Adder-staff boggart combos nicely with grenzo.
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Adder-staff boggart combos nicely with grenzo.
@Olaf Forkbeard My list is completely different. After almost 8 hours of testing I run the following list:
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Warchief
3 Goblin Matron
4 Grenzo, Dungeon Warden
4 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Goblin Piledriver
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
4 Aether Vial
2 Mountain
4 Spinerock Knoll (maybe -1 and +1 badlands/mountain or maybe even +1 Rishadan Port?)
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Badlands
1 Plateau
I'm not certain about the numbers of cards like Spinerock Knoll.. I feel as if 3 would be a better number. 4 Matron felt a bit much in combination with 4 Ringleaders and 4 Grenzo; so I dropped them to 3. I feel as if Spinerock Knoll is needed in order to maximize the power of Grenzo; that's why I also run 4 Siege-Gang Commanders. Port isn't an option in this version of the decklist.. Thalia however keeps some of the mana "denial". Thalia will hit the battle field more often with Grenzo than with a classic build.
Grenzo is really hard for your opponent to play against.. he messes with their head. Spinerock Knoll is INSANE.. even in turn three he can help Grenzo (vial or hardcast turn 2) put Siege-Gang Commander/Thalia/Ringleader etc into play. Mid/Late game Knoll assures you 2+ extra goblins into play most of the time as long as you have Grenzo.
Your opponent MUST answer Grenzo.. otherwise a whole world of possibility opens up that they need to take into account.
/edit:
if you want to add more toolbox stuff you could +1 matron -1 grenzo -2 siege-gang commander +2 toolbox cards (tarfire/sharpshooter/prospector).. but as of now I'm having too much fun with Grenzo+Spinerock Knoll+Siege Gang Commander combination (or even dropping a blind Siege-Gang now and then). It feels as if even flipping lands from our bottom makes Ringleaders more powerful (after shuffles).
So you are suggesting a new sub-archetype, similar to how Warren Instigator and Classic lists are different? On that assumption you could be correct. Your particular build looks more more volatile than my list, which is to say more powerful bullets in a gun that is more likely to break. I personally don't like Spinerock Knoll very much in Legacy, coming into play tapped matters very much, and could lead to some otherwise keep-able hands being lost. That being the downside I don't think the upside of putting specific cards on bottom for Grenzo, Dungeon Warden outweighs it. My brain immediately went to needing that 4th land for ringleader and drawing Spinerock Knoll, as least as 1 example. Mana hungry deck is mana hungry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Avatara
Grenzo, Dungeon Warden has not proven to be "insane" in any of my testing, what he has proven is that he does exactly what the card text says. He sometimes puts cards into play, 50% of the time or so, and sometimes he literally cannot put cards into play without burning the bottom cards of my deck, which can be mitigated with shuffle effects or Spinerock Knoll as you suggested. He has fed opposing Deathrite Shaman and Tarmogoyf in testing as well, which is bad as those match-ups are in the "tough" category.
I warn you of what is called the hot-hand fallacy wherein a person who has experienced success with a random event fallaciously believes they have a greater chance of further success in additional attempts. Think newer players with Fog. Please in no way take that to mean I think you are "newer," I simply caution you as a reminder. I just worry that you maxed out the number of possible Grenzo, Dungeon Warden lines in light of a False positive. Again I could be wrong.
I also implore you to max out your Goblin Matron. The value of being able to find what you want is so much more valuable than just playing more threats. It gives the deck more versatility, which leads to being able to get what you need more often, be it the kill or the kill spell. Brainstorm and Ponder are such powerful cards for the literal exact same reasons. Card selection leads to better lines of play.
@Avatara: Wow, that build looks fun. Way to think outside the box. But I'm with Olaf. Keep the 4th Matron, and Knoll looks bad in too many situations...
