Is there ever a time where it is correct to Show and Tell an eldrazi vs. a deck that isn't pox or loam? I have had times when I was playing and somewhere along the way I happened to have Show and Tell and some eldrazi in my hand.
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Is there ever a time where it is correct to Show and Tell an eldrazi vs. a deck that isn't pox or loam? I have had times when I was playing and somewhere along the way I happened to have Show and Tell and some eldrazi in my hand.
Just think about what colors you opponent is playing, and therefore, what removal. Against Merfolk and RUG decks send in the Eldrazi. But be weary of any deck that can use Lily, Jace, Karakas, ect to ruin your day.Quote:
Originally Posted by 203995014
Or more appropriately, have their removal needled if possible. I have won games this way, but in NO way is it every my plan A, B, C, or D. It is significantly further down the alphabet. more P/O/NQuote:
Originally Posted by That nice guy
have you stopped playing miracles?Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce
I did show & tell a Glen Elendra Archmage today however. Assuming the Show would get countered. Could've lost that game. But ner.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
I just did against Death & Taxes yesterday and it won me the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by 203995014
Speaking of which, first time playing the RUG list and played some weird decks. 2-0 versus BUG something or other (had Lilly, Jace and Loam, but I'm really not sure what his end game was), 0-2 versus High Tide, 0-2 versus Oops all Spells (I outsmarted myself and punted the second game), 2-1 versus Death & Taxes, 1-2 versus Tin Fins.
The situation I am referring to, the D&T player had a Mother of Runes, a Phyrexian Revoker on Sensei's Divining Top, an Aether Vial, and an Aven Mindcensor. He only had a single card in hand, so I went for Show and Tell. Because of the Mindcensor, I decided to Show in Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre instead of Primeval Titan. Whatever he had in his hand, it couldn't deal with Ulamog, and I won a couple turns later.
Yeah ill rifle off a SnT anytime against anything blue. Unless they have high pressure on you the penalty is low if you put in something crap. I've been showing in cloudposts from time to time when I'm on the ramp>map>eye path.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
yes, that's what this implies ^^ :)Quote:
Originally Posted by apple713
Version I've been tinkering with:
// Lands
2 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [MR] Cloudpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [LG] Karakas
2 [LRW] Island (1)
4 [R] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [RLM] Glacial Chasm
// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
// Spells
2 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [GP] Repeal
3 [US] Show and Tell
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map
1 [ON] Chain of Vapor
3 [LRW] Ponder
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 4 [THS] Swan Song
SB: 3 [CS] Commandeer
SB: 2 [EVE] Glen Elendra Archmage
SB: 2 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
Unsure about MBT versus Flusterstorm in the side. Trying to find a logical resolution of Commandeer/Glen Elendra with the other free/cheap counters of Swansong/Fluster. Still considering Disrupting Shoal, at which point I would go back to Flusterstorms over commandeer/MBT.
I usually prefer Flusterstorm because it's good as a general purpose counter vs. decks with a plan similar to Pox. Mindbreak Trap on the other hand it's only really relevant vs. Storm or combo decks that cast multiple spells in a turn and it will counter an uncounterable spell if you're lucky.
Then again maybe I'm just boarding wrong.
Why Chain of Vapor over Snap?
:u: versus :1::u:Quote:
Originally Posted by 203995014
Target non-land vs. target creature
And... we can win out if the opponent decides to start a sac land war.
It's a utility issue.
You combo with candelabra, or top, and can bounce lilly/Vial. All things Snap doesn't do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mockingbird
Hey guys, with all this hype about Depths.deck i've found that recurring wastelands are getting more and more common, so i'm happy to keep needles maindeck. I'm also convinced that the newest hatebear, SoL, will soon receive the attention it really merits. I mean, it cripples the 90% of the tier deck in the meta, why should it be considered a sb card? For this reason i've dropped the Ponder plan (and i'm glad i did, it doesn't really fit my playstyle). Taking ideas here and there and adding my own distorted cerebral waves, i've come to this:
// Lands
2 Vesuva
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Island
4 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Forest
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Cavern of Souls
// Creatures
4 Primeval Titan
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Trinket Mage
// Spells
1 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Crop Rotation
4 Brainstorm
4 Repeal
4 Show and Tell
3 Expedition Map
2 Pithing Needle
The sb is the thing i'm less sure about, but whatever...
// Sideboard
SB: 2 Submerge
SB: 4 Swan Song
SB: 3 Extract
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 All is Dust
SB: 1 Venser, Shaper Savant
Extract: i was tired to play defensively against ANT (TES is not represented in my area and i feel that overall is a worse deck) so having a "turn1 i win button" is amazing, it's really a 1-card combo vs them. Ops, i've just exiled your only winning condition from your deck! Comes in handy against omnitell too, removing their lonely Emrakul.
