So how is this card any different than the current hate out there? Reanimator already knows how to deal with the current hate. The same cards are applicable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Water_Wizard
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So how is this card any different than the current hate out there? Reanimator already knows how to deal with the current hate. The same cards are applicable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Water_Wizard
Wait... why didn't anyone tell me that GSZ was the strategy of this deck? I've just been casting dudes and turning them sideways! I've been doing it all wrong!
Now I have to give back all the money I've won. :cry:
At least someone can make light of this situation :smile:Quote:
Originally Posted by majikal
It seems much more productive than calling me a terrible player :smile:
<InterestingMan>I don't always cast Green Sun's Zenith, but when I do, I cast it every turn.</InterestingMan>
I do find that most games I'm casting GSZ frequently. The deck derives its consistency and power from the flexibility of GSZ, rather than just running out some dorks from the hand. However, simply just casting SFM and ignore GSZ for the game is a fine strategy too.
Like Esper3K said a few posts ago, it can't be Pithing Needled. Tormod's Crypt, Relic of Progenitus, Nihil Spellbomb and Scavenging Ooze can all be turned off by Needle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Avatar of Shadow
Additionally, Cage is a constant effect. Unlike other artifact hate, which you must sacrifice to use (sans-Relic's 1-of ability), Cage is constant. Ooze must be activated and usually isn't online until turn 3 and can only target as many cards as you have green mana open.
You can bounce Cage, like you can bounce Leyline of the Void, but usually you know when to expect Leyline. Cage is colorless and can be run in any deck, making it more difficult to sideboard against, unless you just come to expect it.
Certainly GSZ is one of the backbone cards of the deck, but shutting out GSZ alone hardly kills us (unlike how badly this card wrecks other decks like Dredge).
Agreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Esper3k
What concerns me about Cage is how quickly it shuts of GSZ. It's true, Teeg and Aven Mindcensor shut down GSZ as well (or significantly hinder it in the case of the latter), but they aren't active until turn 2 at earliest and we have readily available removal (Karakas, STP, PTE, Punishing Fire for Teeg and the same sans-Karakas for Mindcensor). With Cage, we have 1-3 cards maindeck that shut it down, depending on how many we run (Qasali Pridemage), which we now have to draw naturally.
What I'm worried about is Game 2 when I'm on the draw and I keep a 2 lander because I'm relying on Turn 1 GSZ->Dryad Arbor and they drop a turn 1 Cage. Now I need to wait until I have 3 mana to activate Pridemage or Krosan Grip, because I'm not running my Pridemage out there without sac mana up.
Cage just hits the board rather quickly, as opposed to the other GSZ hate available and we have less removal available for Cage.
Changing the topic to something hopefully a little less controversial, I think Garruk Relentless has found a spot in my sideboard. Currently, I put it in the Thrun spot, as a card to bring in against Control (UW), Nic Fit and Pox. I've been having trouble with sweepers (WOG, Damnation and Pernicious Deed), which Thrun does not survive. Additionally, against Pox, I've found it hard to climb out from under turn 1 Liliana.
Ideally, I would like to run both Garruk Relentless and Thrun, but right now I can't find the extra spot (sans moving Thrun to the main, which I don't feel is right for Punishing Mav). Thrun has definitely won me games and I like the fact that he is a GSZ target (at least until Cage prints, ha ha), but I like the fact that I can create a creature every turn, lightning bolt an opponent's creature and search a creature out of my deck with Garruk (potentially circumventing Grafdigger's Cage, if and when that becomes an issue).
Sure it's going to hurt us some but as far as hate goes, I think it's pretty soft compared to things that truly wreck us like Perish or Deed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Water_Wizard
If only we had maindeck slots dedicated to removing pesky artifacts. :(
Now that's just crazy talk.Quote:
Originally Posted by majikal
I don't see dangerous from new Cage, its rather poor strategy vs Maverick. It shut down 4 cards in deck, also we have MD answers (Qasali) and more on sb.
Btw which archetype would play Cage ? This is already much better hate vs Maverick - Cursed Totem, but it's still not enough since you can bring Engineered Explosives/Krosan vs it, so no worries.
BTW: Congrats for everyone playing well this archtype - we are still DTB nr1 with quite huge advantage over next deck :)
Sure GSZ is good. But would any of you as a zoo pilot side in Teeg to stop GSZ from resolving, even if you were playing versus GW Mav without punishing fire??
Good point Artlee. I normally board out Teeg againt other GSZ decks unless they run Jace or Natural Order in addition. The new Cage is merely an annoyance like Teeg is; but a little tricker to remove. I'm starting to change the Thrun for Elspeth. Thrun has been really underwhelming in non-control matchups. Having the PW helps the aggro matchups much more than Thrun.
Thoughts on maindeck Thrun vs. Elspeth?
+1 for Elspeth. She closes games a lot faster than Thrun and doesn't require the mana to stick around in sticky situations.
Elspeth gives every deck trouble. And your dudes randomly get over moat. Give that Scryb double flying.
When I see an opposing Thrun the idea is to stall him out and get to victory by other means (i.e. Jace, flying over your dudes or cloning him).