So far I'm thorn between some builds. Didn't have the opportunity to playtest yet, so everything is theoretical. But if anyone likes any, feel free to do it =D
1st: Rbw Thalia build
3 Badlands
3 Plateau
6 Fetchland
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
1 Rishadan Port
2 Chrome Mox
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Tarfire
1 Warrens Weirdings
3 Thalia
2 Grenzo
3 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
SB
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Cannonist
2 Spirit of the Labirynth
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Wear/Tear
1 Boartusk Liege
2 Tuktuk Scrapper
2nd: Grenzo Gator
4 Badlands
2 Aunties Hovel
3 Fetchland
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Chrome Mox
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Warren Instigator
3 Grenzo
1 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Chieftain
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirrorbreaker
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Stingscourger
2 Warren Weirdings
3 Tarfire
SB
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Boartusk Liege
2 Earwig Squad
2 Perish
2 Kineis
3rd: Classic Grenzo
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port
3 Badlands
5 Fetchlands
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Chrome Mox
2 Mountain
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Goblin Warchief
3 Goblin Chieftain
4 Mogg Warmarchall
2 Grenzo
1 Goblin Piledriver
2 Gemapalm Incinerator
3 Tarfire
1 Warrens Weirdings
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Shooter/Scrapper
SB:
4 CotV
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Boartusk Liege
1 Earwig Squad
1 Shoter/Scrapper
2 Perish
2 Kineis
Have no idea which one will be better, but will probably try the Thalia then Instigator lists. Any comments on any list is appreciated.
So i never played goblins.. But with that grenzo dude spoiled i want to give it a try. I checked some list, build this and i will test it from now on!
4 Thoughtseize
4 grenzo dungeon warden :cool:
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
2 Siege-Gang Commander
3 AEther Vial
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Stingscourger
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Badlands
5 Mountain
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
4 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
2 Goblin Ringleader
SB: 4 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 Perish
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
It is really interesting that we all came up with Thalia, Guardian of Thraben builds. It probably has to do with needing to run more Badlands means we have to cut Rishadan Port meaning we can just run more mana correction in general. If there is room ya' know. I wouldn't be opposed to replacing my Thalia, Guardian of Thraben slots with Tarfire and just running 2 Rishadan Port over the Plateau. That also seems like a fine route.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScatmanX
I couldn't help but notice you LOVE Chrome Mox. Enough that you run Pyrokinesis in your sideboard with it. Not going to lie I probably wouldn't play Chrome Mox without Warren Instigator mainboard personally. Speaking of which, I'd only run 2 Grenzo, DUngeon Warden in "Grenzo Gator" and swap it for the Goblin Piledriver. Those builds tend to be much more aggressive, and therefor appreciate the Goblin Piledriver much more.
I'd cut a land before cutting the 4th Aether Vial. Before that I'd cut a Grenzo, Dungeon Warden as he is a legendary. The deck is called Vial Goblins for a reason. Otherwise go for it. I can't say I like 4 Thoughtseize mainboard but to each his own.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Holland
I sure do =] and have played mox with success even in traditional build (just as in my report for last year brazilian natz).Quote:
Originally Posted by Olaf Forkbeard
I think 3 grenzo will end up being too much too. But for playtesting purposes running more of them is better, becausr you see him more often.
The Thalia commentary males sense. Will take it in consideration. But really want to test her in this shell to start. And the sb looks so cool...
Enviado de meu GT-S6313T usando Tapatalk
Don't forget that Matron is another shuffle effect. I think I would prefer to max that over the 4 SGC. Especially since Grenzo and SGC will be fighting for your already limited mana.Quote:
Originally Posted by Avatara
I didn't even think about that, good point.Quote:
Originally Posted by v1ND
Edit:
Hell yes, Jim Davis is running goblins again. 14th place.
He cut Goblin Sharpshooter for a Mogg War Marshal. At least, comparing it to the list he proposed a few months ago. Also he swapped his 2 Confusion in the Ranks for Ashen Rider.
He plays against RUG Delver here. Starts at 20:44:00 or apparently replays at 24:19:20.
Good to know he is back on track. :smile:Quote:
Originally Posted by Olaf Forkbeard
Anyway - I have played very similar list to Jim's. I went 2-2, loosing to my friend runing bant'esque list (0-2) after my terrible mistake on g1. I lost 1-2 against RUG delver (game 3 muligan to 5). I won 2-0 against GB goyf, liliana and 3 plagues in sb and I won 2-1 against ANT (really lucky there). My 4th round can be found @ 2:33 :00 http://www.twitch.tv/plansza/c/4323256
I feel really comfortable with this list and I only need to play tighter and pay more attention to the game state.
About paying attention to the game state:Quote:
Originally Posted by liamb
Your opponent actually couldnt cast AdNauseam in Game 1. When he played Cabal Ritual, he had only 6 cards in graveyard (Ritual was the 7th), which meant he had BBB in pool after Cabal Ritual.
