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Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
I don't think I'd be comfortable with less than four Crucibles (or conceivably three). I think the reasons have been chewed on often enough, but just for the hell of it:
I can't think of many non-combo decks that aren't susceptible to Waste/Crucible. If that was the only thing, okay. But it also helps alleviate the big beater problem with Factories (incidentally protecting one of the very few real win conditions), and offsets the disadvantage inherent in the mana base (Diamonds, Cities, and - indirectly - Tombs; which makes the early game more stable as well as faster). Smokestack is kind of slow. Well, with Crucible it's faster. (Plus, it gets rid of "dead" Crucibles). I can now play Armageddon even if I'm behind instead of just when I'm on the offensive (which makes taxing better). It makes my Factories attack into Bobs.
A first- or second-turn Crucible does not do nothing. It may do nothing now, but if it'll do impressive stuff a little later, that's fine. It's not like I'm going for the tenth-turn win.
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Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
@crucible
In all honesty I would never go down to less than 3 crucibles. If I were to run less than 4, it will be 3. I don't actually mind having 3 as I usually don't need it in my opening hand. Crucible is good as counter bait at times,it gets better with smokestack, armageddon and wastelock. It will be hard to compare as vintage stax run 3 crucibles, one thing about vintage stax is that they run tutors, and they don't run main deck armageddons. I still think crucible is essential to the decks strategy. If I were forced to drop a crucible, for a better card, I would drop it to 3 and no less.
@debates for certain cards
If you have made your point, and do not wish to change your view, I find that there is no need to flame and discuss it further. You can not force your point of view on someone. Lets be constructive.
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Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
Yes, I apologize. I get a little... heated at times. Sorry for my rants and whatnot.
Anyway, I really would like to increase Horizon Canopy, but I don't know if I like the risk. It sucks that it deals you damage, but I like seeing it reliably, and it adds another source of :g: for my SB options. Any thoughts?
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Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
Oh my god, you guys posted alot of crap during the weekend. About the Cucible issue, Nihil pretty much summed it up:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nihil Credo
I've written it elsewhere in this thread, and you can ask other people to back me up on this: you must run 4 Crucible of Worlds in Stax, period. I am as confident on this number as on any other I have ever written.
It's redundant in multiples, yes (other than as a Smokestack sacrifice). It's also the glue that makes Stax a deck worth playing, and one of the two sources of significant card advantage you run (the other being Chalice).
Without Crucible, your cards have to show up in a specific way in order not to shit on each other. With Crucible, you have a deck full of high-quality cocaine powder ready to be snorted from 20-year-old Kylie Minogue's ass. Play fucking four.
About a 62-card deck with only 2 Smokestacks, and the other deck which is Smokestackless: you guys just have to learn to handle a Smokestack in my opinion. Yes, it's slow, but once you really know how to use it, it's the most powerful card in your deck (unless you're playing against Goblins or combo, but you should win those match-ups anyway). The problem with Smokestack is, you really need to learn how to use it. How high to stack it, and what to keep and what to sac in certain situations. It's not something I can explain over the forum, but I can tell you, dropping below 3 is probably a mistake. There have been lists of Staxless Stax before, but they all failed. Feel free to prove me wrong though.
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Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
As for my sideboard :with the green splash
I currently have these:
3 exalted angel
2 O rings
2 Wrath of God
3 K. grips ---I could even go to 4 if really needed
3 choke
2 needle/EE/Keg could be a different card
These are my choices,
I still keep exalted angel on the side as I found her to be a lot of help in certain match ups. I can bring her in for magus who would useless in certain match ups or add up the pressure along side magus
I have wrath on my sideboard still, against aggro. It helps a lot even as a 2 of.
I don't run graveyard hate as I usually don't find the need for it.
@horizon canopy
If your running a light green splash, its worth it. its not really there to provide you with mana, its actually there to give you draw.
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Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
Quote:
I have won a game because I drew Crucible on turn 4.
Quote:
but if it ll do impressive stuff a little later.
... and this is exactly the reason why I do not run 4 Crucible.