Engineered Explosives: again, with Lands on the rise it's easier to face Chalice of the void too, and this is a nice thing i can tutor with Trinket Mages to solve the problem long enough to drop my artifacts, play my bs and set the board to beat them soundly. It's pretty handy against Delver deck, in particular UWR, where you can blow flying insects and overgrown germs setting it at 0.
Swan Song/Flusterstorm: counterspells for combo matchups mainly. I think i side them in pretty rarely compared to the most of you, i use them only if i really see something that can combo me out, or is impacting like Blood Moon/Price of Progress.
All is Dust/Submerge: Team America/BUG Delver/Elves are on the rise too, so packing sweepers isn't a bad thing. All is Dust is MUCH better than Oblivion Stone in my opinion, Abrupt Decay is a thing in all these matchups and i prefere something that doesn't blow my precious artifacts together with all the rest. All is dust really owns Deathblade and Esperblade too.
Venser, Shaper Savant: he's here for Omnitell, Sneak&Show, Reanimator, UW Miracle. Nothing special, but he helped me many times, so i trust him.
Please let me know what you think!
Hi guys,
so why exactly are cards like Horn of Greed, Retraced Image or Summer Bloom ruled out in this deck?
I've searched the thread and saw that these cards were at least mentioned, but nobody gave any reason why they could be worse than other cards we have in here.
Could anyone enlighten me on this?
I have been playing 12 post for the last couple of years but with the resurgence of waste/loam. I have been trying out rectum-tell again for the next little bit.
I do not like trying to fight recurring wastes
Short answer is this is a control deck, not a ramp deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seirei
As stated, the short answer is that this is a control deck and not a ramp deck. Longer answer to follow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seirei
Retraced Image, in particular, is absolutely awful. Looking at the lists that people commonly run, there's not a whole lot you could even put in, and even less that you'd actually want to. I guess you could use it to double up on Primeval Titan, but that screams "win more" from the rooftops. If one is on the battlefield, odds are pretty good the opponent can't deal with it as it is, otherwise it probably would immediately eat a removal spell. It also means you would have to hold another Titan in hand...for reasons. Basically, it would involve me wasting a slot in my hand - a slot that I could put back on top of my library with Brainstorm and shuffle out or otherwise move away with Ponder, Sensei's Divining Top, fetchlands, or whatever, in favor of grabbing a card that can help me with my current situation. Probably the only real way the card would be used would be to get another land onto the battlefield...but it has to be a land you already have out. Exploration does way more to accomplish this role, and it does it better. Speaking of which, I'll get back to Exploration momentarily.
Speaking of ramp decks and Exploration, before I had access to Force of Will and duals, I tweaked the deck to make it monogreen and I made it a ramp deck. I ran cards like Exploration, Horn of Greed, and the hilarious budget rare Clear the Land: a card which even most Magic veterans have to actually stop and look at to determine what it does. When the deck really hummed, I could hard-cast Emrakul, the Aeons Torn turn 4, turn 3 with a little luck, and turn 2 a single time with an accidental assist from my opponent (which was absolutely hilarious). Most of the time, though, the deck just flat-out fell on its face. If my opponent had any disruption, I was in trouble. If my opponent could combo out quicker, I was in trouble.
The big problem with all of these cards is actually pretty simple: the cards do absolutely nothing by themselves. Dropping Horn of Greed, for example, won't even pay out for you the first turn you could play it, assuming you get it out. If your opponent takes his turn, drops a land (netting a card), and then destroys it, you've actively helped your opponent and cost him little to nothing. If you don't pull a land off the top rope, it's still doing you nothing. Exploration suffers the same problem. While combining it with Horn makes it stronger late, it still, again, does nothing by itself. Compare this to the RUG or U/G lists. How many cards are "do nothing"? Really, probably the only one is Show and Tell, and even that's a bad example since there will nearly always be something you can use it on, and quite often, a resolved Show basically wins you the game outright.
Okay, thanks for the indepht review.
I already thought these cards may be too situational, but you raise some good points.
Why are we mainboarding Bojuka Bog instead of Glacial Chasm? Isn't Glacial Chasm going to be much more relevant? It also gives us an out vs. fast aggro G1 which we don't really have G1 and works vs. Dredge also.
