and a Duress. I see the following:
Mountain
Chain Lightning
Mogg Fantastic
Mogg Fantastic
Magma Jet
This isn't really a difficult decision. Chain Lightning does more damage to you, but Magma Jet has two functions for the RDW player. The first (and obvious one) is to filter away some bad cards, but more important in this matchup and this hand is that Jet combined with the two Goblins to produce 4 damage at instant-speed. If I leave Magma Jet, I'll be forced to either Chant my opponent before comboing (a hassle) or make sure I'm at 10 or more life before I combo. Given the state of my hand, I can't be certain of this.
On his turn 2 he attacks me for 2 down to 17 (pumping FoD) and playing a Fanatistic. I untap, play my fetch and pass. The question of whether or not to Brainstorm on main phase is kinda tricky. You don't really need to be Duressing again, but Top would be really tasty. I believe that since I already have a known fallback in Mystical Tutor that my play was justifiable, but the power of Ponder/Top perhaps should have forced me to mainphase the Brainstorm. My opponent plays a Fanatastic, Chain Lightnings me, attacks me, and passes. On his endstep I Brainstorm into Sensei's Top, Flooded Strand, and Doomsday. This makes it an easy call to eot Mystical for Cabal Rit (after the fetch, tutor, and petal I'll have Thresh), untap and win the game (as long as he didn't draw Fireblast). I go for this pile due to mana constraints (BB floating and a blue-producing land untapped, only 1 card in hand):
Meditate
Lotus Petal
Lion's Eye Diamond
Lion's Eye Diamond
Tendrils of Agony
I tap top to draw my Meditate and cast it to draw into SDT, Petal, LED, LED. I play Petal, LED, LED, SDT (with Petal). I break both LEDs for black and tap top to draw into Tendrils of Agony. I play Tendrils for lethal. He doesn't Fireblast me so I win.
I sideboard out Chants, Cruel Bargain, and Krosan Grip for Ancient Grudges, Echoing Truth, Rushing River, Pyroclasm, and Slaughter Pact.
Game 2 I open up this:
Brainstorm
Ponder
Sensei's Divining Top
Meditate
Echoing Truth
Island
Badlands
My opponent against opens with Mountain, Figure of Destiny. I draw into Dark Ritual and play Sensei's Top with Island. He attacks me down to 19 and drops a Tarmogoyf. On my turn I draw into Ponder. At this point there are a few lines of play I could follow, but since I don't really have a solid combo hand yet, I want to dig as much as possible. This means Ponder. I play Ponder seeing two fetches and a rushing river, then take and play the fetch. I get an Underground Sea and, given that my hand is still doesn't have a way to find Doomsday or a way to go off with Meditate, I play another Ponder. I take LED while stacking Tropical Island on top of Tendrils of Agony. I pass and my opponent decides to upkeep a Magma Jet (Probably looking for REB, Pithing Needle, or Fireblast). He attacks me down to 12 and passes without making a land drop. I draw my Tropical Island and Brainstorm drawing Tendrils of Agony, Dark Ritual, Lion's Eye Diamond. How good right? I put back Echoing Truth (this will make Tendrils lethal by itself post-Meditate) and Tendrils of Agony. Looking at my hand right now I have lethal without drawing any more cards because my opponent has cracked two fetches. (The key is to play out the accel into Meditate, then Echoing Truth my Sensei's Top and replay it for 8 storm while still holding Tendrils.). I play some Dark Rituals, LEDs, and Meditate breaking LEDs for black and blue. Floating BBBBBBUUU I draw into Tendrils of Agony (surprise), Echoing Truth, Duress, Ponder. My storm is already 6 so I go for Duress just to look. He was holding:
Incinerate
Krosan Grip
Fireblast
Mogg Fanatic
None of these cards matter much since I'm still at 12 life. I take Fireblast just in case I happen to run into a Doomsday (although it doesn't look like I'll need it at this point). I Ponder into a Brainstorm. I inflate the storm count with Brainstorm, Dark Ritual, Echoing Truth, spin top, draw an LED off Top, and play a Tendrils with around 12 storm.
i just finished building the deck, will start goldfishing soon. However, i am missing the 4 orim's chant
what would you suggest at it's place? 4 thoughtseize? Extirpate? Abeyance?
Robert
I would highly recommend testing with Orim's Chants and borrowing them on the day of any event until such a time where you can obtain them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Omega
But assuming it is impossible for me to get the Chants, what replacement to it? Even if suboptimal. Because the deck is no relying on Graveyard, can Fow/Thoughtseize do the job?
Robert
Play Thoughtseize and Duress. It's not optimal, but probably the best replacement for Chant. You can play Xantid Swarm out of the sideboard.
I would play abeyance. Thoughtseize is too life intensive for the deck, and abeyance gives you the same protection of Orim against burn (and even fanatic).