The synergy between Crucible of Worlds and Wasteland, Smokestack or any other card might be very good, this is not a reason for running 4. Tangle Wire has massive synergy with Wasteland, Smokestack, Trinisphere and Armageddon, yet it isnt played in Legacy Stax. Sphere of Resistance has massive synergy with all these cards, yet it is a mere sideboard card most of the time. Synergy does not dictate everything. You usually run 4 copies of a card you want to see in your opening hand every single game, and usually these that you do not mind seeing in multiple copies over the course of a game.
Do Chalice of the Void and Trinisphere fall into that category? Yes, and this is why you do run 4. If you can, you will want to drop one turn one every single game. Do Crucible of Worlds fall into that category? No. You want to see a Wasteland or a Smokestack before going for the Crucible of Worlds. You almost never want to drop Crucible of Worlds on turn one. To be honest, there are no matchup where I want to drop a Crucible of Worlds before turn three or turn four, and there are matchups where you want Crucible of Worlds by turn five or six, never sooner. Yes, Crucible of Worlds is what glues all the lock components in some matchups. But glue is only good when you have actual stuff to glue together, or else it just stays around doing nothing, except wasting you mana and draws. This is why running less than 4 Crucible of Worlds is completely acceptable, and often the proper call.
The fact that a player named Nihil Credo states that 4 Crucibles is mandatory does not mean it is correct. My intensive Stax testing made me reach a way different conclusion, and I can guarantee that I have played and tested Stax much more than anyone else on these boards. Long term Stax players I have discussed this issue with reached similar conclusions, and run 2 or 3 Crucibles, sometimes with additional copies in the SB.
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Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Skeggi
Cutting a Crucible has only appeared as an improve in Dutch Stax.
... and in Sun Tower and in Eternal Garden and ... The point I am trying to make is, if Armageddon Stax is really so dependent on Crucible, maybe it's a symptom of a deeper problem (with the build and/or strategy).
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Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DireLemming
... and in Sun Tower and in Eternal Garden and ... The point I am trying to make is, if Armageddon Stax is really so dependent on Crucible, maybe it's a symptom of a deeper problem (with the build and/or strategy).
True. That's partially why I developped Dutch Stax. Armageddon Stax, is as the name indicates, very reliant on Armageddon. The entire deck is built on the fact that you will have lands in your graveyard, and incidentally, your opponent too.
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Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
@Toad
You may want to consider being a bit more open with information like that, no?
In any event, as numerous people before me have suggested: four crucibles are run because between the synergy with smoker, geddon, wasteland, combating opposing wastelands, allowing for one to go city of traitors--->city of traitors, chalice etc without hosing yourself and other such plays and a deck that has no actual draw or search, four is a good number to run because it maximizes your chances of drawing one. Crucible does nothing on its own, however it is an important cog in the mechanism of the deck's operation whether it is used to force an opponent to search up basics and run at partial efficiency or allow you to ramp a smoker up to two or three. Even in a variant that I play which doesn't require geddon at all, I still run four if only because I like to have another ready following the first being countered.
I honestly don't see why I had to point that out when it has been pointed out a number of times before. As far as I am concerned that is all there is to running four crucibles. I don't need any other reasons.
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Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
This is getting heated. This isn't good.
It has been made clear that the vast majority of people thinks 4 Crucible is the right number. Refrain from just piling up on that point and stick to facts.
Also, whether someone is a random or the Almight God of Eternal Magic does not concern the point we're discussing, so it should not be brought up by either camp.
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Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
The reason to run 4x crucible is as Mordel said. Your first is likely to get countered. And drawing into another one, or playing multiples even is huge when you get a stack online. Besides crucible making mox diamond an even better turn 1 play, it is a bomb that your opponent will most likely scramble to handle as soon as possible. Crucible will just win you games, that point is not even argueable.
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Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
Good call!
I forgot about the mox, city o traitors/tomb, crucible play on the first turn that allows for a strong first turn play and a land drop on the second turn to allow you to get a second turn chalice for two, magus or in my case a moat/humility much of the time.
I also forgot to mention how nice crucible is with "factorays".
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Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
I agree with Credo, the X Crucible of Worlds discussion is over. Some people run 3, most people run 4. I haven't seen a single post suggesting someone is willing to change their list.
