All B/R update speculation.

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Originally Posted by phonics

Well looking at a generalized metagame, it seems like it is currently skewing towards control/ aggro while combo is becoming less represented. In the archetypal rock paper scissors of the format, combo is supposed to be favorable against aggro, but since aggro has become extinct in lieu of aggro control (delver/ cantrip shell variants), combo doesn't have the favorable match ups it once had, couldn't this be the reason why miracles is where it is? It isn't just Miracles that is strong, other control decks as well like lands and some loam variants have been shown to be good in this meta as well.

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Its much easier. Aggro-control is no dog to combo like aggro decks a la Zoo, Burn, Goblins, etc and with the printing of Tarmogoyf and then Delver/SFM/TNN, there was no more reason to sleeve crap like Wild Nacatl which does shit against combo and loses against Batterskull and TNN anyways. Combo has a fair and even matchup against aggro-control, but Miracles can beat them all. Thats the problem. Miracles has no significant weakness against aggro OR combo, but only against some fringe and expensive decks

Miracles is barely playable at my store.

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Originally Posted by nedleeds

Miracles is barely playable at my store.

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Because of?

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Originally Posted by Julian23

When people talk about Miracles only dominating "just now" they neglect that it's been the top dog in Europe for way longer than in the US. We've been suffering for a lot more; can you please send help?

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miracles cant be that big of a problem, because if it was people would start playing more decks that beat miracles. That doesnt seem to be the case because people still complain about it. Miracles is a necessary evil that keeps the format in check. Additionally, the power of miracles is limited by the skill of the person playing it more so than most other decks. This is actually something that i wish more decks had, better performance for better play skills.

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Originally Posted by apple713

miracles cant be that big of a problem, because if it was people would start playing more decks that beat miracles.

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Like what? Mentor and spells > Goblins, 12 Post, whatever other deck you're going to throw out. Before Mentor was abortioned into the world, Goblins was like 75-80 to win. Now with everyone playing Moat it's like a 50/50 match.

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Originally Posted by Tantarus

Because of?

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I assume it looks like one of the stores around here: multiple Chalice decks, a few powerful oddballs like Lands and Enchantress, and enough floaters that people who want to play Miracles can't afford to skimp on Counterbalance or maindeck hate.

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Originally Posted by Tantarus

Because of?

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Chalice, fast moons, 3 ball, enchantress.

The question isn't whether Miracles' dominant or not. The question is what would Legacy become if Miracles got the axe. Would Legacy be better off without Miracles?

It's entirely possible for Legacy to take a worse turn as a result of a banning. Why would WotC risk that?

See you guys in 2 months.

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Originally Posted by twndomn

The question isn't whether Miracles' dominant or not. The question is what would Legacy become if Miracles got the axe. Would Legacy be better off without Miracles?

It's entirely possible for Legacy to take a worse turn as a result of a banning. Why would WotC risk that?

See you guys in 2 months.

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Yeah, what a hell it must be to see other creatures than Delver/DRS/Mentor/ShardlessAgent playable in the format

Don't forget Grizzlebees, Emmy and Mum.

Interesting thought, what other creatures see play in more than one deck?

Imperial Recruiter, Tarmogoyf, Baleful Strix, V Clique, True-Name, it's not that long of a list.

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

Don't forget Grizzlebees, Emmy

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I have troubles seeing those as creatures in terms of "creature combat as a form to win the game". Its not that combat math or blocking is any factor

Well... A couple of weeks ago I did manage to steal a game b/c a couple of brave Narcomoebas and their friend Stinkweed Imp spent a couple of turns blocking a Merit Lage token while Ichorids and zombie tokens led the charge. That's combat. Sort of.

Moral of the story: The Narcomoeba is mightier than the Merit Lage.

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Originally Posted by iatee

I don't think Joe Lossett would have the fanbase he has right now if he were piloting Eldrazi or Belcher.

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Joe is an exceptional Magic player, period, but this is a relevant historical note:
http://blog.mtgdeals.com/oarsman/reb...y-charbelcher/

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Originally Posted by ESG

Joe is an exceptional Magic player

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Yes, he is.

But so is Tom Ross - and I don't see Infect dominating the format.

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Originally Posted by ESG

Joe is an exceptional Magic player, period, but this is a relevant historical note:
http://blog.mtgdeals.com/oarsman/reb...y-charbelcher/

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My argument was that he became one of the most popular magic streamers because viewers find skilled players playing complex decks to be interesting to watch, not "The man dedicates his life to complex magic decks and has no interest in anything else." I mean, he plays Tron in Modern!