With only 1 Chain of Vapor to be Repeal 5, I think you may want to try to use the slot to try Stroke of Genius (or maybe -1 Top), but you can go back to my thoughts from my testing it on the previous pages. While my opinion hasn't changed that much, I'm still running the one, which is saying something in favor of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
is jund considered a bad matchup? i figured it was close to a bye, but it seems like turn1 drs, turn2 liliana is pretty annoying for the deck. especially if they get a hymn/waste as well.
Jund matchup isn't the best one to play against. This deck just has a very hard time winning when Jund curves out and the deck also runs Wasteland and discard combined.Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce
what's everyone take on kozilek, is he really necessary, i've piloted the deck for last 8 weeks and am 31-4-1 w/o it and 29-2-1 w/ 0 candelabras. just curious if the kozilek is actually needed and if itis, for what reason.
there were maybe 2-3 instances in all of my 36 matches that i was flooded w/o a SDT and no crop rotation for eye of ugin to win where it would be an extra bomb to draw that would win the game, but i am more often find myself fighting to survive long enough to play or S&T (matchup dependant) a titan or hard cast ulamog (and/or emrakul).
most games vs aggro are either titan -> win or hide behind glacial chasm long enough to titan and then win.
most games vs control are just play my lands -> win
most games vs combo are crop rotation into bojuka bog or karakas g1 and then g2/g3 bring in 13 counterspells and pray.
I'm gonna quote myself here, from earlier:Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce
I've never regretted running a Kozilek. Now I'm running the RUG list, and I even cast one into a Standstill the other day. That's still card advantage for me, even if Kozilek ends up getting countered. Actually, that game in particular, I ended up casting Kozilek three times: my opponent had Liliana of the Veil and Jace, the Mind Sculptor out. I had Karakas, though, and the never ending stream of card advantage eventually won me the day.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zotmaster
i understand the obvious merits of the card, but i fail to understand the specific matchups where you need him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zotmaster
All of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce
It's not match-ups you need Kozilek, it's situations. Primary one being topdecking or stuck on 8-10 mana, which yes, it happens, and it's frustrating. And the reason I still play Kozilek even though I'm playing Stroke of Genius is because 1. Draw power that dodges counter magic 2. it's a respectable body 3. His grave trigger is my most likely chance to recycle Cloudposts that have fallen to Wasteland.
can you pm/post your list and metagame?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mockingbird
Currently:Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce
//Lands: 24
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Island
2 Vesuva
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
//Creatures: 7
4 Primeval Titan
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
//Artifacts: 10
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
3 Expedition Map
2 Pithing Needle
3 Sensei's Divining Top
//Instants: 13
4 Brainstorm
4 Crop Rotation
4 Repeal
1 Stroke of Genius
//Sorceries: 6
3 Ponder
3 Show and Tell
//Sideboard: 15
4 Force of Will
4 Swan Song
3 Flusterstorm
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Pithing Needle
1 Glacial Chasm
It's a mess, but it has a decent win record (i'm 70%, which is not likely as good as Rock Lee) between this and my MUD-Post deck. I play mostly online for budget and player base reasons, but the metagame there right now is mostly BUG and Elves!. It's annoying because I put Pithing Needle back in the main not primarily to call Wasteland, and it's almost all B(x)(y) Control decks. I can handle most of them unless they decide to get cute early with hand destruction or in the case of elves, do an "Oops, I just won" move. While I see other decks as well, the only thing I note is the lack of combo decks lately. I'm sure they're there, but I just dodge them a lot.
So I'm looking to pick this deck back up after giving it a rest for a couple of months. It's just too much fun. However, the new flavor of the month in my local meta is DnT and that just feels like a pretty unfavorable matchup (correct me if I'm wrong). Is the best option to fight DnT still Chain of Vapor in the main? There's got to be something better out there, though U and G don't exactly give you the best tools to fight hatebears. I'm thinking O-stone is still a decent option though revoker does spoil the fun. All is dust is probably too expensive if they have any decent start. I might just choose to ignore it and see how it goes with the 3 ponders maindeck as I'm somewhat of a "purist" when it comes to lists, but I def don't feel confident in the matchup.
I think that basics and repeal/pithing needle on vial or bolt/bonfire their board is the way to approach the matchup.Quote:
Originally Posted by ac3eb
also just executing your game plan works well. crop rotating in response to port or wasteland and pithing needle on wasteland/vial/port in that order. if they can't abuse vial, they cant afford to port as much.Quote:
Originally Posted by kingtk3
it's definitely a tough matchup but it's easier than jund since they give you a lot more time and don't interact w/ your hand
My musings on the current meta/post-builds:
Is The new spirit a problem? Yes. But does it warrant cutting my sweet, sweet ponders? IDK. I run 4 ponder in my very focused list, BTW, it's amazing. And since almost every win I've ever had against D&T has come from a show-> Prime, I think that it won't matter much.
