Re: [Deck] B/U Reanimator
Quote:
Originally Posted by
John Rohan
It is good, HOWEVER, there is one big problem. If your opponent counters it with a FoW or whatever, you just used up at least 3 cards (Entomb, Ritual, Reanimate) in the process. Dark Rit is great, but you take a risk because this deck type already suffers from card disadvantage. And if you draw a Ritual later in the game, it's usually a wasted draw. Same problem with Chrome Mox, which unlike a land, can be countered.
That's crazy talk IMO
My reanimator's gone exactly 3-1 the last four tourneys I've played it lol (bah, always one game lol), so little consistency! :P jk
You can call it meta, you can call it w/e.. but that whole "Everyone on earth runs blue and has a FoW" counterpoint gets old when its prolly more like >10% the decks out there
1) every deck is not blue
2) those decks that are blue, not all run FoW (lossed to MUC, didnt run any funny enuf lol)
3) Used 3 cards in the process? .. they can FoW ritual.. that's one. They can let you ritual, entomb, counter your reanimator.. that's still just a 2-for-2 since you still get creature in gy.
Or you can also make use of Duress, remove their hate and combo off on them.
I really am not a fan of mox in reanimator to tell the truth
I run 3 buried alive, 2 intuition in my deck so late-game rituals aren't usually wasted 'specially with waste-hate. My 2cents
Re: [Deck] B/U Reanimator
Quote:
Originally Posted by
John Rohan
It is good, HOWEVER, there is one big problem. If your opponent counters it with a FoW or whatever, you just used up at least 3 cards (Entomb, Ritual, Reanimate) in the process. Dark Rit is great, but you take a risk because this deck type already suffers from card disadvantage. And if you draw a Ritual later in the game, it's usually a wasted draw. Same problem with Chrome Mox, which unlike a land, can be countered.
But if they force your Reanimation spell when you're using a Chrome Mox, the net result is the same. On top of that, with Chrome Mox, you have to imprint a card netting you card disadvantage there.
Obviously, you get to keep your Chrome Mox, but that's the point of Dark Ritual - it's an accelerant to get you going as early as possible, which allows you to T1 with Exhume instead of having to have Reanimate like you have to with Chrome Mox.
Also, we're playing blue in the deck, so we're running FoW/Daze as well. With Dark Ritual, if you have Entomb/Reanimate, you even have 1 mana available to use on a Duress or Thoughtseize on top of your countermagic suite.
Re: [Deck] B/U Reanimator
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Esper3k
But if they force your Reanimation spell when you're using a Chrome Mox, the net result is the same. On top of that, with Chrome Mox, you have to imprint a card netting you card disadvantage there.
Obviously, you get to keep your Chrome Mox, but that's the point of Dark Ritual - it's an accelerant to get you going as early as possible, which allows you to T1 with Exhume instead of having to have Reanimate like you have to with Chrome Mox.
Either way, if your opponent Forces your reanimation spell, you and your opponent are both down two cards. With Chrome Mox, you at least have an extra mana on your next turn. That's especially important in a build that's light on land.
Re: [Deck] B/U Reanimator
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AngryTroll
Either way, if your opponent Forces your reanimation spell, you and your opponent are both down two cards. With Chrome Mox, you at least have an extra mana on your next turn. That's especially important in a build that's light on land.
True - Dark Ritual does allow you to use Exhume T1 though or protect your combo T1 with a Duress/Thoughtseize if you're playing Reanimate though.
Re: [Deck] B/U Reanimator
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Esper3k
True - Dark Ritual does allow you to use Exhume T1 though or protect your combo T1 with a Duress/Thoughtseize if you're playing Reanimate though.
A dark ritual also allows you to have daze mana if you fear daze when you're on the draw... Something no one even mentioned... Thought I'd mention it atleast.
Re: [Deck] B/U Reanimator
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mystical_Jackass
3) Used 3 cards in the process? .. they can FoW ritual.. that's one. They can let you ritual, entomb, counter your reanimator.. that's still just a 2-for-2 since you still get creature in gy.
