You guys are getting trolled.
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You guys are getting trolled.
Absolutely agree with you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zilla
I think it's hilarious that you guys are crying over how unfair Misstep is because it is making all your severely overpowered 1cmc spells actually require risk to play. "Oh my God I totally would have won that game if he hadn't paid 2 life to counter my Aether Vial which I played before he got to lay his first land. Then I would have been able to drop creatures uncounterably for zero mana at instant speed every turn for the rest of the game, man Mental Misstep is so unfair!!!"
"Oh man, I would have totally won that game if my one mana answer to every creature every printed without shroud or protection from everything would have resolved, but he paid one blue and countered it, obviously Mental Misstep is the problem here, because there totally should not be an easy answer to such a fair card!!!"
"This is bullshit, I would have won that game if he hadn't paid 2 life to counter my turn 1 Wild Nacatl! I would have swung in for 6 damage before he even laid his third land for my one mana. Obviously Mental Misstep is broken here but my 3/3 one drop is perfectly okay and the only fair counter for it turn one should be two cards + 1 life."
"Man, what the fuck. I should have won vs. that Zoo deck but he ran Mental Misstep. That is so broken!!! He's not even a blue deck!!! I demand that Mental Misstep be banned so that all non-blue decks return to a 70/30 matchup for combo because that is what's fair!!!"
Isn't that really what this is all about? Of course most decks are running Misstep right now. If you guys are going to keep relying on completely overpowered one drops to win the game why the hell wouldn't people run Misstep? It's a strong card, and it's a really good card, but the only reason it's a really good card is because there are so many completely undercosted cards at one mana in Legacy. So what is really more unfair in the end, the card that only counters one drops or the one drops that do things like answer 99% of the creatures in the game for one mana, swing for a Lightning Bolt's worth of damage a turn, filter the worst 2 cards in your hand to the top of your deck, allow you to discard a Dredge outlet every turn, allow you to rearrange the top 3 cards of your deck every turn, allow you to drop a Goblin for free any time they connect, and the list goes on.
I disagree with one thing here: Even without Brainstorm in the format, blue would still be the most played color because FoW is the best catch all solution. The single only other color with similar solutions is black, with discards. White can answer every kind of permanent, black can discard them, but the absolute catch all is FoW. Maybe the inexistance of Brainstorm would make blue less powerfull, but would still be the most played, imo.
I'm actually playing MM in non-blue based deck (middle-range). I think MM should be banned.
Here is a reasons:
MM is free mana - no drawback time walk in turn 1. Paying 2 life is just to small drawback. So when playing for example mirror - guy who has more MM on hand and resolve his one mana drop get timewalk over opponent without any consequents on his mana involve, so he doesn't lost tempo (as for daze) and stops opponent. More over it's not dead card lately since Legacy mana curve is all around one mana drops, some of them are utilities, CQ, manadrops, removal or combo parts so mostly never dead lately.
It took down many archetypes down - Goblins/Spiral/Dredge etc and force them to use (mostly not all) to change strategy or playing Mental Missteps with them self - that isn't healthy situation force decks that doesn't play blue to pack cards to its 75 to have an answer for the same card.
It doesn't have any conditions to play it like island in play or similar so EVERY deck can run it. This mean that in near future if situation doesn't change every decklist using 1cc spells (90% of decks) will start from 4 Mental Misstep - this is enough reason to ban this card.
Does anyone know if the B&R list will be tomorrow (Monday 19) or the day after tomorrow (Tuesday 20)?
September 20th (so, the day after tomorrow...dunn dunn duuuuuunnnn) as far as I was informed here earlier.
Damn stop saying High Tide is dead, its just not played but it still beats Stoneblade and NO RUG..
Posts like this are unhelpful because power level is relative and abstractly saying that doing good things is not necessarily the same as a card being too good is meaningless. To determine if a card is "too" good we have to decide how we're defining that term and then look at where a card falls relative to that.Quote:
Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes
Banning Mental misstep will destroy more archetypes then printing of the card alone did. Changing strategi should be in every decks evolution.
Well that begs the question now doesn't it?Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
How would you define as too good? A high representation in the Top 8? Abstract power? Relative power? Some other criteria?
The only thing I don't like about Mental Misstep is the shitty art work and the new card frame. I like the card and its affect on the format and don't think it needs to be banned. Even if they are considering banning it they should give it at least another cycle to see how the format adapts.
I wouldn't mind seeing Stoneforge gone though. It's a cheap tutor and it cheats on mana and give unaccountability. But most of all I'm just sick of the card.
I also wouldn't mind seeing NA gone. it also is a tutor and mana cheat. Those both seem to be criteria that WTC considers when banning cards.