I must ask people's opinion on the dysynergy between Teeg and Elspeth.
Don't play Teeg when you anticipate needing Elspeth? We still run Karakas to bounce Teeg when we need to.Quote:
Originally Posted by bakofried
No contest, Elspeth. You have to anticipate Wrath, Perish, etc. coming in from the sideboard against a lot of decks, where Elspeth is much better and even harder to remove. Elspeth is also much better against aggro. It's randomly good against crap like Progenitus, Moat, and slow board control decks too.Quote:
Originally Posted by rukcus
In pretty much every matchup where you would want a resilient 4-cc bomb, I like Elspeth better. In the other matchups (i.e. most combo decks), you'd be boarding both out anyway.
I may be weird, but I've been liking Thrun myself, even against aggro decks.
His Hexproof and good p/t make him a crazy wall that a lot of aggro decks have a tough time getting through. Maybe I've been burned too many times by a Knight getting Pathed/Submerged, but I've rarely been saddened to see Thrun.
Obvs, him being able to be GSZ'd is a large factor in playing him as a 1-of vs a 1-of Elspeth.
I beg, I just beg my enemies are idiotic enough to board in the cage against me. I mean... thats hillarious... It would shut off 4 cards - and as said we run 1-3 maindeckanswers ROFL ROFL ROFL
Please do so, my dear opponents..
I run one of each in the MD and it has been awesome for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by rukcus
And Teeg also, or no?Quote:
Originally Posted by majikal
Already made the switch (about a week ago). Especially helpful in knocking out an opposing Elspeth, as most of UW is running 1 md and 1 sb now.Quote:
Originally Posted by rukcus
They aren't bringing it in just against you, but against the field. Look at the top 16 from the recent SCG LA - http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckd...ion=Show+DecksQuote:
Originally Posted by Philipp802
4 Maverick
2 Stoneblade
2 Reanimator
3 RUG
1 Team America (RWU)
1 Dredge
1 AggroLoam
1 Belcher
1 Eureka
Cage affects 13 out of these 16 decks. 3 are significantly affected (Reanimator/Dredge) and 10 are partially affected in terms of GSZ or Snapcaster. So, Cage represent a potential meta shift, which will lead to an uncertain meta for a time. However, Maverick has been notoriously resilient in adapting to new metas.
My major concerns are decks that will be running Cage as a 1-of with tutor capability (Enlightened Tutor, Tezzeret, Trinket Mage, etc.). I think we will be seeing a shift in meta and who knows what will come up or become popular. As I predicted earlier, I think it will shift to each extreme - combo players will have their reawakening and control, namely CounterTop will make a comeback. The current meta is right down the middle - neither aggro or control, and personally, I like it.
A secondary concern is the Anti-Legacy Legacy deck. Since this card impacts so much of the current meta, a deck may arise that is just created to hate on common decks. This happens in Classic. For example, check out this deck: http://decks.mtgoacademy.com/Decks.aspx?ID=77487 It looks like a piece of junk! 4 Maindeck Trygon Predator, 4 Qasali's Pridemage and 2 Nature's Claim? But when you consider the 2 major decks in Classic are Oath of Druids and Shop (Artifacts), you can understand how this deck can do well. So, my concern is players will craft a deck just to hate the meta and Cage will be a cornerstone, causing Mav to get caught up in the crossfire.
As always, we won't know until it happens. Furthermore, not even half of Dark Ascension has been spoiled, so there may be some answers or other surprises lurking in the set. For the time being, I think we just have to agree to disagree. Most posters think Cage will have little to no effect on Maverick, some people even welcome the change, viewing Cage as a weak answer to Maverick. People like me remain cautious, as we realize what a potential impact Grafdigger's Cage most likely will have on the meta.
Maverick is that hate deck.
How can anyone say cage is good against maverick? You forget they are doing their first turn nothing, and they play 4 cards to counter your 4gsz, sounds like an even trade? and often I don't need to gsz I just play a stoneforge/knight form hand and beat them to dead.
Why is nobody discussing Thalia? That card is the complete Nuts for maverick. We have a maindeckable good answer to combo now, it is good vs aggro ( first strike ! ) perish proof. And the minor mana disruption helps the wasteland plan. I think Maverick is going to be the dread of the format after this set.
Isn't already Dread of the Legacy ? :)
Anyway I don't like Thalia - its nice taxing vs combo, but we taxing also our removal and GSZ, which isn't too good for us, I think it's rather belong to D&T than Maverick.
Yes, but most of the time you can affort paying 2 mana for a stp, ok zenithing for a knigh becomes harder, But I think your opponent is going to have way ore problems with Thalia.
Think about it. Vs control-ish decks. Jace suddently costs 5 mana ( ! ) They can't tap out anymore because Fow and daze costs mana. Snapcaster mage also loses a lot of value.
Agaist dredge and reanimator. Also very very good. I think dredge can just GG against Thalia and a wasteland turn 2. Even without wasteland it'll be gg.
