Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Following up on what RobNC said, it also loses quite a bit of the initial starting power in post-board games. Sort of like with ANT, every piece of interaction you board in makes it less likely that you'll combo off on turn one. The Unmask version, for example, might board in things like Collective Brutality to deal with creatures. Unless you blow acceleration on it, that's a turn 2 spell that would lead to a turn 3 reanimation as the follow up; that's a very beatable speed. Similarly, every Abrupt Decay, Sneak Attack, Massacre, Pithing Needle, etc. that goes into the deck clunks up plan A. The deck also goes off with backup a little bit less post-board, as Chancellors are likely to get trimmed for other problematic creatures more fitting for the matchup (Ashen Rider, Blazing Archon, Elesh Norn).
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
I just wanted to add my .02 concerning the red splash.
I really really have been missing Magus and P&K lately. I was honestly never that impressed by any of the other red sideboard options (sudden demise or the sparkmage/sharpshooter options). But those 2 cards in particular just always felt like they helped me the most in the games where I feel the deck struggles the most: grindier midrange-control decks.
Betwen thalia and prelate and sideboard hate pieces I feel as confident as ever vs. unfair combo. Faerie macabre has been a huge help too with the ability to recruit it being a godsend.
Delver games (to me) still feel like they come down to sticking a good piece of equipment (really any of the 3) and just riding that to victory.. Running 6+ Stoneforges via recruiter still feels like this gives us a huge edge. Counterspells have to be at their all time low against us (because of the uptick in Caverns and uptick in Humans) and tyring to waste out D&T is just a losing proposition. Thalia (as always) does the lord's work here; but Prelate on 1 is also just a BIG problem for these decks.
The grindier midrange decks are where I get more concerned: Lands and Shardless in particular. Lands can just grind us out or do some nigh uninteractable combo shinenagins; Shardless is... well shardless. These are the match-ups where I loved Magus and vs. Shardless.. P&K (who incidentally is also fanastic against Miracles).
Additionally, on the play at least, Magus has to be fantastic vs. one of our worst match-ups Eldrazi right?
I don't know but I think in the next few weeks before Louisville I want to go back to testing w/ Red.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
gh0st_b1rd
I had a Cunning Sparkmage at one point but I had cut it for a Path to Exile because it had seemed like a compromise for fast decks like Elves. I hadn't thought about cutting a Containment Priest because the Sneak and Show and Reanimator match-ups worry me. Realistically if I have a Sparkmage in the place of the 2nd Containment Priest Natural Order would be less of a worry if everything is killed on sight.
Manic Vandal is played in a very, very reactive fashion but is at its best when your opponent presents two targets. Vs the mirror its a mix of Vials, Revokers, a Needle and Equipment. Vs Shardless its one of their creatures and a sideboard card. Against Eldrazi, I am usually never in a hurry to deal with the Chalice they have played early but always want an answer for their Jittes if I can.
Another card I have considered is Devout Witness and that human powered Disenchant on legs from Innistrad, I don't usually mind that these cards are slow as long as I don't lose to Jitte outright.
I tried Devout Witness for a while too. If you have time to get it online in the mirror, you obviously just win. But it can be killed or Revokered for no value so you're not guaranteed to get value out of it when your opponent is bringing in more Needle effects and removal anyway.
I think the big thing about these Shatter effects is that most of the time you are playing them in matchups that can be really defined by early tempo / Wasteland - DnT, Merfolk, Eldrazi / similar Chalice decks, fast Painter hands. You need to be able to play whatever creatures are in your hand to keep up, and the constraints of needing red mana + 3 mana / Vial on 3 + *and* needing a target are huge drawbacks. Sometimes you just need a chump blocker for Eldrazi, or a dude to wield a Jitte, or to take out their Chalice on t2 so your STPs are live before you just get overrun.
Manic Vandal is better than Relic Warder in the long and grindy games where you can afford to pace yourself - vs Stoneblade, Maverick and in DnT or Painter games that go long. Stoneblade and Maverick decks play a lot of removal and Vandal is obviously much better than Relic Warder vs all removal heavy decks. But those decks are yesteryear's t1 and make up much smaller % of the field than decks where Relic Warder is better - more contemporary t1 decks like DnT/Eldrazi/SnS/Omni/Aluren/Lands/Reanimator builds (gets both Animate Dead and Dread). Vandal's marginally better vs Shardless, but it's not a haymaker, I don't think those games are really defined by Shatter effects the same way that Jitte mirrors are and Shardless can play Dread of Night out of the board so there will be some cases where you want the option to eat Enchantments.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
I 4-0'd my weekly last night with this. Beat UR TNN/Dack Fayden/TITI, Dredge, Miracles, Grixis Delver.
