Re: [DTW] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
@arebennian; Gifts is like a FoF that lets you select the cards instead of blindly flipping. It's great in the late game, I have had great luck with it as well.
@Waikiki; congrats on your finish! I really like your list. Sphinx of Jwar Isle is a very interesting choice. How did that work out for you? It looks good on paper, and it isn't something I'd have thought to do, but would you run it again?
Also, did you run a Wish-board (expecting to Gifts for whatever you brought in), or did you run a more traditional sideboard?
Re: [DTW] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
My sideboard didn't had any thought at all I did not know what to expect so it was more traditional containing 4 offs etc. Most of the time I did not board.
@ sphinx, It was really great for me since people just cant get rid of it and it survives the abyss. Which has been really strong for me.
I use gifts in favor of intuition because it will gain card advantage and Its really a late game bomb like fact or fiction. I do not need to get the engine as fast as possible.
Re: [DTW] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
Lands: 25
3 Nantuko Monastery
3 Wasteland
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
Draw: 11
4 Brainstorm
2 Sensei’s Divining Top
3 Standstill
2 Fact or Fiction
Win-condition: 3
3 Decree of Justice
Counter-magic: 10
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
Board-control: 11
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Engineered Explosives
SB:
3 Krosan Grip
1 Counterspell
4 Negate
4 Extirpate
3 Path to Exile
Why not 4 Standstilll? SDT and FoF do have their merits (and downsides). So as for the draw-engine, I prefer to go for a split.
SDT: I especially appreciate its mana-fixing power, but stupidly, its mana-fixing power gets worse when facing mana denial decks packing Stifle, since Stifle stops the shuffle effects as well. That’s my reasoning for running only 2 SDT.
Nantuko Monastery: It can end the game very quickly; unlike Mishra’s Factory, it can be considered a real win-condition, not just a supplementary one. Coupled with DoJ, I can turn into the aggro role all of sudden and kill my opponent within two turns.
Colored manabase: Well, here I need your help. As you can see I’m testing a manabase without basics at the moment.
Tell me what you think.
Re: [DTW] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
Im switching my UW Landstill deck to Uwbg. After I collecting data from the last ten or so decklists posted here, Ive noticed that most are running only 5 sources of white (4 Tundra & 1 Plains). Is this really enough for a deck featuring so many spells with WW in the casting cost? Are 7 fetch lands enough to smooth it out when youre ready for WW?
Re: [DTW] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
@GrimJack
A good number of uwbg landstill decks only run 4 white sources. There just isn't room for basic lands. However, in a meta filled with Stifles and Wastelands I don't think even 5 white sources is enough to reliably get WW. This is unfortunate because Elspeth is an absolute bomb and is the perfect win condition for this deck.
Re: [DTW] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
I wonder if City of Brass or another WUBRG land would help this problem. Of course it wouldnt be fetchable though.
Re: [DTW] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GrimJack
I wonder if City of Brass or another WUBRG land would help this problem. Of course it wouldnt be fetchable though.
The problem with that is, what lands do you take out?
As much as it pains me to say it. I just don't know how viable UBGW Landstill is anymore. I have yet to find the right combination of threats and answers. It seems to me that the legacy metagame is so diverse that the best approach is to have a proactive strategy and hope you don't see hate. Landstill is the antithesis of proactive by trying to have the answer to every threat in the format and yet lacks inevitability even if you reach the lategame. I would really like to know what other people think about this, as I would love to be wrong.
Re: [DTW] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
Monastery and Mishra can take someone down in 1-3 turns usually.
I think the real problem is that people find the need to water down a already powerful deck.
This deck thrives on simple, and dominates because of it.
I don't care anymore, I'll post my list:
lands//24
4 mishra's factory
2 nantuko monastery
4 tundra
4 tropical island
4 underground sea
4 flooded strand
2 polluted delta
spells//36
4 brainstorm
2 sensei's divining top
4 standstill
2 fact or fiction
1 life from the loam
4 swords to plowshares
2 diabolic edict
4 pernicious deed
2 engineered explosives
4 counterspell
4 force of will
3 spell snare
the sideboard kind of changes all the time... It really depends on your metagame, but I usually include some number of counterbalances and relics/crypts.
Also about the list, you can go:
-3 snare
+3 stifle
Re: [DTW] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
From your previous posts, it appears you have supreme confidence that 6x manlands is dominate enough as the only win-cons in the deck. That certainly solves the WW problem as there are no Elspeths/DoJ/Humility. I suppose you just sit behind counterspells and a lot of card draw and make sure your manlands dont get plowed?
Re: [DTW] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
Monestary is a great clock for a deck like this, and you have 6 manlands + 7-8 hard counters for StP if you're looking to apply pressure late game. Countering just one of their Swords is usually enough and if you're going beatdown then you'll have a favorable board position and likely additional counters or non-counter answers in hand or on the board.