I'm hoping for a legitimate answer on this front as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
I'm very much on board with Holmes sentiment when he argues the only reason MM is ubiquitous is because players run 1 drops that are overpowered in relation to their cost and effect when compared against all other legal cards that offer similar effects. Cards that, on the draw, otherwise can only be responded to by discarding 2 cards and paying 1 life.
Yeah I get that I was reaching a little calling Swords "too good" because calling something too good implies that it should be banned. Still Swords is a one mana answer to almost any creature in the format. I think I could fit all the relevant creatures it doesn't deal with in a twitter post. Either way when people start complaining about Misstep and one of the rallying cries is that it counters Swords/Vial/Nacatl/random-combo-accelerator you have to ask if Mental Misstep is any less fair than the cards it is going to be countering 90% of the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
It's like Legacy players are addicted to using extremely powerful 1 mana cards as a crutch and are blind to what Misstep means for the format because they can't just run the same line of play they did 5 months ago when having a spell cost 1 mana was nothing but an advantage (except for Top/Balance which was on the decline).
What makes a card too good? Perhaps when the best answer against 'card in question' is your own copy of 'card in question', then maybe the 'card in question' is too powerful.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
Hmmm now what card could be a 'card in question' in our current legacy format? I will give you a hint, it is not brainstorm.
Quote:
Originally Posted by joemauer
Tendrils of Agony?
Well, for that card, there are multiple solutions:Quote:
Originally Posted by joemauer
A- Run your own as you said. (Mirror matches, Merfolk)
B- Run a redunant amount of 1cmc spells. (Zoo)
C- Run a deck that don't need 1cmc spells. (Stompy)
D- Run decks that shit all over those blue decks and don't care about a stupid counterspell. (Rock, mid-range, etc)
Just the fact I came up with three solutions beyond "run your own" should be evidence enough that the card in question is not broken.
Note best answer. Sure you could play a deck that doesn't worry about the card, storm used to eat up survival/vengevine, should Survival of the Fittest have been kept in Legacy?Quote:
Originally Posted by joemauer
There is something wrong when the best answer to a card is the card itself. Force of Will isn't the best answer to Force of Will. It is always situational what the best answer to FoW is. It counterspells for free but with the drawback of card disadvantage. MM has no card disadvantage and any deck can run it. So the easiest way to stop MM if it is hindering you, is to run your own. Or just run a new deck, like stoneblade or NO.
- I did note that.Quote:
Originally Posted by joemauer
- NOW you are making assumptions about MMS, though I do agree with that statement in a general sense.Quote:
There is something wrong when the best answer to a card is the card itself.
- And have we explored the other options fully to know for sure that running MMS to stop MMS is the answer? Also, comparing MMS to SotF is like comparing a well made Spartan shield to a nuclear bomb: the only thing comparable is they are both used for fighting stuff.Quote:
Force of Will isn't the best answer to Force of Will. It is always situational what the best answer to FoW is. It counterspells for free but with the drawback of card disadvantage. MM has no card disadvantage and any deck can run it. So the easiest way to stop MM if it is hindering you, is to run your own. Or just run a new deck, like stoneblade or NO.
The best answers to SotF:
1: Play extirpate(black exclusive)
2: Play deck that doesn't care about SotF(fast combo)
3: Play SotF in your own deck.
Answers two and three sound like the answers you gave to battle MM.
B: This is not a very practical solution. Against decks running Mental Misstep Zoo is:Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
Merfolk: 66% (As it has always been)
NO RUG: 50%
UW Stoneblade: 40%
Hivemind: 12%
So Zoo beats the creature based deck running Misstep and loses or splits with the Brainstorm based decks running Mental Misstep. Zoo isn't beating the Misstep/Brainstorm decks. It does well when it dodges those.
C: Seriously? We're talking about decks that have a chance at winning, not some garbage that isn't Tier 3.
D: So the real solution is, run Mental Misstep or Knight of the Reliquary. Awesome format you have there. Maybe you and Tom LaPille should sit down and talk about how awesome Great Sable Stag is.
Who says Mental Misstep needs to be answered? It's not Show and Tell into Emrakul. It's not Natural Order into Progenitus. It's not SFM into Batterskull. Mental Misstep doesn't need "answering" any more than Swords to Plowshares or Force of Will or Daze. It's not a game-winning play by itself and as such does not require an answer. It's simply a very strong tempo play.Quote:
Originally Posted by joemauer
The notion that you're required to run Mental Misstep in order to answer Mental Misstep is downright preposterous. The only time you're required to answer a card is if that card's resolution will unequivocally cause you to lose the game. If your deck is losing to a resolved Misstep, it's more likely a problem with your deck, not with Misstep.
If Misstep is actually a problem, (and I'm not convinced that it is,) it's because it pushes blue even further towards dominance, not because it's an objectively unfair card.