I've been considering cutting 2 Ponder for 2 Trinket Mage since the meta has seemed to slow a bit, and then cut another Ponder for a Engineered Explosives in the main. This would also tempt me into putting one chalice in the side. BUT, Aven Mindsensor has something to say about me trying this. IDK, but I will test it and let you guys know if you're interested. Also, I miss a single Mox Diamond in the main.
The only other thing I've been considering testing is running a Eureka or two with a Chasm in the main, considering that there are a lot of times when my only path to victory seems to be getting a Prime Time ASAP (Merfolk, D&T, RUG w/ 1st turn delver). What do you guys think. I think it's bad, but worth a shot. I just wish I could run 6 Show & Tell!
This version I brought to my local weekly meta as prep for SCG NJ this weekend. Split the finals with another 12post list, but lost when we played the game out. As anyone who reads this thread and plays this deck knows, metagaming the maindeck to beat the non-mirror means that losing the mirror is an easy task. This was the list I used:
// Lands
2 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [MR] Cloudpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [LG] Karakas
2 [LRW] Island (1)
4 [R] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [RLM] Glacial Chasm
1 [R] Forest (1)
// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
3 [ZEN] Oracle of Mul Daya
// Spells
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [GP] Repeal
3 [US] Show and Tell
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map
1 [ME4] Candelabra of Tawnos
2 [LRW] Ponder
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 3 [THS] Swan Song
SB: 2 [EVE] Glen Elendra Archmage
SB: 3 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 3 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
I will likely test with 0 ponders, 2 candelabra, 1 trinket mage, as Oracle has been quite deliciously overkill as intended, with Ponder not being fully necessary.
What is the main reason for oracle? Also, why revokers instead of needles in the side?
With the deck purely sideboarded against combo, I have found zero problem beating combo in 3. So Oracle allows an equally strong maindeck against midrange/aggro/tempo. Needle I still loathe, and was only needling sneak attack/griselbrand, and wishing I could needle Heritage druid/Lion's Eye Diamond/Lotus Petal in addition to Sneak Attack/Griselbrand/Aether Vial. Revoker hits these, while also providing colorless blockers versus Mother of Runes and Healing Salve'ing against highly aggressive decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by kingtk3
needle is still great vs wasteland and liliana as well as a lot of other targets such as sneak attack/griseldaddy. i do like access to it but you can play around hate cards w/o needles but you lean a lot heavier on crop rotation then.
For Reference this is the list Rock played against:
1 Kozilek, butcher of truth
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Emrakul the Aeons torn
4 Primeval Titain
2 Trinket Mage
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Expedition Map
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
2 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Crop Rotation
3 Repeal
4 Brainstorm
4 Show and Tell
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Forest
2 Island
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
1 Karakas
1 Eye of Ugin
3 Vesuva
4 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
Side:
4 Force of will
3 Fluster Storm
3 Swan Song
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Glen, Elendra Archmage
3 Gut Shot
Went 4:0 playing against Nic fit, Burn, Death and Taxes, and 12 Post, Dropping Games to 12 Post and Burn.
I brought Gut shot in against DNT but it didn't seem to make a difference to the game, I am probably going to switch them to something more relevant in the match, perhaps Phyrexian Revoker.
Chasm Main saved me verse burn, buying me time to drop 3 Primeval Titian and gain a bunch of life.
I don't understand why there is so much inconsistencies with this deck between the lists...
Some people run 0-3 Pithing Needle, some people run 2-4 Expedition maps.
Most people run 4 Repeal but some are running 3?
Some people run 3 Sensei's divining top, but most run 4.
Some people run 3 Crop rotation, others run 4.
There is also debate on number of Candelabras 0, 1 or 2.
EDIT: Also, most people are on 3 Show on Tells, but some are now on 4?
The other issue is the number of Vesuvas. Some people went down to 2, but it looks like they are running some amount of Ponders also and 25 lands.
I am running 27 lands w/ 3 Vesuva and 1 Cavern of souls. Trying 5th fetch over 3rd basic Island.
Then there are the other slots like Ponders, Trinket mage(s), Oblivion Stones, Engineered explosives, Bonfire of the damned.
Why is there no consensus on all of this?
Not sure if this is trolling due to illiteracy or just lethargy. The incredibly expansive mana pool available allows for wide deck variation. This is covered many times over this thread. Also Changes in the meta provoke great change in control decks, and this is a control deck at its heart.Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce
If the answer was obvious then there would be no need for the very thread you posted your comment inQuote:
Originally Posted by sauce