I recently and independently came up with a very similar list to the one posted by thefreakaccident (prior to the posting of his) based mostly on the guidelines he had set forth about BHWC Landstill earlier in the thread. The differences are:
-1 Trop
-1 U Sea
+1 Fetch
+1 Dust Bowl
-2 EE
-1 Counterspell
+2 Vindicate
+1 SDTop
and a sideboard of
4 Counterbalance
3 Path to Exile
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Ajani Goldmane
2 Vendillion Clique
1 Spell Snare
I'm uncomfortable about the strain Vindicate may put on the manabase but so far in testing it hasn't been an issue. Ajani out of the side is for Zoo primarily, but boarding for that match is something I'm very unsure about. I'd probably bring in 3 Path, 2 Ajani and 1 Spell Snare (assuming they're bringing PoP) and either leave Counterbalance in the board or bring in 2 for a mid-game security against topdecked burn until I can find Ajani. Standstill seems underwhelming here because you're unlikely to get favorable board position but I feel like the card advantage it provides is too valuable to lose.
Other than Zoo I think the sideboard is pretty tight. My biggest unanswered concern is definitely Progenitus. Perhaps I should be packing additional Edicts sideboard for Progenitus and the burgeoning Reanimator decks. Thoughts?
Re: [DTW] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
Hey fellow's
I did some reading agains in this thread, because I still like this deck alot. I even took it to a tournament yesterday.
I kinda agree to the BHWC aproach of TFA and the build Tacosnape showed a while deck.
For TFA the only thing I don't agree with Fact or Fiction over Jace. I'm a big Fact or Fiction lover, but I still think Jace is the better card in this deck for three reason's.
1) With the massive amount of removal AND sweepers that miss Jace, it isn't hard to protect Jace and Jace can draw more than Fact or Fiction in this deck.
2) It's easier. More in this later, but in short a good opponent will most of the time make 1 pile with answers and one pile with kill-conditions. With the few win-conditions it's a hard choice. Also the lack of bombs( Humility/Moat, Elspeth, Decree of Justice) the Fact or Fiction piles aren't as good as in UWb.
3) It's a win-condition... It's the worse, but if someone can stop all your man-lands or gain alot of life( one opponent managed this against me) Jace can still go all the way with her ultimate. Normally after the ultimate you can chain Standstills to win the game.
Now for the tournament I didn't do enough testing. That's why I had to think alot during the first to matches, and I was twice a turn short from winning in the last turn of extra time. In those matchups I had the upperhand. I did play Jace over Fact or Fiction, but I'm sure with Fact or Fiction I had even more problem finishing the games in time, because my opponent had to think which piles to make and I have to choose. In UWb make cards like Humility and Elspeth the choices for me and my opponent a little easier, but choosing between your man-lands or removal is a very though choice.
Now I'm testing to play the deck as fast as possible without making mistakes, but I was wondering if I could do something about the win-conditions.
The last tournament I played Tacosnapes manabase:
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand( Could also be the ZEN. blue duals, but I only own the old ones)
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Mutavault
It was too slow, going to time twice and ending the other 4 matches with +- 5 minutes on the clock How much faster is the Nantuko Monastery? Some opponents already boarded in GY hate against me( quite some dead cards MD and they feared Academy Ruins and Life from the Loam.)
I'm also thinking of reintroducing Tarmogoyf to the deck as finisher. Maybe as SB-slot to finish G2 when the opponent boared out quite some removal.
Can someon help me?
- Benie
PS. The fun part of this deck is that it absolutly slaughter Aggro-Loam, even with zero basic lands.
Re: [DTW] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Benie Bederios
Killcons..
with 8 manlands I don't see why you shouold not be able to win on time (I still think 8 colorless sources are at least 1 too many).
-1 Mutavault
+1 Monastery
should be good.
Re: [DTW] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GrimJack
From your previous posts, it appears you have supreme confidence that 6x manlands is dominate enough as the only win-cons in the deck. That certainly solves the WW problem as there are no Elspeths/DoJ/Humility. I suppose you just sit behind counterspells and a lot of card draw and make sure your manlands dont get plowed?
You pretty much just get board control, set up some draw, then go for the beats... That's usually how it goes... And of coarse, you can always sit behind a wall of counters sometimes.
Re: [DTW] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
There are some things I don't understand.
Everyone says that the manabase is the weakness of deck, but almost every deck posted here runs a large amount of off-color lands, even more than in 3 color builds. (8 off-color lands?!)
Why isn't Decree of Justice an auto-include? In 3 color builds it is an auto-include.
As you almost always cycle it, you don't have to care about the double WW in the casting costs.
Keeping in mind that 4 color builds lack Elspeth as a win-condition, I see DoJ by far as the best win-condition available to the deck.