On a different matter, I cut my Horizon Canopy and added a second Kor Haven. Someone above said that it was amazing in there deck, and I realized having it more often is probably more amazing. I know it's Legendary, but so is Flagstones and I almost never hit that problem. Kor Haven has been my out to Tarmogoyf or Tombstalker many games, and I'm sure we can agree on the fact that an opposing deck presenting 1 large threat can be trouble for Stax, since none of our cards are designed to deal with single threats quickly. I don't know if I can take credit for suggesting Kor Haven, but I do know that in July a friend and I worked on a Stax list that won a Mox Emerald and we had Haven in the build.
On a more serious note, I'm having a huge problem with my board.
3 Aura of Silence
3 Sphere of Resistance
3 Suppression Field
3 Runed Halo
2 Powder Keg
1 Exalted Angel
I know the 2 Keg/ 1 Angel is weird, it was 3 Angel but I only own 2 Kegs. The first three slots are solid in what I'm taking to Chicago, please don't attempt to convince me Needle is better or to splash green. I understand the strengths but I'm not interested. I see Halo either being huge or dead all weekend. Naming Goyf, Trygon Predator, Wombstalker, Naught or whatever is all good, but could this slot simply be a better card? Also, exactly how good is Powder Keg, and what else can be used?
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Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
Kor haven is quite nice and two makes sense, but I you must be one of the luckiest stax players on the planet to have never run into an issue with flagstones being legendary.
I still run four regardless because they are just that good, but I have had to basically been time walked because of them before.
I like powder keg a lot. I am sort of undecided on field though: I ran them for a while, but most of the decks that they come in against use duals, which I like to waste and while suppression field doesn't make wasting lands impossible, it does make it irritatingly limiting in using three mana essentially to destroy one land.
If I saw more 4c landstill, my feelings would probably change towards them a lot though.
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Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mordel
Kor haven is quite nice and two makes sense, but I you must be one of the luckiest stax players on the planet to have never run into an issue with flagstones being legendary.
I still run four regardless because they are just that good, but I have had to basically been time walked because of them before.
I like powder keg a lot. I am sort of undecided on field though: I ran them for a while, but most of the decks that they come in against use duals, which I like to waste and while suppression field doesn't make wasting lands impossible, it does make it irritatingly limiting in using three mana essentially to destroy one land.
If I saw more 4c landstill, my feelings would probably change towards them a lot though.
I agree here. I play 3 because I hate timewalking myself when I hit 2 of them. I would love to play more Kor Haven, but with it being Legendary, I can't afford the risk. And as far as Flagstones being Legendary, they at least replace themselves if you play 2.
My board is currently:
3x Powder Keg (versatile sweeper)
4x Pithing Needle (again, protection from EE, Deed, etc)
4x Choke (really wrecks blue, which is a large portion of the format)
4x Krosan Grip (Deed/EE/Top, etc, as well as taking out a Dreadnought)
That's what I currently run, but still haven't gotten to test against Dreadstill since the change. I love Choke though.
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Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Patrick
On a different matter, I cut my Horizon Canopy and added a second Kor Haven. Someone above said that it was amazing in there deck, and I realized having it more often is probably more amazing. I know it's Legendary, but so is Flagstones and I almost never hit that problem. Kor Haven has been my out to Tarmogoyf or Tombstalker many games, and I'm sure we can agree on the fact that an opposing deck presenting 1 large threat can be trouble for Stax, since none of our cards are designed to deal with single threats quickly. I don't know if I can take credit for suggesting Kor Haven, but I do know that in July a friend and I worked on a Stax list that won a Mox Emerald and we had Haven in the build.
I never ran 2x less because of the Legendary issue than because it's yet another colourless source. If your white mana count remains healthy, go ahead; in my case, I prefer to use maindeck 3-4x Exalted Angels which put further stress on the manabase (and they really want 4x City of Traitors too).
By the way, I think I love you now; Kor Haven's been my pet card for a while (if we're interested in dates, according to the search button I first tested it in February '08).
Quote:
On a more serious note, I'm having a huge problem with my board.