I dunno if I would take it to a large tournament in this form but it's not unplayable. Pontiff helped me beat a TNN and a Cavern'd Kambal let me come back from a fast Grixis Delver Pyro board. Pia/Kiran came out a few times, Magus wasn't relevant.
Humans:
4 Thalia
4 Mom
2 Kambal
2 Dark Confidant
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Pia/Kiran
1 Sanctum Prelate
3 Recruiter of the Guard
Friends of Humans:
4 SfM
2 Revoker
2 Flickerwisp
Equipment:
4 Vial
4 Stp
3 Equip
Land:
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
3 Port
3 Karakas
2 Plains
5 Fetch
1 Plateau
1 Scrubland
SB:
2 Path
2 Council's Judgment
1 Kambal
1 Rip
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Ethersworn
1 Containment Priest
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic Warder
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Palace Jailer
1 Orzhov Pontiff
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Wow, Magus would leave you with 2 white sources in the deck. That seems pretty ambitious. Congrats on the finish though!
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
http://i.imgur.com/le2cV9e.jpg?2http://i.imgur.com/uVFPuJC.jpg?2
Thought this thread might appreciate my shiny deck. Only non-foils are ports and caverns. Im about 99% certain ports will be in one of the upcoming expedition/masterpiece sets and that cavern of souls will be in MM2017. I'm holding out for the full art ports :tongue:
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
I had no idea Guay did a promo PtE!!!!
I must have!!
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
And only 50% more than a "regular" conflux/commander version. Hmm.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Okay so I went through this exercise and wanted to get the group's thoughts.
- I scored each "main deck" card in a typical D&T list against all the major archetypes (comprising 82%) according to mtgtop8 meta-game.
- The remaining 18% was divided (per the meta breakdown) into generic AGGRO, CONTROL, and COMBO categories.
- The following scale was used:
5 - "Best" - A card which will single-handedly take over and win a game; or make it nigh-impossible for an opponent to win a game.
4 - "Great" - A card which interacts in a powerful and meaningful way with the opponent; a "must answer"; a powerful card that can quickly take-over a game.
3 - "Good" - A card which has an impact on the game; it provides an effect which can be useful, but situational. May have powerful effect but only over a limited scope of the opponent's deck.
2 - "OK" - A card which isn't doing too much in a match-up except for providing a body that can eventually attack enough time to win the games.
1 - "Bad" - A card which has very little impact on the game; the body is weak given that the effect does nothing; or it's effect only targets perhaps 1 of an opponent's spells.
0 - "Terrible" - Does nothing in a particular match-up; essentially a mulligan.
I then created a weighted average of each card given the current Top8 Meta (i.e. SUMPRODUCT).
I'm sure we will argue about the ratings I gave to each card (and that's the whole point); but here's the list sorted by highest weighted average to lowest.
|
|
11% |
10% |
9% |
10% |
8% |
6% |
6% |
5% |
5% |
4% |
4% |
4% |
3% |
3% |
3% |
3% |
2% |
2% |
2% |
| Card |
Weight Average |
Miracles |
Eldrazi Aggro |
Shardless |
AGGRO |
Reanimator |
Grixis Delver |
COMBO |
D&T |
Elves |
Stoneblade |
4c Delver |
Storm |
S&T |
UR Delver |
Aggro Loam |
Lands |
Infect |