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Yeah, what a hell it must be to see other creatures than Delver/DRS/Mentor/ShardlessAgent playable in the format

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They're already playable. In fact, with Miracles gone you can expect at least the 2nd, 3th, and 4th ones to become less playable as the format slowly transitions to fast combo.

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Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual

They're already playable. In fact, with Miracles gone you can expect at least the 2nd, 3th, and 4th ones to become less playable as the format slowly transitions to fast combo.

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Bull. Miracles doesn't have the breft of answers that a deck like Delver does against combo. It's not holding down Storm, Beltcher or Oops. I would rather see Miracles on the other side of the table than Grixis Delver if I am playing ANT.

Miracles gone fast combo does what? Takes over the format suddenly while the community suddenly agrees in unison that Force, Daze and Spell Pierce are not worth running anymore? I doubt it.

In unrelated news, Counterspells are still a thing in Legacy.

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Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual

They're already playable. In fact, with Miracles gone you can expect at least the 2nd, 3th, and 4th ones to become less playable as the format slowly transitions to fast combo.

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There are zero indicator of this being close to realistic. You sound like anyone had suggested to ban Daze, FoW, Spell Pierce, etc.. Its not that Belcher was rampant before Miracles was a thing.

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Ninja'd by Dice

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Gentlemen's Agreement to no longer play Counter, or what?

So Delver and Delver alone is now the hero that saves us from the unwashed combo barbarians? I thought we wanted format diversity?

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

Bull. Miracles doesn't have the breft of answers that a deck like Delver does against combo. It's not holding down Storm, Beltcher or Oops. I would rather see Miracles on the other side of the table than Grixis Delver if I am playing ANT.

Miracles gone fast combo does what? Takes over the format suddenly while the community suddenly agrees in unison that Force, Daze and Spell Pierce are not worth running anymore? I doubt it.

In unrelated news, Counterspells are still a thing in Legacy.

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Definitely agree here with @Dice_Box and @Lemnear, you don't want to bring hyper-combo anywhere near decks like Reanimator, Delver, or any blue deck that wants to win with primarily 1-drops.
I do disagree though about ANT wanting to see Miracles more than Grixis Delver; it definitely attacks both the hand and the stack but it doesn't require "doesn't help me win" cards (like Decay). Most importantly, Grixis can't float a card like Flusterstorm on the top of their deck endlessly.

From a hyper-combo perspective, decks that run bad cards (removal) are generally laughable. Go on believing though that that 4x Terminus and 4x StP is what's keeping the format free of the Belchers of legacy. :tongue:

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Originally Posted by iatee

So Delver and Delver alone is now the hero that saves us from the unwashed combo barbarians? I thought we wanted format diversity?

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... oh, we also decided to not play Chalice, Thorn, Bloodmoon, Medsling Mage, Thalia, Gaddock Teeg, Discard and many more in a post-Miracles metagame? You are a desperate troll

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Originally Posted by iatee

So Delver and Delver alone is now the hero that saves us from the unwashed combo barbarians? I thought we wanted format diversity?

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No, Delver becomes one part of a rotation.

1. Tempo loses to Midrange and Lands.
2. Midrange and Lands lose to Combo.
3. Combo loses to Tempo.
4. Elves becomes a thing again.

I don't see the issue there.

I think people overrate the elegance of a rock-paper-scissors format. Aiming to have a format with many strong decks with 45-55% matchups against everything is much better than having to show up to a tournament with rock and hoping to dodge paper all day. And Miracles is much more of a 45-55% deck than people think, especially when people know how to play against it and have a board for it.

Ultimately much of Miracles' success (and why people have the illusion that it's more than a 45-55% deck) is due to good players outplaying their opponents. The deck is not some force of nature that just operates on its own.

The idea that the format here Miracles to keep combo down is strange to me. Combo is struggling these days as it is - throwing combo a bone would (in and of itself) be a good thing.

I think the best way to help combo would be via unbanning. Twist could give Elves a decent boost, and the return of Enchantress (via Earthcraft) would provide combo with more prey.

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

No, Delver becomes one part of a rotation.

1. Tempo loses to Midrange and Lands.
2. Midrange and Lands lose to Combo.
3. Combo loses to Tempo.
4. Elves becomes a thing again.