2 for 2? How do you figure that? It's 3 for 2.
You cast: Dark Ritual+Entomb+Reanimate, opponent casts FoW. Yes, you got a creature in the gy. But you also used up three other cards, severely depleting your hand. Maybe you can respond with your own FoW, but then your hand is totally empty. And that creature in the graveyard doesn't do you any good on it's own (unless it has the unearth ability) - you still need yet another card to pull it out.
And it's not only against blue. Here's another example. Let's say you are playing against threshold. Dark Ritual+Entomb+Reanimate, and you throw out Iona. Great first turn. But opponent hits it with a Sword to Plowshares. Now you just lost a freaking four cards to your opponent's one (your fat creature is removed from game). That's why I'm not a fan of using Dark Ritual or Chrome Mox in these decks. It just can't afford any more card disadvantage.
Re: [Deck] B/U Reanimator
If you're playing against UGW Thresh, and your Reanimate for Iona resolves, why would you say any other color besides White?
Re: [Deck] B/U Reanimator
Quote:
And it's not only against blue. Here's another example. Let's say you are playing against threshold. Dark Ritual+Entomb+Reanimate, and you throw out Iona. Great first turn. But opponent hits it with a Sword to Plowshares. Now you just lost a freaking four cards to your opponent's one (your fat creature is removed from game). That's why I'm not a fan of using Dark Ritual or Chrome Mox in these decks. It just can't afford any more card disadvantage.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but when playing against an opponent sporting white removal (the only removal capable of really hurting you big time with Swords and Path) and you reanimate Iona, Shield of Emeria and you do not choose white as the color which cannot be played anymore, you just made a grave play error and you deserve to get your but kicked by Swords or Path.
I might be seeing this the wrong way, of course...
Re: [Deck] B/U Reanimator
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kicks_422
If you're playing against UGW Thresh, and your Reanimate for Iona resolves, why would you say any other color besides White?
And...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
caenel
Correct me if I'm wrong, but when playing against an opponent sporting white removal (the only removal capable of really hurting you big time with Swords and Path) and you reanimate Iona, Shield of Emeria and you do not choose white as the color which cannot be played anymore, you just made a grave play error and you deserve to get your but kicked by Swords or Path.
I might be seeing this the wrong way, of course...
OK, you do the smart thing, and choose White. And then your opponent casts a Sower of Temptation, and you smack your head, wishing you had chosen Blue instead!!
Even if you threw a shroud creature out, it can still be removed with cards like Wrath of God, Evacuation, or Nev's Disk, and you have the same problem.
So no matter what you do, you can't get around the fact that this deck can suffer greatly from card disadvantage. Don't get me wrong, I love this type of deck - but you have to keep all this in mind when adding in cards like Dark Ritual or Chrome Mox, which compound the problem.
Re: [Deck] B/U Reanimator
Sacrificing consistency for speed and explosiveness is a bad idea.
While Dark Ritual->Entomb->Exhume is a powerful play if resolved, a first turn Iona really isnt THAT much more different than a turn two Iona. Its true, this deck WILL fail if it focuses all its resources on mana acceleration and the like. Counterspells and removal will cause card disadvantage that may be unrecoverable.
This is not a true combo deck, it will not kill right when you combo off and bring a creature into play. A turn 1 Akroma is not as scary as say, a turn 2 Akroma followed by a turn 3 Hellkite Overlord. Focusing on consistently being able to bring out fat is what this deck should aim for.
Animate Dead over Reanimate is an interesting idea against aggro heavy metagames.
Re: [Deck] B/U Reanimator
I just want to add that a first or second turn Ioona or Blazing archon against elf decks is a win pre board...
I lost to the B/U reanimator countless times, and after board, I can't do much with my elf deck since I don't pack creature removal in my board.
But this might not say anything since the meta isn't B/U reanimators...
So there are times that explosiveness reanimation is good. But it will be jank most of the time and the deck isn't that great in the current meta imo. But it crushes creature based decks such as Elves.