3 Aura of Silence
3 Sphere of Resistance
3 Suppression Field
3 Runed Halo
2 Powder Keg
1 Exalted Angel
I know the 2 Keg/ 1 Angel is weird, it was 3 Angel but I only own 2 Kegs. The first three slots are solid in what I'm taking to Chicago, please don't attempt to convince me Needle is better or to splash green. I understand the strengths but I'm not interested. I see Halo either being huge or dead all weekend. Naming Goyf, Trygon Predator, Wombstalker, Naught or whatever is all good, but could this slot simply be a better card? Also, exactly how good is Powder Keg, and what else can be used?
Runed Halo is pretty great since, unlike the other main contender Oblivion Ring, it has a lot of synergy with the rest of your deck (plus you may meet Progenitus). The main downside is the coloured mana cost: if you run less than ~11 white mana sources (plus Moxes) I'd be concerned about it.
I'm not a fan of Powder Keg; it's all too often a worse Oblivion Ring. It used to be a good consideration when Ichorid and Empty the Warrens were everywhere and your Prisons not always fast enough; now they're on the decline and less of a concern. I'd just play 3x Angels here; they're nice to have against aggro, even if they hit a turn later or two due to less white mana, and in general they're pretty important to have somewhere in order not to lose to time.
Sphere of Resistance is a card I consider rather narrow, and the symmetry is often nasty. Since you already have an abundance of cards to bring in against Brainstorm/Ponder/Top decks, I'd either replace these with Ethersworn Canonist if you're worried about combo, or take a gamble on Tendrils deck and devote the slots to other matchups (you're not defenseless anyway: MD artifacts plus Halo plus AoS for LEDs/Petals/Moxes plus Angel for a clock are a decent package).
Also, if you can get your hands on a copy of The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, it's a great 1-of for the sideboard.
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Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
I prefer Glowrider against combo (which is only ANT in my meta) because they can't duress it away and it doesn't die to Serenity. It isn't as easy to play on turn 1, but usually ANT doesn't win that fast.
Another advantage of Glowrider is that he is a clock (even though he's not that fast).
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Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
I don't even board against combo, but that seems like a decent play. Although I think Sphere is better simply because it is easier to cast turn 1. But Chalice/Trini usually wins that match anyway, in my experience.
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Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Patrick
On a more serious note, I'm having a huge problem with my board.
3 Aura of Silence
3 Sphere of Resistance
3 Suppression Field
3 Runed Halo
2 Powder Keg
1 Exalted Angel
I know the 2 Keg/ 1 Angel is weird, it was 3 Angel but I only own 2 Kegs. The first three slots are solid in what I'm taking to Chicago, please don't attempt to convince me Needle is better or to splash green. I understand the strengths but I'm not interested. I see Halo either being huge or dead all weekend. Naming Goyf, Trygon Predator, Wombstalker, Naught or whatever is all good, but could this slot simply be a better card? Also, exactly how good is Powder Keg, and what else can be used?
I Figure that the Aura of Silence is for the Enchantress/Stax Matchup, and the Spheres are good against the ANT/TES/Belcher Matchup. I Found that Although AoS is good, I find Rule of Law serves as an amazing card against both of the scenario's. It Limits Enchantress to play 1 spell a turn, which wins the game for me:wink: . It Also Makes Combo Lose pretty easily. I'm Finding that a lot of 2 CC in the sideboard can go both ways. There has been times where chalice @ 2 has been out, and I need to resolve Runed Halo. I am a huge fan of defense grid though, because it just helps me against blue decks all day long. I find That even though Chalice is great, I find myself sideboarding StP's, to stop the early Predator, Naught, Goyf, Wombstalker.
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Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
The decision has been made, Keg is out and it's back up to 3 Angel.
Sphere of Resistance has been good for me. I don't use it as a tool to beat combo decks, I use bring it in during matchups that I want to slow down. Burn, Sligh, Combo etc. can go too fast for me to stay in the game, and a Sphere can really buy the time you need to resolve 3-Sphere and then Geddon before you die. Or Prison/Moat, whatever.
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Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
What do you fella's think about Karmic Justice in the board?