Aluren |
CONTROL |
| Aether Vial |
3.4 |
5 |
3 |
5 |
3 |
3 |
4 |
2 |
4 |
2 |
4 |
4 |
2 |
2 |
4 |
2 |
2 |
3 |
3 |
3 |
| Swords to Plowshares |
3.3 |
2 |
4 |
3 |
5 |
3 |
4 |
1 |
5 |
5 |
3 |
4 |
0 |
2 |
4 |
4 |
3 |
5 |
2 |
2 |
| Sanctum Prelate |
3.1 |
4 |
1 |
3 |
2 |
4 |
4 |
5 |
1 |
1 |
3 |
4 |
5 |
5 |
4 |
3 |
4 |
1 |
5 |
4 |
| Recruiter of the Guard |
3.0 |
4 |
3 |
4 |
3 |
2 |
3 |
2 |
4 |
3 |
3 |
3 |
2 |
2 |
3 |
3 |
3 |
3 |
3 |
3 |
| Thalia, Guardian of Thraben |
3.0 |
4 |
1 |
4 |
2 |
4 |
4 |
5 |
1 |
0 |
3 |
4 |
5 |
4 |
4 |
2 |
3 |
2 |
2 |
3 |
| Flickerwisp |
3.0 |
3 |
4 |
3 |
3 |
1 |
4 |
1 |
4 |
3 |
4 |
4 |
1 |
2 |
4 |
3 |
4 |
3 |
3 |
3 |
| Umezawa's Jitte |
2.9 |
2 |
4 |
3 |
5 |
0 |
4 |
0 |
5 |
5 |
3 |
4 |
0 |
0 |
4 |
2 |
2 |
5 |
4 |
2 |
| Batterskull |
2.6 |
3 |
3 |
3 |
5 |
0 |
4 |
0 |
3 |
2 |
3 |
4 |
0 |
0 |
4 |
2 |
2 |
1 |
2 |
4 |
| Mirran Crusader |
2.5 |
2 |
2 |
4 |
4 |
2 |
2 |
2 |
3 |
3 |
2 |
3 |
2 |
2 |
2 |
2 |
2 |
2 |
2 |
2 |
| Stoneforge Mystic |
2.5 |
3 |
3 |
3 |
4 |
0 |
4 |
0 |
4 |
2 |
3 |
4 |
0 |
0 |
4 |
3 |
1 |
3 |
1 |
3 |
| Serra Avenger |
2.4 |
2 |
3 |
2 |
3 |
1 |
3 |
1 |
3 |
3 |
3 |
3 |
1 |
1 |
3 |
3 |
3 |
3 |
2 |
3 |
| Mother of Runes |
2.3 |
2 |
1 |
4 |
4 |
0 |
4 |
0 |
4 |
1 |
3 |
4 |
0 |
0 |
4 |
4 |
3 |
1 |
1 |
3 |
| Phyrexian Revoker |
2.1 |
4 |
1 |
3 |
1 |
1 |
2 |
1 |
4 |
4 |
2 |
2 |
3 |
3 |
0 |
2 |
1 |
1 |
1 |
3 |
| Sword of Fire and Ice |
2.1 |
3 |
2 |
2 |
2 |
0 |
4 |
0 |
3 |
2 |
4 |
4 |
0 |
0 |
4 |
2 |
2 |
2 |
3 |
3 |
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
|
|
4% |
4% |
3% |
3% |
3% |
3% |
2% |
2% |
2% |
| Card |
Weight Average |
4c Delver |
Storm |
S&T |
UR Delver |
Aggro Loam |
Lands |
Infect |
Aluren |
CONTROL |
| Aether Vial |
3.4 |
4 |
2 |
2 |
4 |
2 |
2 |
3 |
3 |
3 |
| Swords to Plowshares |
3.3 |
4 |
0 |
2 |
4 |
4 |
3 |
5 |
2 |
2 |
| Sanctum Prelate |
3.1 |
4 |
5 |
5 |
4 |
3 |
4 |
1 |
5 |
4 |
| Recruiter of the Guard |
3.0 |
3 |
2 |
2 |
3 |
3 |
3 |
3 |
3 |
3 |
| Thalia, Guardian of Thraben |
3.0 |
4 |
5 |
4 |
4 |
2 |
3 |
2 |
2 |
3 |
| Flickerwisp |
3.0 |
4 |
1 |
2 |
4 |
3 |
4 |
3 |
3 |
3 |
| Umezawa's Jitte |
2.9 |
4 |
0 |
0 |
4 |
2 |
2 |
5 |
4 |
2 |
| Batterskull |
2.6 |
4 |
0 |
0 |
4 |
2 |
2 |
1 |
2 |
4 |
| Mirran Crusader |
2.5 |
3 |
2 |
2 |
2 |
2 |
2 |
2 |
2 |
2 |
| Stoneforge Mystic |
2.5 |
4 |
0 |
0 |
4 |
3 |
1 |
3 |
1 |
3 |
| Serra Avenger |
2.4 |
3 |
1 |
1 |
3 |
3 |
3 |
3 |
2 |
3 |
| Mother of Runes |
2.3 |
4 |
0 |
0 |
4 |
4 |
3 |
1 |
1 |
3 |
| Phyrexian Revoker |
2.1 |
2 |
3 |
3 |
0 |
2 |
1 |
1 |
1 |
3 |
| Sword of Fire and Ice |
2.1 |
4 |
0 |
0 |
4 |
2 |
2 |
2 |
3 |
3 |
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Sweet, thanks for doing that! Reminds me a bit of the burn deck breakdown I did about a decade ago. :eyebrow:
I'm happy to see that everything ends up with a 2 or better. Based on this analysis, any card that scores less than 2 doesn't belong in the maindeck (but might still be useful in the side). Two feature requests, if you have the time:
1) Can you calculate the standard deviation, or some other measure of the "swinginess" of the card? Cards that are either 4s or 0s across the board might belong in the side.
2) Given that you're going as narrow as Mirran Crusader, who is usually 0 or 1 copies in most maindecks, would you mind including other toolbox pieces as time permits? Specifically, Palace Jailer, Banisher Priest, Mangara of Corondor, Spirit of the Labyrinth, Thalia, Heretic Cathar. These are all cards that are considered general enough to see some maindeck play.
Thanks again.