Re: [Deck] B/U Reanimator
Hi, I'm new to this forum and only registered for this thread. Sorry for any grammatical mistakes, I'm Hungarian. I have this deck too. Not that consistent, but I try to make it so. Decklist:
4 Tainted Isle (*1)
2 Island
12 Swamp
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1 Empyrial Archangel
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Angel of Despair
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Bogardan Hellkite
1 Symbiotic Wurm (*2)
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
4 Animate Dead
4 Entomb
4 Buried Alive (*3)
4 Dark Ritual
1 Think Tank (*4)
4 Putrid Imp
3 Carfeul Study
2 Sickening Dreams
2 Chain of Vapor
(*1) - Tainted Isle; I know Underground Seas and Polluted Deltas are must, but they're a bit expensive. I'm waiting for the best deal. But they are the next to get my hand on. Btw is Bloodstained Mire really that important? I know, more fetch, more filtering, better cards to draw, but how much are they better than, for example Watery Grave?
And with the release of Zendikar, more fetch with black came up. What's now? Are 8 fetches enough in a reanimator or Zen fetches will be needed too?
(*2) - Symbiotic Wurm; I use it against a Rock deck, though Iona seems as good or even better against Rock. So I may take it out.
Q regarding to fatties: How many fatties should a reanimator run? Does it depend on the metaA? I'd stick with 6-8, but I see a lot of players running 5 or less.
(*3) - Buried Alive; Most of the people(or at least in this topic), don't use it. They use Intuition instead. Why is it better?
(*4) - Think Tank; Though I can't see any of you using it, It's fun to use, it sorts out unnecessary cards like later game lands and Dark Rits.
That's all
Cheers
Re: [Deck] B/U Reanimator
You guys should check out the reanimator decks from the top 8s of PT-N'awlins 2001 and PT-Houston 2002. Rob Doughtery, Darwin Kastle, and Dave Humpherys all ran them to top 8s. They're a little more in the mono-black control vein than any list I've seen in this thread, but I think the mtg.com match coverage and lists have some ideas that bear investigation.
Re: [Deck] B/U Reanimator
Intuition is instant speed and it is blue and as such can be pitched to FoW; they both do almost the same thing except intuition can also grab a reanimation spell, or anti hate, or whatever you need. IMO anyone running buried alive over intuition doesn't know how to utilize intuition or something because the card is clearly better than buried alive.
As for your list torpere why no inkwell leviathan? 7/11 shroud islandwalking trampling dude that is super good against StP and it's ilk? The card should be a staple IMO even with Iona in the deck now.
Yeah this deck doesn't need to rush out of the gates and try to behave with a combo philosophy because it doesn't win the turn you reanimate something. And I really don't like chrome mox here as it is severe card disadvantage is they qasali pridemage it or you could possibly need the card it removed later and regret it. Although I would gladly imprint a dark rit on it, dark rit and chrome mox don't belong in the deck.
Re: [Deck] B/U Reanimator
Quote:
Originally Posted by
coraz86
They're a little more in the mono-black control vein than any list I've seen in this thread, but I think the mtg.com match coverage and lists have some ideas that bear investigation.
Something else I want to bring up. I've tested several different versions of Reanimator. B/U is NOT the only option. I'm not certain it's even the best option. Mono black, B/G, and B/W also do very well.
Mono black - More consistent. Dark Rituals are a little more useful here, and you can use Hymn to Tourach to disrupt your opponent. In fact, you have to use card attack strategies because otherwise the deck has no way of getting rid of artifacts or enchantments.
B/G - You get many powerful tools, such as Pernicious Deed, Life/Death, and Defense of the Heart. Wild Mongrel is great too. Krosan Grip is a lifesaver against cards like Tormod's Crypt or Relic of Progenitus.
B/W - You get plenty of removal against creatures, artifacts, and enchantments, including Vindicate. Tireless Tribe is just as good as Putrid Imp as a discard engine. Eternal Dragon is fantastic here. In fact, many of the best fat creatures are white, meaning that you can hard cast them as well. Examples: Akroma, Iona, Reyva Dawnbringer, Angel of Despair, Windbrisk Raptor, etc.