Had he cracked Lotus Petal it would be legit though.
Yeah you are right. I thought one should count Cabal Ritual as one card in graveyard upon it resolve.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoboLord
I am feeling like I am a fool...
Can anyone help me understand why is Grenzo that strong, that with only 2 days of spoiler (no champ or extensive tests) there is already a subtype goblin deck : Grenzo goblins?
Ok, he can be insane with a lot of mana, but I really dont see where I should put him up to. Definitely I will not swap my ringleader for Grenzo (I would need a lot more mana to do that, gaes cradle goblins so?). Ok he can go into MWM spot (as I am seing you guys doing), but even on that spot, that we know was needing something knew, I ask myself: Is he really good?
He comes into play as a 2/2, and, if you are luck and have a lot of mana you may put something useful into play (or you can put yourself into a very hateful position, reveling another Grenzo, spending 4 mana to a creature that kills itself..). Grenzo seens like that card that is insane in paper, but in a real game, you will get mad really often... Well, we could try to run like 5~6 fetchs and keep the deck thin, so you can activate him and often bring some goblin to the table, but yet, I would love to see some seriosly testing about this guy.
Anyone can help me?
Seems too cute. Anyone brewed any decks yet?
To be clear I don't actually think he will make the cut in the long run, but he definitely has more potential than some other options shown in the past. The Grenzo Sub-Archetype you noticed was a theory, not a practice. No one actually knows how good he is but it seems, unless I misread people, that the general consensus is that his lack of synergy with Goblin Ringleader is too strong to run him, and his mana intensive abilities leave him more suited to either a different meta or just a different format. I believe it "might" be possible that running more shuffle effects could mitigate this downside and I am testing it.Quote:
Originally Posted by max_goblin
A couple have already been proposed, just head back a page and then skim.Quote:
Originally Posted by jrw1985
An update on the testing. As I guessed not running Tarfire and maxing out on Gempalm Incinerator is too slow in this meta. I will be cutting Thalia, Guardian of Thraben from the main-board and slam some Tarfire in her slot.
4 Goblin Lackey
1 Skirk Prospector
4 Goblin Piledriver
2 Grenzo, Dungeon Warden
2 Mogg War Marshal
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Tarfire
4 AEther Vial
3 Mountain
2 Badlands
1 Plateau
4 Arid Mesa
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Pyrokinesis
2 Confusion in the Ranks
2 Chalice of the Void
1 Stingscourger
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
http://mythicspoiler.com/m15/cards/reclamationsage.html
Looks good with vial, it can hepls us to keeping land control plan. In resp to discard can just enter from vial and just attack)
Yeah it can work. Vial and cavern makes this card almost like Krosan Grip on the stick. Althought it is not that good again sensei's divining top.Quote:
Originally Posted by OlegtheSuper
And with batterskull and jitteQuote:
Originally Posted by liamb
About Grenzo,
1. I believe his best spot is in MWM, as a 5th Ringleader..
2. I dont think that running more than 3 copies is something wise, since it can destroy itself.
3. When running him, you should change your base, swamping tarfire for gempalm, since gempalm enters the battlefield, and tarfire will only make goyfs bigger.
4. The mana base should change (not only adding black..) 23 lands would be the least needed, I believe 24 would be nice (4 ports, 4 wastelands, 4 caverns, 4 badlands 6 fetchs and 2 mountains). So you have access to abuse his ability.
5. Running a sideboard with more creatures than spells (Thalia over Thorn of Amethyst, Revoker over needle, Sharpshooter/lightning crafter over pyrokinesis), would be interesting, since you can send they back to the bottom of your library and them bring they back with Grenzo.
6. I searched for other strategies using the bottom of our library, didnt find anything useful, or that could see legacy play.
@Olaf Forkbeard: Thankyou!
Cya
I've been thinking about this a lot, and I'm wondering: is the current legacy metagame too fast for Vial?
I know that Vial helps a lot in the endgame and that it's counter-proof, but it's card disadvantage (which the winstig builds have to suffer from a lot in comparison with classic builds (Gempalm to Tarfire, Moxes)), it's not good in combination with Ringleader's ability, and most importantly, topdecking it in mid- or endgame is the worst.
Have Vialless (winstig)builds been tested? What is your opinion on this?