That horse couldn't be any deader. It's time to put down the whip.Quote:
Originally Posted by CorpT
Zoo would lose to Stoneblade even without Brainstorm. Stoneforge->Batterskull is what makes you lose. Not Brainstorm.Quote:
Originally Posted by CorpT
And why do they always have a Stoneforge? And a counter for my removal? You can't point to one card and say "this is why blue dominates". It has a critical mass of cards that are superior to cards in other colors. They include: Brainstorm, Mental Misstep, Force of Will and Jace. This combination of cards are the reason blue is dominating. Vengevine without Survival was nothing and Survival without Vengevine was just another Tier 2 deck. But together...Quote:
Originally Posted by majikal
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zilla
This. This. This.
If you haven't read this well laid post, please read.
What one mana card ends a game on the spot when countered by mental misstep?
No, it doesn't, and I'm not sure you understand what that phrase means. Begging the question does not refer to a situation in which a question is actually asked, it refers to a situation where A is true because of B and B is true because of A, but neither is an accepted premise.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
"Too good" would mean that it is either in a very large percentage of decks- at a guess, I would say that 2/3 is generally the red zone although it matters more for some card types than others- or that the card contributes to archetype or color stagnation.Quote:
How would you define as too good? A high representation in the Top 8? Abstract power? Relative power? Some other criteria?
But that's more of a call for looking at something to be banned, not necessarily the most prevalent card in that metagame. For instance, Force of Will was more common than Flash during GP: Flash, but Flash was the problem card that caused this shift.
Generally one should adopt a "least harm" approach to the banned list, which I think is the strongest argument for banning MM over Brainstorm if anything is to be banned.
I'm going to predict that Mental Misstep gets the axe tomorrow. Some random cards will probably come off the banned list, but I have no idea how the DCI decides what to unban.
Factors which make it likely for Mental Misstep to survive the banning tomorrow include the following:
- "Answer" cards are inherently less broken than "threats", and Mental Misstep does allow fair decks to fight against combos.
- Metagame has slowed down to some extent, so that control decks are more viable than previously.
- Despite the previous point, Mental Misstep has discouraged players from playing the really slow decks that often cause rounds to go overtime (Countertop and High Tide strategies).
- All colors--not just blue--now have access to answers against broken strategies like Storm.
- Despite the prevalence of Mental Misstep (with Top 16s often running ~80% of the allowable slots), there is a lot of variation in decks that play Mental Misstep. That is to say, Mental Misstep isn't central to their strategies or a defining feature of the deck. The strategy of Survival decks clearly revolved around that single card. Mystical Tutor combo decks made use of broken sorceries and instants, and Tutor allowed them to easily and quickly assemble the necessary combo and/or any protection pieces (even though I would argue that Mystical Tutor decks didn't make up a disproportionate percentage of the metagame, nor were they too successful).
However, here are the factors in favor of banning Misstep:
- The metagame now is clearly less diverse than it was from January to May. Decks like Goblins, Elves, Storm Combo, Countertop, and High Tide have fallen off the map. Despite their position as "Decks to Beat", I've noticed much less Rock, Zoo, and Merfolk than before (but they aren't extinct, just less played, which I think is fine in a healthy metagame). Regardless of whether you attribute these to other factors ("these decks are bad", "no one is willing to build their own deck", etc.), this point cannot be disputed.
- Getting your 1-drop Misstepped countered in the early game doesn't just mean your threat is getting answered, but that you are taking a brutal tempo beating in a format in which tempo is even more important than ever. For this reason, I have added Mental Misstep to all my blue decks, added Mental Misstep to all my non-blue decks that can accommodate it (non-linear strategies like Zoo and Maverick), and no longer play decks that cannot accommodate Mental Misstep (Storm, Elves, Dredge, etc.--and in my opinion, Goblins, even though I am aware many players do include MM).
- Even if all decks are able to cast Mental Misstep, the card is extremely strong in the early game (against a blind opponent, there is no single card I would rather see in my opening 7, even in multiples) and often a blank late during topdeck mode. Unfortunately, this has the consequence of making games swingier than ever. Similarly, it makes having Brainstorm more important than before. We have discussed the merits of banning Brainstorm, but it is because of Misstep that Brainstorm is more powerful than ever. (Personally, I think Brainstorm is overpowered, but it is a defining card of Legacy, intrinsic to the way it's played, so I would prefer it stays.)
- The card is an answer, but it is also a huge tempo play, and the alternate cost of just two life is way too low. I would not argue that it is "broken", but I can see why someone would based on that logic.
- The card sees way too much play, even more than Force of Will, Brainstorm, Tarmogoyf, etc. I don't think the ubiquity of a card is necessarily a bad thing, but many people do.
I personally don't think Mental Misstep is a card that needs to be banned, but it is a strong candidate for it. I will continue playing Legacy either way. I won't complain if it survives tomorrow, since it's probably my favorite card since Cursed Scroll, but I won't complain if it gets the axe either (and I would believe the format would be more fun as a result).