B/R - I haven't found any real strengths here, but if someone can think of some, I'm all ears.
Re: [Deck] B/U Reanimator
Quote:
Originally Posted by
John Rohan
Something else I want to bring up. I've tested several different versions of Reanimator. B/U is NOT the only option. I'm not certain it's even the best option. Mono black, B/G, and B/W also do very well.
Mono black - More consistent. Dark Rituals are a little more useful here, and you can use Hymn to Tourach to disrupt your opponent. In fact, you have to use card attack strategies because otherwise the deck has no way of getting rid of artifacts or enchantments.
B/G - You get many powerful tools, such as Pernicious Deed, Life/Death, and Defense of the Heart. Wild Mongrel is great too. Krosan Grip is a lifesaver against cards like Tormod's Crypt or Relic of Progenitus.
B/W - You get plenty of removal against creatures, artifacts, and enchantments, including Vindicate. Tireless Tribe is just as good as Putrid Imp as a discard engine. Eternal Dragon is fantastic here. In fact, many of the best fat creatures are white, meaning that you can hard cast them as well. Examples: Akroma, Iona, Reyva Dawnbringer, Angel of Despair, Windbrisk Raptor, etc.
B/R - I haven't found any real strengths here, but if someone can think of some, I'm all ears.
I was also thinking that I'm not sure the countermagic package isn't the best option. I do like the idea of Intuition/Careful Study/Brainstorm (something like the list Peer Kroger ran at Worlds the one year that made use of Hapless Researcher, I want to say 2003), but I'm less sure about the counterspell defense.
YMG's New Orleans list included Zombie Infestation and Krovikan Horror as long-game hedges. Krovikan Horror is especially nice when someone tries to Swords your fattie (if you for some reason couldn't land a guy with shroud), or if you for some reason can't land those last couple points. From experience running variations of Sui and Exhume-based decks, I can state that the hardest part of playing a deck like this is closing the door. I can't count how many times I've gotten my opponent on their heels and gotten them below 5 life...and lost, because I kept drawing lands and Hymns and they got back into the game.
I have not had time to test this deck lately, as I have multiple jobs and some other shit going on, but I wanted to bring up the list Humpherys ran into the top 8 at New Orleans.
3 Rishadan Port
19 Swamp
1 Avatar of Woe
2 Krovikan Horror
1 Multani, Maro-Sorcerer
1 Nether Spirit
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Verdant Force
2 Animate Dead
3 Buried Alive
1 Contamination
4 Duress
4 Entomb
4 Exhume
1 Massacre
4 Reanimate
4 Vampiric Tutor
4 Zombie Infestation
SB:
1 Ascendant Evincar
1 Avatar of Woe
1 Bone Shredder
3 Coffin Purge
2 Contamination
2 Massacre
1 Null Rod
1 Perish
2 Phyrexian Negator
1 Terror
Obviously we don't have access to Vampiric Tutor, so the board would need work, but I like the main deck. I like the deck's immunity to Wasteland and Stifle, but maybe white could give us Enlightened Tutor if we tweak the board a little. That also allows us one Ethersworn Canonist to Entomb/Exhume against combo with the option to sideboard the other three. The deck could handle Gaddock Teeg or Meddling Mage, or I guess even Iona, but it would be nice to have something to hardcast.
Red could bring Burning Wish to the table, and possibly Recoup. I don't like Recoup, but this is one of the few decks I'd think about it in, since Exhume is cheap enough that once in a while it might be useful. Red also offers Pyrostatic Pillar against combo, Pyro/Red Elemental Blast(s) against blue, Anathemancer against pretty much anything, maybe Firespout or the like against Zoo and Merfolk.
I'm not trying to completely invalidate the whole thread, but I like the direction Dark Ritual is trying to guide the deck/thread into, and I wanted to chip in a few ideas.
Re: [Deck] B/U Reanimator
Quote:
Originally Posted by
John Rohan
Something else I want to bring up. I've tested several different versions of Reanimator. B/U is NOT the only option. I'm not certain it's even the best option. Mono black, B/G, and B/W also do very well.