Re: [DTW] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
I never said that the weakness of 4-C Landstill was it's manabase.
Look at the manabase I played last tournament( posted by Tacosnape)
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Mutavault
This manabase has 16 blue, 11 black, 11 white, 10 green sources.
The 3 CC manabase has
4 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
2 Island
2 Plains
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
1 Eternal Dragon
This deck has 14 Blue, 14 white, 9 black sources. Without the need of double white, so it's actually easier to get the right colours for the 4-C Landstill.
4-CC has more problems with Wasteland and Stifles, but only together. You can play quite good around one of them. It's also very easy to get the removed colours back if you have a fetch... The only real other problem is recurring Wasteland.
About Decree of Justice, I would like to play it, but don't know what to cut for it.
TFA, do you play exceptionally fast? How often do you go into time? I didn notice that Life from the Loam helps alot for this deck in recurring man-lands though. Problem is I can't find room for more than 1.
- Benie
Re: [DTW] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
thefreakaccident
Monastery and Mishra can take someone down in 1-3 turns usually.
I think the real problem is that people find the need to water down a already powerful deck.
This deck thrives on simple, and dominates because of it.
I don't care anymore, I'll post my list:
lands//24
4 mishra's factory
2 nantuko monastery
4 tundra
4 tropical island
4 underground sea
4 flooded strand
2 polluted delta
spells//36
4 brainstorm
2 sensei's divining top
4 standstill
2 fact or fiction
1 life from the loam
4 swords to plowshares
2 diabolic edict
4 pernicious deed
2 engineered explosives
4 counterspell
4 force of will
3 spell snare
the sideboard kind of changes all the time... It really depends on your metagame, but I usually include some number of counterbalances and relics/crypts.
Also about the list, you can go:
-3 snare
+3 stifle
Thank you for posting this list. I have been wanting to play a boiled down simplified list since I did not enjoy adding the extra win cons such as Elspeth, Eternal Dragon, and Decree of Justice. I put it together and ran some test games yesterday at a local shop against BG control, Dreadstill, Elves, and Affinity and just crushed all of it pre sideboard since I was not done making decisions about what I wanted in the board yet.
Love the list and will put it to good use!!
Re: [DTW] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
I just can't leave this deck alone. Love it.
Ive tested for the last month or so with a lot of success. I'm not a big fan of Cunning Wish/Enligtened tutors though in the long run, and that WW casting costs arent as bad as I feared. (Actually, since you really only need WW for Elsepth, its only late game anyways which I can handle. As long as I get the single W, B, and G early, its fine.) I found that dropping the Cunnings/Enlighteneds opened up some space for me to add a 4th Counter, and 2nd Monastary, which is really nice.)
Finally, I've switched over to Spell Pierce for the time being, in lieu of Spell Snare. This is comepletely 50/50 for me now in finalizing my MD. So anyways, her's my list, I'm open to suggestions, but Im quite pleased right now.
60 Legacy Uwbg Deedstill
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
2 Fact or Fiction/New Jace (Still TBD, probably 1+1)
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
1 Humility
4 Pernicious Deed
1 Life from the Loam
2 Engineered Explosives
7 Fetch Lands
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Nanutko Monastary
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 UG Sea
2 Island/Plains
1 Academy Ruins
15 Sideboard
3 Extirpate
3 Krosan Grip
3 Diabolic Edict
2 Misdirection
2 Meddling Mage
2 Wrath of God
Re: [DTW] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
I think in Landstill Spell Snare is much better than Spell Pierce. You have to be able to deal with Tarmogoyf as efficient as possible. You only run 4 StP-effects, Spell Snare makes up for that. Moreover you have Pernicious deed, so you can alraedy deal with Aether Vial quite good.
I think you should run at least 2 SDT. Maybe you can cut a land, Humility.
Re: [DTW] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
What do you think of Innocent Blood in this deck?
I've found CC 1 to be much better than CC 2, because you need your mana to activate SDT or to play a Standstill. Moreover CC 1 avoids Spell Snare.
Another option is PtE. However, the manabase doesn't have as many white mana sources as the U/W/x builds. A removal requiring B worked much better than one requiring W.
The major drawback I see is that it's sorcery speed.
Re: [DTW] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
Innocent Blood, while good, is just a hair worse than Diabolic Edict, which gives you recourse against Chalice for 1, a way to kill anything stopping Swords (Iona, Progenitus), another way to kill instantly generated attackers (Opposing Factory, Haste guys), and most importantly, the ability to leave a huge array of options open for saying "Draw, Land, Go." It's just generally fantastic. When I ran this deck all the time in tournaments I never left home without 3 Diabolic Edicts maindecked. I certainly wouldn't do it now. Edict's incredible in modern Legacy.