Things it answers:
Trygon Predator
Armageddons (Rare mirror match)
Sinkhole
Wasteland
Pernicious Deed
Krosan Grip
Seal of Cleansing/Primordium
Engineered Explosives
Other bullshit.
It answers some of these better than others, but maybe it's worth a shot. This could reasonably come in against Landstill, Eva Green, Dreadstill, decks with Wasteland or whatever. I'm wondering how much better it can make bad matchups.
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Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
I had been thinking about it as well. I really still need work on my SB. I currently have:
4x Choke
4x Krosan Grip
4x Pithing Needle
3x Powder Keg
I don't know though. Keg is so slow, but gives us another out against combo tokens and other smaller nonsense. Also good against Dreadstill or Landstill. Needle is also good, just don't know if Karmic would be a good replacement. I think Choke and Grip are staying for sure. Bah! I say they give us 20 card sideboards!
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Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
@karmic justice
I own a set and never really got to use it, it was very defensive and would usually get disenchanted or gripped first before they deed or whatever. On game 2, where you would usually board this in, players would actually bring in disenchant effects just to break stax down. It never really caught much attention as I assume its because it never really helped our bad matchups as much as we would like it to.
@scrow
I don't think you would need karmic justice if you have K.grips in the board. The only real time I would use Karmic justice was to buy me time against Deed based decks. It was good against anything that destoys prermanents but I specifically brought those in for Deed effects. But since you have K.grips for deed, this should really help you enough.
I actually like EE better than keg simply because they can get through counter balance, but if there were tons of g.teeg, Id go for kegs.
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Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
Who (if any) has played with a 62 card list as a norm.?
Ive tried cutting a city of traitors so I can run a 4th oblivion ring main, and sometimes I am missing that 26th land. I may kick the 4th ring to the board, but it is such an "answer all" card I love seeing it in my hand early in case things get out of hand.
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Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
Karmic justice has been discussed before.
In case no one wants to flip back a number of pages or search it up, the side of the argument that I remember and agree with is that for the most part trying to stop your stuff from being blown up is a better approach than making sure everything gets blown up.
As far as I am concerned an answer stops a specific threat and karmic justice is not actually an answer, it just makes destroying things more costly. Here is the kicker though: it is quite difficult to set up again after having your board wiped and regardless of your opponent's end, you are probably going to have a harder time recovering because you don't run draw and you weren't the one pulling the trigger on a deed either.
Something comes to mind that I remember some pro guy writing somewhere and it is aggro decks always draw aggro and control decks need to draw answers. That expression is polarized even more with stax because you will need to draw specific pieces all over again to try and combat a rock deck's beat or whatever.
Seriously though. Many of these questions being asked have been discussed in detail. If you don't want to sift through all the pages, you can always use the advanced search function.
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Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Patrick
What do you fella's think about Karmic Justice in the board?
I played it for a rather long while, then dropped it for more proactive solutions (Defense Grid, Suppression Field / Pithing Needle).
The problem with the card is that you're not really interested in free Vindicates or even Armageddons: if you get to kill their Tarmogoyf as they destroy your Chalice of the Void, it's still a great deal for them. They play a new creature, which was probably dead in hand due to Prisons or the Chalice itself, and they're back to square one (aka the Maindeck Oblivion Ring Problem). Destroying lands with it is even more unreliable since pretty much every possible target is much better than a Stone Rain.
You're putting a price on their spells, but the price they pay is likely less painful than if you had just played another disruptive permanent in Karmic Justice's stead.
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Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
I have a hard time with enchantress/aggro loam. I havent seen a decklist in the last few pages so here's the one i'm playing with.
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)
// Lands
3 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
2 [JGC] Mishra's Factory
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
3 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [REW] Wasteland
7 [LRW] Plains (1)
1 [NE] Kor Haven
// Creatures
4 [PLC] Magus of the Tabernacle
3 [ON] Exalted Angel
// Spells
3 [DS] Trinisphere
3 [US] Smokestack
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
3 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
4 [CHK] Ghostly Prison
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [JGC] Armageddon
3 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
1 [P3] Ravages of War
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 3 [9E] Defense Grid
SB: 3 [RAV] Suppression Field
SB: 3 [MR] Rule of Law
SB: 3 [FNM] Aura of Silence
SB: 2 [LG] Moat
Moats are something new i've been trying as i've freed up a few proxy slots. I havent had much of a chance to test them but i'm hoping they will be good against loam's big creatures. Supression Field is good but doesnt seem to be enough to give me an edge in this matchup.