I disagree. I think B/U is the only option. My conclusion comes from the following logic: all of the necessary cards to assemble the reanimator combo are black, so we can assume the most basic version of the deck is mono-B. But, can mono-B be successful? The old 2001-2002 extended reanimator decks show us the answer is yes. But when we build a decklist as close as possible to those and goldfish, we find that consistency is missing. Sometimes we have all the pieces we need to assemble our combo, sometimes not. Legacy is a faster format anyway, so we can't sit around drawing cards for 4 or 5 turns hoping to topdeck the last piece of the puzzle. Quick question: What card does every single T8 reanimator deck have that Legacy decks cannot? Answer: Vampiric tutor- the card responsible for those decks' consistency. Therefore, we can conclude that because a full 1/4th of our tutor/entomb/exhume/reanimate combo is missing (1/5th if you count Buried Alive, but we don't run that anyway) and there is no comparable replacement in black, we need to splash colors.
In looking for a splash, we have to consider the empty Vampiric Tutor slot first and foremost. There's also something else which we never considered in 2001-2, but need to now. Quick question: What 2 highly relevant cards appear in Legacy but not Extended in 2001-2002? Answer: Swords to Plowshares and Path to Exile. A quick check of the DTB shows that every deck except UGR/ UGB Thresh and Ant commonly runs one or the other (sometimes both!) MD or sometimes in the sideboard (like tribals). To me, that's un-ignoreable. For the cost of W, every deck in the DTB (except the 2 above) can 3 for 1 us (entomb+creature+reanimator) or worse (+tutors/accelerants). So those are our 2 primary concerns in considering a splash: what can it do to replace Vampiric Tutor and what can it do to protect our fattie once it's on the board?
I don't want to set up a straw man argument for other splashes, but I can't possibly see what they add. The cards you suggested didn't strike me as sensible reasons to splash.
For B/G: Deed? Enemy permanents are not a weakness of the deck. Defense of the Heart? Too expensive (no less than 2x as much as any other card we run, 4x if you don't count exhume). Mongrel? Putrid Imp is cheaper. Life/ Death? The cost of exhume, the drawback of reanimate. No thanks.
For B/W: Removal? Same argument as deed- enemy permanents are really not the issue here. Tribe? Imp is the same cost but on-color. Big creatures? We already use Akroma/ Iona, but we don't cast them anyway. The mana-specific requirement of a fattie doesn't count when you don't pay the cost.
But in B/U: We answer the consistency problem because Mystical is a direct swap for Vampiric- instant speed, CMC1, finds our combo. We also address the problem of cheap removal- huge, cheap counterspell suite in FoW, Daze and in recent testing, Intervene.
The point of splashing in the first place is to cover the weaknesses of a mono-colored deck. The way I see it, blue addresses the 2 biggest weaknesses we have- it perfectly fills the tutor gap and reasonably answers the removal problem. No other splash color even addresses a weakness as far as I can see, let alone solves it. We can't not splash, because all of the black tutors are banned or too expensive. Before anyone suggests it, using Dark Ritual to accelerate a crap tutor (Cruel, Diabolic, Grim, Rhystic), that just adds another card to the combo making it harder to assemble in the first place and puts us further in the hole if it's countered. Thus is my conclusion.
I think it's good we're looking for different ways to build the deck, but I don't think re-examining our splash color is the way to do it. To me, 4 Mystical Tutors and 4 FoW/Intervene are as permanent as 4 Entombs and Exhumes. Instead, we should contemplate what to do with the truly open slots- Reanimate might be replaceable because aggro wants the help badly (Animate Dead? OK, but is FoW/ Daze enough to stop now Pridemage and Grip on top of the Swords+Paths we already have them for? What else can we add?). Brainstorm is definitely replaceable because it's not a strong card in the deck (Intuition as an expensive tutor 5-8? Maybe, if we really want for tutors). Let me suggest putting back Putrid Imp from the pre-entomb days. I run a 9-creature build (Iona/Akroma/Inkwell/Sphinx/Archangel+ 4 Imps) and have found having discard outlet 9-12 (with entomb & study) incredibly valuable. We're going to try Krovikan Horror and Zombie Infestation next, so I'll report back on that.