The results are up, but only a few of the Top 8 lists have been posted as of yet. I walked around at one point and wrote down a lot of the archetypes, if you're interested. (I saw about half the room.)Quote:
Originally Posted by crovakiet
http://www.northwestmagic.com/forums...ead.php?t=4585
Man i'd find it hilarious if somehow SFM, NO and SnT get banned tomorrow.Quote:
Originally Posted by ESG
Like laughing to no end.
I'd use this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_dominanceQuote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
I expect following:
Unbanned in legacy: Balance, Earthcraft, Land Tax.
Banned in Legacy: Mental Misstep, Brainstorm.
Unbanned in Modern: Mental Misstep.
My guesses for Tuesday,
-brainstorm and mental misstep banned in legacy
-grapeshot and empty the warrens banned in modern
-No changes in vintage, type II, other formats
Quote:
Originally Posted by swoop
I can't see Balance ever coming off the Legacy banned list.
Zilla I agree with basically everything you've said except for this post. If you think Mental Misstep isn't a game-winning play, you've probably never had Dark Ritual or High Tide Misstepped.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zilla
EDIT: My (tenuous) banlist predictions.
Legacy: Misstep banned. Maybe Earthcraft or Mind Twist will come off, but I don't feel too confident about that.
Modern: Emrakul and Rite of Flame banned. Either Jace and/or Ancestral Visions unbanned.
Because they mulligan until they find it.Quote:
Originally Posted by CorpT
A. Because it's a deck full of counters.Quote:
Originally Posted by CorpT
B. Ancestral Visions.
C. Dig spells which could just as easily be Ponder or Preordain in that deck and not even make a difference.
Wait, just a second ago you were arguing that Brainstorm was the sole reason blue was dominating. Which is it?Quote:
Originally Posted by CorpT
edit- RE: http://www.northwestmagic.com/forums...ead.php?t=4585
It seems apparent to me that decks with a strategy based around tutoring and cheating mana costs are the ones actually dominating. Blaming Mental Misstep seems misguided. I honestly expect Natural Order to get the axe tomorrow, first of all. Secondly, Stoneforge Mystic is a candidate, however I think that it can be suppressed by decks that lose to Natural Order if NO gets banned. Show and Tell is also somewhat likely, but it doesn't tutor so they might leave it alone, even if it is obnoxious.
This is for sure one of the hardest B&R changes to call because Modern is going to get turned upside down if Wizards has any common sense at all.
My guesses, not what I want to happen, just guesses.
Legacy
Stoneforge Mystic- Banned
Mind Twist- Unbanned
Earthcraft- Unbanned
Modern
Rite of Flame- Banned
Emrakul- Banned
Scapeshift- Banned
Valakut- Unbanned
Ancestral Visions- Unbanned
Golgari Grave-Troll- Unbanned
Quote:
Originally Posted by joemauer
- The fact that you are comparing SotF with MMS invalidates your position. MMS is a counterspell that only hits cmc1 spells while SotF is a win condition that can tutor 4/3 hasty dudes on turn 2/3. They are abou as comparable as an Island to Black Lotus.
Whenever Mental Misstep hitting Dark Ritual or High Tide actually wins a game it will most of the time be due to one (or both) of two things:Quote:
Originally Posted by Admiral_Arzar
1) The Combo player is just bad.
2) He's being pressured quite hard thus having to just go for it unprotected. In this case, Mental Misstep didn't actually win the game. It was just the last card played.
-Don't waste your time with him. He's obviously has an agenda against blue decks/cards/things.Quote:
Originally Posted by majikal
- I worried my rhetorical question poorly.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
Quote:
"Too good" would mean that it is either in a very large percentage of decks- at a guess, I would say that 2/3 is generally the red zone although it matters more for some card types than others- or that the card contributes to archetype or color stagnation.
But that's more of a call for looking at something to be banned, not necessarily the most prevalent card in that metagame. For instance, Force of Will was more common than Flash during GP: Flash, but Flash was the problem card that caused this shift.
Generally one should adopt a "least harm" approach to the banned list, which I think is the strongest argument for banning MM over Brainstorm if anything is to be banned.
- So in other words you have only a vague idea of what would need to be banned using your criteria? Do you think MM should be banned over brainstorm? Do you think either should be banned?
This is exactly what I'm talking about. Mental Misstep isn't overpowered just because it makes combo play fair with non-blue decks. I mean I'm sure it was nice having a 70% matchup vs. Zoo/Goblins/Rock/Sligh decks for the past 7 years, but now a days there is finally a relevant SB cards vs. combo. I personally don't think Misstep countering a Ritual effect that would have won you the game for free qualifies it as particularly ban worthy. On the contrary I think that is the exact reason it should never be banned.Quote:
Originally Posted by Admiral_Arzar