Against merfolk. A 2/1 firstriker is also pretty handy, and again, shuts of their counter package.
And goblins just rolls over and dies to a 2/1 firstriker turn 2 with a turn 1 mor. ( Not that goblins still sees a lot of play)
I can name advantages to Talia all day long
even more so if we compare her to aven mindcensor
Thalia is in no way more advantageous to Thorns in the matchups where that effect matters. being non-Green is a big deal; Thorn of Amethyst we can tutor with Enlightened.
I can't see how Thalia is better for this deck than Thorn of Amethyst.
Thalia Attacks/blocks/firststrikes/picksup equipment? How is that not better then a thorn :-S explain plx.
Maverick has played aven mincensor for ages, minor disruption with a 2/1 flying body. I find thalia much better in that spot. ( If you dislike that spot, I can see you also dislike Thalia, But I have won tournaments on aven mindcensor :) ) ((( European Meta perhaps )))
It annoys the opponent, not so much you. and there is just so much synergy with the deck. ( How often do you win games on the back of wasteland, Thalia complements that plan )
But I have to be honest, haven't tested it yet. But I will!
Think about the role Thalia/Thorn plays in this deck. When would you bring in an effect that taxes non-creature spells?
Think about how early you would want that effect - which of the tutor packages allows you to find one rather than the other?
I would play it maindeck instead of my 3 aven mincensors :)
So a turn 1 noble followed up with a turn 2 thalia and a wasteland sounds like a Really good play :).
Against what deck isn't a non creature tax effect good? Against which DTB would Thalia suck at the moment? and you don't have to forget a 2/1 first striker non green is usefell all by itself!
Thalia just dissables so many T1 cards/stratgies.
Remember compare it with the aven mindcensor slot!
Thalia seems incredibly good in this deck. It is fantastic against any blue deck and combo deck and is much better then thorn of amethyst because it's a creature. You can protect it with mother or even karakas giving you a protected lock against certain decks and just a great tool to slow them down against others. 2/1 first strike is not bad either as it chops up small dorks all day.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Dieth
I can definately see three main deck with a slight adjustment to play less top heavy non-creatures to accomodate it.
Thalia would be sick in some vial build by the way, really makes me want to test some sort of vial deck.
If you're using her against combo, using Karakas to bounce her seems abuot the same as them removing her... She seems like she doesn't fit Maverick just because GSZ can't grab her (so you wont want to run a single version of her...), she is legendary so having multiples sucks and obviously Enlightened Tutor can't grab her. I can't comment on how viable she is with a Vial build as I've always used GSZ.
Instead of running Etutor, you might want to replace it with Worldly Tutor. It can fetch up Cannonist, Teeg or Thalia (Or even any creature in the deck.)
iScare, all but one of those cards can already be searched for by the deck. And the land portion of Worldly Tutor is already blown away by KotR. Plus if you ran Worldly instead you'd need to replace stuff like Choke, Ensnaring Bridge, Jitte, and so on with men or lands that fill those often singleton board slots.
Worldly Tutor doesn't search for lands. You're thinking of Living Wish.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leftconsin
Why would you replace choke if you stopped running E. Tutor?
There's only 2 matchups where I board in both Choke and E-tutor: High Tide and Hive Mind. Or more generally, slow Blue-based combo decks. Trying to find Choke with E-tutor is a waste of SB slots - I haven't found that many dead cards against the controlling blue decks to afford both Choke and Tutor; and so I don't board in tutor.
Maybe Tutor-Sideboards are generally outdated. I played my last Sideboard with E-Tutor in a GP-Trial for Grand Prix Amsterdam and I don't felt comfortable with it.
You may search a bomb in any given matchup, but there's always the danger for a bad trade und you give information to your opponent. I don't think the risk is it worth when you can get there with another Sideboard.
I've not had good luck with Choke against High Tide. Once they start going off, Choke's effect doesn't matter because they are untapping all of their Islands anyway. I know there are the times we could catch them off guard, but usually we drop Choke on turn 2/3, they may have 1 or 2 tapped islands. They wait until the have 3 untapped, High Tide, Turnabout and combo off. I've never tried it against Hive Mind, but I imagine the same to be true. I guess the reality is against both of these deck (High Tide and Hive Mind), we have so many dead cards to take out that it doesn't make sense not to board in Choke. Ruckus, using your SCGLA list against High Tide, I'm +2 Canonist, +2 Choke, +2 E Tutor, - 4 STP, - 1 Terravore (dies with Time Spiral), -1 Thrun (too slow) I would do the same against Hive Mind except +1 Metamorph/-1 Jitte. Is this what you do?Quote:
Originally Posted by rukcus
I switched to a non-E-tutor sideboard. I still haven't played very many games with it, but I'll report back when I do. It's interesting that the Europe meta Maverick players play non-E tutor boards while the American meta Maverick players all play E tutor sideboards. Is each right for their own meta or is one a better build?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bierbaron
Compare Decks 1 & 4 (although not 11 & 15) http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...cy-Event-Top16
with Decks 1, 4, 5 & 9 http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckd...ion=Show+Decks
Thoughts?