I added 1 ravages of war for 1 oblivion ring... maybe the 4th ring needs a spot in the board. I often found myself wishing that (random card) was an armageddon.
Aura of Silence in the board are for enchantress which destroyed me in the top 4 last tournament. These are replacing powder kegs. I didn't find myself siding these in that often.
I cut my 4th crucible of worlds for an exalted angel. There is a lot of storm combo in my meta so it is nice to kill them quickly after stalling with a trinisphere, chalice, rule of law, etc. I'm still not sure about this one.
I've played with a lot of random 1 of lands including Dust Bowl, Horizon Canopy, and Gods' Eye. I'm liking Kor Haven at this point. Its ability to answer Dreadnought is important as Dreadstill is another deck that places frequenly in my meata. It came in for a factory because i upped my threat count with another angel.
I traded 1 City of Traitors for a plains because i included some WW casting cost cards in the sideboard and do not want to see 2 in my opening hand. It is also nice to ramp smokestack to 2 and be able to hold it for an additional turn.
These above changes were made following a 4th place finish, losing to Dreadstill and Prison enchantress in the top 4. The rest of the meta includes Aggro Loam (i lost) Storm combo (i won!), and random aggro decks.
I've tested some of my changes extensively, others are more recent.
Any critiques?
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Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dirtyoldguy366
I have a hard time with enchantress/aggro loam. I havent seen a decklist in the last few pages so here's the one i'm playing with.
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (
http://www.magicworkstation.com)
// Lands
3 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
2 [JGC] Mishra's Factory
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
3 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [REW] Wasteland
7 [LRW] Plains (1)
1 [NE] Kor Haven
// Creatures
4 [PLC] Magus of the Tabernacle
3 [ON] Exalted Angel
// Spells
3 [DS] Trinisphere
3 [US] Smokestack
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
3 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
4 [CHK] Ghostly Prison
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [JGC] Armageddon
3 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
1 [P3] Ravages of War
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 3 [9E] Defense Grid
SB: 3 [RAV] Suppression Field
SB: 3 [MR] Rule of Law
SB: 3 [FNM] Aura of Silence
SB: 2 [LG] Moat
Moats are something new i've been trying as i've freed up a few proxy slots. I havent had much of a chance to test them but i'm hoping they will be good against loam's big creatures. Supression Field is good but doesnt seem to be enough to give me an edge in this matchup.
I added 1 ravages of war for 1 oblivion ring... maybe the 4th ring needs a spot in the board. I often found myself wishing that (random card) was an armageddon.
Aura of Silence in the board are for enchantress which destroyed me in the top 4 last tournament.
I cut my 4th crucible of worlds for an exalted angel. There is a lot of storm combo in my meta so it is nice to kill them quickly after stalling with a trinisphere, chalice, rule of law, etc. I'm still not sure about this one.
I've played with a lot of random 1 of lands including Dust Bowl, Horizon Canopy, and Gods' Eye. I'm liking Kor Haven at this point. Its ability to answer Dreadnought is important as Dreadstill is another deck that places frequenly in my meata. It came in for a factory because i upped my threat count with another angel.
I traded 1 City of Traitors for a plains because i included some WW casting cost cards in the sideboard and do not want to see 2 in my opening hand. It is also nice to ramp smokestack to 2 and be able to hold it for an additional turn.
These above changes were made following a 4th place finish, losing to Dreadstill and Prison enchantress in the top 4. The rest of the meta includes Aggro Loam (i lost) Storm combo (i won!), and random aggro decks.
I've tested some of my changes extensively, others are more recent.
Any critiques?
I struggle a lot with Dreadstill too. However, I splashed green in my list so I could add Krosan Grip and Choke in the SB which win the game against decks like that. Grip is excellent in that it takes out their Dreadnought straight through counter backup.