EDIT: 3) Mind looking at land too? Much like our creatures, they serve two roles. Wasteland and Port are pretty staple, but the numbers of Cavern, Karakas, Mishra's Factory, etc. vary quite a bit.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Hey sorry not to jump in and interrupt conversation but I've taken quite the hiatus from competitive legacy thanks to school and life stuff, about 3 months to be exact. I still followed the format somewhat and saw the rise of reanimator. I see everyone packing a faerie macabre now and wanted to know what matchups you found it good in other than reanimator. Lands I'm sure it's good against, but anything else. (FWIW don't say stuff like Dredge or UB reanimator which are obvious) What matchups do we bring it in against and how many does everyone think is the right number?
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Marungo
Hey sorry not to jump in and interrupt conversation but I've taken quite the hiatus from competitive legacy thanks to school and life stuff, about 3 months to be exact. I still followed the format somewhat and saw the rise of reanimator. I see everyone packing a faerie macabre now and wanted to know what matchups you found it good in other than reanimator. Lands I'm sure it's good against, but anything else. (FWIW don't say stuff like Dredge or UB reanimator which are obvious) What matchups do we bring it in against and how many does everyone think is the right number?
Reanimator, any Loam decks, Dredge, Snapcaster decks. Storm if you're desperate for sideboard cards.
I personally am running a 2/1 split of Faerie and Rest in Peace. Don't forget Faerie is tutorable with Recruiter.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Included the weighted var and stdev.
No surprises; Mom and the equipment is the swingiest (at least according to my rankings)
Recruiter, Wisp, Vial and solid beaters (Crusader and Avenger) are the least swingy.
| "Count" |
Card |
Wt_Mean |
Variance* |
STDEV* |
Mean-1std |
Mean+1std |
| 2 |
Recruiter |
3.0 |
0.5 |
0.7 |
2.3 |
3.8 |
| 4 |
Wisp |
3.0 |
1.2 |
1.1 |
1.9 |
4.1 |
| 1 |
Crusader |
2.5 |
1.2 |
1.1 |
1.4 |
3.6 |
| 4 |
Vial |
3.3 |
1.3 |
1.1 |
2.1 |
4.4 |
| 2 |
Avenger |
2.4 |
1.5 |
1.2 |
1.1 |
3.6 |
| 4 |
STP |
3.3 |
1.8 |
1.4 |
1.9 |
4.6 |
| 2 |
Prelate |
3.1 |
2.0 |
1.4 |
1.7 |
4.5 |
| 4 |
Thalia |
3.0 |
2.1 |
1.5 |
1.6 |
4.5 |
| 3 |
Revoker |
2.1 |
2.9 |
1.7 |
0.4 |
3.8 |
| 4 |
SFM |
2.4 |
3.0 |
1.7 |
0.7 |
4.1 |
| 1 |
Bskull |
2.6 |
3.0 |
1.7 |
0.8 |
4.3 |
| 1 |
SoFI |
2.1 |
3.1 |
1.7 |
0.4 |
3.9 |
| 1 |
Jitte |
2.9 |
3.4 |
1.8 |
1.0 |
4.7 |
| 4 |
Mom |
2.3 |
3.6 |
1.9 |
0.4 |
4.2 |
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Also took a typical deck list using the above card counts to give a weighted "deck value" vs. each opponent deck...
Not sure if I agree with the exact "ranking" since it calculates out with such a bad combo score; mainly because of how many dead cards there are vs. combo (Plows, Moms, most equipment [ergo SFM]). May need to tweak that a bit potentially..
| Opp_Deck |
Wt. Value |
| 4c Delver |
3.7 |
| Grixis Delver |
3.7 |
| D&T |
3.5 |
| UR Delver |
3.5 |
| Shardless |
3.4 |
| AGGRO |
3.2 |
| Stoneblade |
3.1 |
| Miracles |
3.1 |
| CONTROL |
2.9 |
| Aggro Loam |
2.8 |
| Lands |
2.6 |
| Infect |
2.6 |
| Elves |
2.4 |
| Eldrazi |
2.4 |
| Aluren |
2.2 |
| S&T |
1.8 |
| Reanimator |
1.7 |
| Storm |
1.6 |
| COMBO |
1.5 |
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RobNC
Don't forget Faerie is tutorable with Recruiter.
Hard to forget as it's really the only reason to play the Faerie in the first place.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Secretly.A.Bee
Hard to forget as it's really the only reason to play the Faerie in the first place.
Wait, what? Most players were still on RIP before BR Reanimator was a thing, with some splashing the occasional Relic or Surgical. I added Faerie not (primarily) because of Recruiter, but rather because of BR Reanimator: it's a turn 0, Chancellor-proof way to remove two reanimation targets from their yard.
Anyway, yeah it works with both Recruiter and Vial.