Force of Will provides somewhat of the same protection as chant, but it does so less reliably (you really don't want to ever pitch blue cards in this deck) and not at all as parts of the Doomsday combo progress (unless you're able to generate more mana to make SDT piles work with Dark Rits or you're able to only use straight Brainstorm/Ponder piles).Quote:
Originally Posted by Omega
Orim's Chant is functional because it takes away all threats while only being affected by a small range of threats (hard counters). This lets Orim's Chant trade with hard counters until such a time where you can make one resolve to generate card advantage. It's this card advantage taking away things like Stifle, Red Elemental Blast, and Extirpate that makes a Doomsday pile viable. Cards like Duress, Thoughtseize, Force of Will, Misdirection, and Pact of Negation don't provide the necessary card advantage to fill this slot. They simply don't allow the deck to prey upon the utter lack of hard countermagic in the format. If you can't get Chants, that really leaves you with three options:
(1) Ignore this slot. If you're not playing against decks with Stifle, Trickbind, Extirpate, and REB/Pyroblast, this might work. Most metagames have Dreadstill, Threshold, and Landstill in significant numbers though.
(2) Play Abeyance. Abeyance costing an additional mana and consequently being hit by Spell Snare make me not play it. Interestingly, Abeyance is an enabler for Doomsday, although you will generally want to be playing Abeyance before you cast other spells (with the exception of Duress and Extirpate).
(3) Play Xantid Swarm. Swarm is the best approximation of Chant, but is affected by the format's infinite creature hate. This is most apparent in game one situations.
You could *try* counterbalance. None of us besides Emidln have had any sort of luck with it, but it's all here. You play 4x Top, the list is a lot like thresh in that it has so much 1/2 cc spells it's not even funny, and UU isn't hard to get as all but one of my duals is a blue dual.
It doesn't work well with Doomsday, though, and that's a problem, and it NEVER stops a FoW.
I've never liked T-Seize as it does cause a lot of pain, which, in my mind, is unacceptable for this list. We almost always have to cast Doomsday, which is 1/2 your life, 8 fetches, and I use 4 sometimes a game. Then there's your Bargain, which also costs 1/2 your life. Sometimes you can't choose it over Meditate due to mana constraints. I rarely have to use it, but once in a while it's simply not possible.
I don't know if I'd even play the deck if I wasn't capable/willing to get chants. They are pretty much that vital. Even if you are completely sure that you will see nothing but pure agro all day, they act as Time Walks against that, which honestly can help keep your life up while you sculpt your hand.
Pce,
--DC
And can Ponder replace Brainstorm in those D-Day stacks?
EDIT:::
Very sorry about the double-post, didn't even remember that I was last to post...
EDIT #2: Extirpate could be considered for protection in place of Chant if paired with a set of Duresses.
Which dday stacks are you talking about?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
Nope. You need to replace 2 cards in hand with 2 card in the top 3. Brainstorm will act as a draw 3 that shits on the top of the library in those scenarios.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
for the 4 orim's slot, ive splitted
1 thoguthseize
2 abeyance (might go for a third)
not sure about the fourth
i was thinking of cutting
1 IGG
1 infernal tutor
to put in some LDV
Robert
Don't cut IGG entirely. You need it for the cheapest Doomsday pile, aside from giving you an alternate (but worse) storm enabler.Quote:
Originally Posted by Omega
I am actually trying something with
Grapeshot + Helm
and
Tendril of Agony
as kill condition and i am liking very much the grapheshot! In fact, i haven't won once with the tendril! I am probably playing the deck wrong though...
IE:
2 lands in play with a sensei, tap (1) cast dark ritual, led, duress opponent, tap land, doomsday. Win on turn three because Helm of awakening is on top, followed by Sensei's top. Grapeshot is third card. 4th and 5th cards can be a dark ritual and an igg in case i fail combo, somehow.
I managed in my testing to do a couple of kills like that. Would you say that it is a mistake to not go for the kill immediately (i dont think it is possible, with that hand though)? Yes, i am giving opponent 1 turn to find answer to or to kill me... But that combo looks good since you dont need to chain spells to make a lethal Tendril.
second example
turn 2 (2land) eot mystical tutor for a second dark ritual.
turn 3, 3 lands, double ritual (5 mana + 2 mana untap) duress (4) dday (1) put helm, sensei, sensei, grapeshot and a duress or lotus petal if you dont have the Red mana. (if opponent plays control, you can play slower and use duress before attempting combo). Take one burn and win on turn 4 (if i have a draw in hand) or win turn 5 otherwise. Again, this is not an ideal hand. I probably went for the combo too fast, without the appropriate cards. But the fact that Grape + Helm combo doesn't need 10 storm is quite good....
what are your thoughts?
Robert
Passing the turn is wrong.