I'm open to other ideas as well. This is one of my teammates' pet decks and I like it a lot too, so we've been trying tons of different cards over dozens of games lately. Any comments or suggestions either for new cards or on the logic of sticking with B/U splash I would be glad to take into consideration.
Re: [Deck] B/U Reanimator
Yeah monoblack could use hymn's and such.
As for a red splash: Burning wish sounds really interesting, being able to bring to your hand a reanimate, sweeper effect (like firespout or something), recoup (which is a very interesting wish target I'll admit; it is a real good swiss army knife IMO). White splash is also very interesting, but as for hardcasting iona or reya dawnbringer, good luck with that since they have WWW in their casting cost. But I'll admit tireless tribe is really good since it can chump goyfs and survive even thanks to it's discard outlet giving it +4 toughness. Only reason PImp is better is because it's more on-color since the majority of reanimator's cards are black so you could fetch a basic swamp and not miss a beat usually whereas fetching a plains could cause some colorfixing problems. Unless you're in a MU where your opponent doesn't play wasteland.
BU reanimator is just really solid because of the counter suite; along with intuition being a real beating in this deck.
I also really like red for the red elemental blast and pyroblast effects; seems like you need to resolve reanimate or exhume to win. And pyrostatic pillar against storm is really good.
Re: [Deck] B/U Reanimator
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dark Ritual
IMO anyone running buried alive over intuition doesn't know how to utilize intuition or something because the card is clearly better than buried alive.
You could be right, I've never played with this card
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dark Ritual
As for your list torpere why no inkwell leviathan? 7/11 shroud islandwalking trampling dude that is super good against StP and it's ilk? The card should be a staple IMO even with Iona in the deck now.
I have it outside the deck. As well Sundering Titan, SSS, Blazing Archon, Hellkite Overlord and a bunch of other fatties. I can change the list anytime. It's just the current setup.
Re: [Deck] B/U Reanimator
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IsThisACatInAHat?
For B/G: Deed? Enemy permanents are not a weakness of the deck.
Crypt? Relic? Leyline?
Also, another of the problems with this deck is getting swarmed by loads of weenie creatures (Elves, Ichorid decks, Goblins, etc). Deed sweeps these away nicely but doesn't destroy the big stuff. Try it.
Quote:
Life/ Death? The cost of exhume, the drawback of reanimate. No thanks..
Life/Death has it's other ability, which is very useful late game as an alternate win condition. So for only 1 mana difference, it gives you a powerful tool. No, I wouldn't use it if you were going the pure speed route expecting to get a fat creature out on the first turn, but except for that, it's a hell of a card.
Quote:
For B/W: Removal? Same argument as deed- enemy permanents are really not the issue here. Tribe? Imp is the same cost but on-color. Big creatures? We already use Akroma/ Iona, but we don't cast them anyway. The mana-specific requirement of a fattie doesn't count when you don't pay the cost.
Ahhh.... but it does! If you use this deck a lot (like me) you will find that more often than you expect, games drag out. And eventually you will have 8 or 9 lands on the table, and you would be able to hard cast that fat creature, if you had the right kind of lands. This is critical if your opponent has a Leyline of the Void or Tormod's Crypt out. It's good to have the option open. It doesn't happen often enough that I would shift my choices of creatures just based on that, but White happens to have most of the creatures I would want in my Reanimator deck anyway, so it works pretty well. If White just had big shroud creatures too, it would be perfect.
I wouldn't replace PImp with cards like Wild Mongrel or Tireless Tribe, but there's nothing wrong with running both of them. PImp also can't chump block when your graveyard hits threshold, which is annoying.
In playtesting, these different splashes were all pretty even. You are right though that Blue has the best tutoring options. Except for that, I don't see the real advantage. I'm not sold on using a counterspell suite because it really dilutes the focus of the deck.