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Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
Quote:
Originally Posted by
scrow213
I struggle a lot with Dreadstill too. However, I splashed green in my list so I could add Krosan Grip and Choke in the SB which win the game against decks like that. Grip is excellent in that it takes out their Dreadnought straight through counter backup.
I have never experimented with a green splash. I consider the Dreadstill matchup to be 50/50 at worst though i devote a lot of sideboard slots to it (Defense Grid, Trini, Supression Field) The deck i fear the most is enchantress it got 1st place last time and Sigil of the Empty Throne should replace his alternate win condition (opalescence) which is WAY meaner. I hope he doesnt show up. The combination of quick development of mana, combined with a lot of card advantage and a ton of permanents makes this deck a tough customer.
Anybody have any insight on the Enchantress matchup?
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Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dirtyoldguy366
I have never experimented with a green splash. I consider the Dreadstill matchup to be 50/50 at worst though i devote a lot of sideboard slots to it (Defense Grid, Trini, Supression Field) The deck i fear the most is enchantress it got 1st place last time and Sigil of the Empty Throne should replace his alternate win condition (opalescence) which is WAY meaner. I hope he doesnt show up. The combination of quick development of mana, combined with a lot of card advantage and a ton of permanents makes this deck a tough customer.
Anybody have any insight on the Enchantress matchup?
Well there is Rule of Law that slows their "combo" plan. Or Sphere of Resistance slows them down a lot too.
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Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
I like the idea of a green splash. It would give extra life to Horizon Canopy, and would be an excuse for me to finally test that new K. Grip-wannabe that draws you a card. I might try it.
What would the mana base look like?
Would we have to cut some of the staple colorless lands?
I am intrigued.
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Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bowvamp
I like the idea of a green splash. It would give extra life to Horizon Canopy, and would be an excuse for me to finally test that new K. Grip-wannabe that draws you a card. I might try it.
What would the mana base look like?
Would we have to cut some of the staple colorless lands?
I am intrigued.
This is my current manabase (plus Moxen)
3x City of Traitors
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Plains
3x Flagstones of Trokair
3x Mishra's Factory
3x Wasteland
2x Savannah
2x Horizon Canopy
1x Kor Haven
Flagstones can fetch the Savannahs as well.
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Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
@Dirtyoldguy366
I don't have much insights vs enchantress, I just know that its a really bad match up. I know they run more permanents than we do.. If your really afraid of enchantress. Try running a dedicated sideboard for them, Maybe tempest of light or something of the likes.
aggro loam is the same way, a bad matchup, dont know what to board for them, maybe s.fields, needles, chalice @ 2 that hits burning wish, loam,DD. but it will not change the fact that they would bring K. grips, and artifact hate against you as well. A quick lock might help alot to be able to lock them down.Graveyard hate might help as well...
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Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
So I keep getting rolled by Faerie Stompy now. I boarded in Chokes and Grips (for Jitte and whatnot). He just dropped a Glen Elendra and beat me down. I gripped his Jitte and he played another. He dropped SoFI also. I couldn't drop geddon, cause he had blue mana for Glen Elendra... Thoughts?
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Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
Quote:
Originally Posted by
scrow213
Thoughts?
Faerie Stompy doesn't suffer from Trinisphere or Chalices, in fact, they run these themselves. All Tomb-based aggro are pretty hard this way, but Faerie Stompy is harder than Dragon Stompy (which has Moon effects). Faeries Stompy has Back to Basics, they also have counter back-up. They use Trinket Mage to get a Relic of Progenitus to kill your graveyard or they get an Engineered Explosives@0 and kill your Moxen (and their own, but sometimes they don't really care about that).
Basically: this match is a very tough match-up for Armageddon Stax. I'm not really sure what works against them. I've tried Oblivion Rings, they are nice, but often not enough. Humility is pretty cool, but it has bad synergy with your Maguses and Angels if you run them. Most important thing is, Chalices and Trinispheres are dead cards. These will simply have to go. Your Moxen are also less attractive to play. If you pack Powder Kegs in your sideboard, run them, it could kill their Moxen and Seat of the Synod if they run them. Also pretty nice @3: kills most creatures and the equipment. If you have Wrath of God in your sideboard, get them.
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Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
Quote:
Originally Posted by
f|i[p]
@Dirtyoldguy366
I don't have much insights vs enchantress, I just know that its a really bad match up. I know they run more permanents than we do.. If your really afraid of enchantress. Try running a dedicated sideboard for them, Maybe tempest of light or something of the likes.
aggro loam is the same way, a bad matchup, dont know what to board for them, maybe s.fields, needles, chalice @ 2 that hits burning wish, loam,DD. but it will not change the fact that they would bring K. grips, and artifact hate against you as well. A quick lock might help alot to be able to lock them down.Graveyard hate might help as well...
I've been thinking something along the lines of Tempest of Light also. I've been testing Aura of Silence and it just acts like a speedbump to them just like trinisphere and chalice and they usually oblivion ring/seal it before you can use it against their kill cards. Mass enchantment removal is probably the way to go here. I'm really hoping that guy doesnt show up or brings something janky but i might devote a few sideboard slots to it just in case.
As for loam what kind of graveyard hate can we use that is good against them? I know this player has a tendency to board in chalice and set them to 0 game 2 to avoid Tormod's Crypt. Hits my moxen too but i often board them out - this might be the wrong call though if we're going for a fast lock. What other graveyard hate is worth playing against them. Morningtide? Wheel of Sun and Moon?
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Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
Againt Enchantress I find Aura of Silence, Oblivion Ring and Humility very effective. Go after their Enchatress effects.
Against Aggro Loam I find Chalice@2 very effective. It stops their engine, their goyfs, Dark Confidant. Humility and/or Moat are also pretty cool.
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Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
For a good surprise factor, morning tide would be great, since most people would assume your running crypt or relic. But you also must remember that they can cycle in response to your casting of morning tide.. You just have to time it right. Chalice @ 2 is still one of the best answers.
Im playing a weird version of loam now, and I have noticed that even a trinisphere would hurt simply because you always have to cast loam and constantly cylcle, making it quite taxing for their mana base. But it doesn't change the fact that they have gigantic creatures that could easily kill magus, and a well diverse wish board...
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Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
Im trying to keep my list mono white, the green splash seems tempting, but aside from buying duals, the mild weakening of our manabase for no maindeck cards seem a little off to me. This is my board, which I would love opinions on since it seems shitty when I look at it:
4 Exalted Angel
1 Ghostly Prison(3 Main)
1 Oblivion Ring(3 main)
1 Rule of Law(good against dreadstill if noone had noticed:wink: )
2 Defense Grid( questionable? this has sealed me up games against control)
3 Aura of Silence (meh, its good, against the mirror, but.. who plays that?)
3 Runed Halo
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Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Joe_C
Im trying to keep my list mono white, the green splash seems tempting, but aside from buying duals, the mild weakening of our manabase for no maindeck cards seem a little off to me. This is my board, which I would love opinions on since it seems shitty when I look at it:
4 Exalted Angel
1 Ghostly Prison(3 Main)
1 Oblivion Ring(3 main)
1 Rule of Law(good against dreadstill if noone had noticed:wink: )
2 Defense Grid( questionable? this has sealed me up games against control)
3 Aura of Silence (meh, its good, against the mirror, but.. who plays that?)
3 Runed Halo
I personally don't play Angels. As for Rule of Law, it's good against Dreadstill and Storm, but only 1? Seems random. Aura of Silence I also like, but the double white can be tough to pull fast enough to matter. Same issue with Runed Halo.
As for the green splash, I don't see that it really weakens the manabase. I mean, we swap white sources for green/white duals, so we don't lose anything in terms of white mana. And if you mean Wasteland, I think the Tombs and Cities are better Wasteland targets anyway. I think Choke is too good to not run, and Krosan Grip is great against a lot of decks. From Dreadnought to EE or Deed, and hitting equipment, etc. I love the card and think it's too versatile not to play. I just put in 2 Temple Garden until I can pick up Savannah. Flagstones puts it into play tapped anyway.