I don't see the issue there.

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My only issue would a lack of permission based hard control. I realise some people don't care about that; just like some people didn't care when we had no aggro decks and some people currently don't care that there is currently sweet little in the way of blueless midrange.

Speaking of aggro, where do Eldrazis fit in that model?

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Originally Posted by iatee

Ultimately much of Miracles' success (and why people have the illusion that it's more than a 45-55% deck) is due to good players outplaying their opponents. The deck is not some force of nature that just operates on its own.

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Yeah, and people in Vintage who assemble Time Vault and Voltaic Key are outplaying their opponents. I wouldn't be so quick to associate "outplaying" with tapping a land or SDT to counter a spell, and that's the largest reason for miracles' success.

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

Bull. Miracles doesn't have the breft of answers that a deck like Delver does against combo. It's not holding down Storm, Beltcher or Oops. I would rather see Miracles on the other side of the table than Grixis Delver if I am playing ANT.

Miracles gone fast combo does what? Takes over the format suddenly while the community suddenly agrees in unison that Force, Daze and Spell Pierce are not worth running anymore? I doubt it.

In unrelated news, Counterspells are still a thing in Legacy.

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Because there's no threat of a free counterspell in an enchantment anymore. If they ban Terminus, no one plays CounterTop because you just lose to any resolved threat. If they ban Top, no one plays control. If they ban CB, well then no one plays control and Miracles decks become Midrange Mentor.

So with CounterTop not being played, you don't have to worry about being locked out of a game if you're on combo and whiff on your first go-around. Delver will have Daze, which only works in early turns.

But where is the rule that says we have to sacrifice the long term health of the format so a control deck can exist? That argument, I am sorry, I don't buy it. If Lands became that dominant arguing that the format needs Prison decks would not save it so I don't buy it here.

I'm tired of hearing about how "skill intensive Miracles is". Its so skill intensive to play a one sided combo that locks your opponent out of the game. Its so skill intensive to cast 1 mana wraths. Its so skill intensive to cast monastery mentor with two tops in play. C'mon people, stop giving the deck more credit than it deserves. Its overpowered as fuck, I don't know why we can't just acknowledge that.

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Originally Posted by Crimhead

The idea that the format here Miracles to keep combo down is strange to me. Combo is struggling these days as it is - throwing combo a bone would (in and of itself) be a good thing.

I think the best way to help combo would be via unbanning. Twist could give Elves a decent boost, and the return of Enchantress (via Earthcraft) would provide combo with more prey.

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Combo needs no help. Storm and S&T are in a good spot and fringe combo decks make a showing here and there.

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Originally Posted by Crimhead

My only issue is a lack of permission based hard control.

Other than that, where do Eldrazis (aggro) fit in that model?

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Who says that no deck is closing the gap after Miracles? Aren't Lands or 12-Post classic control decks just to name two current one? Maybe UR Landstill or BUG Control with Toxic Deluge would return? We don't know as long as Miracles has only Lands.dec and AbruptDecay as enemies in the format

Have you guys actually ever played with Miracles? Does everyone think it's just T1 Top T2 Counterbalance every game?

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Originally Posted by iatee

Have you guys actually ever played with Miracles? Does everyone think it's just T1 Top T2 Counterbalance every game?

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Yes. The power level on the deck is so high that you can actually misstep a few times and be fine. Its more like T1 top T3 counterbalance with force of will backup T4 terminus T5 Jace GG.

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Originally Posted by iatee

Have you guys actually ever played with Miracles? Does everyone think it's just T1 Top T2 Counterbalance every game?

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No, its land-go until your cardadvantage/-quality engine of Top/Counterbalance/Terminus has grinded out the opponent

Funny, you would think, given that Miracles is *so* easy to pilot, that it would do even better than it does. Weird that only 7 people day 2'd with it at the last Legacy Open when everyone in the room was blessed with T1 top 9 rounds straight.

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Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual

Because there's no threat of a free counterspell in an enchantment anymore. If they ban Terminus, no one plays CounterTop because you just lose to any resolved threat. If they ban Top, no one plays control. If they ban CB, well then no one plays control and Miracles decks become Midrange Mentor.

So with CounterTop not being played, you don't have to worry about being locked out of a game if you're on combo and whiff on your first go-around. Delver will have Daze, which only works in early turns.

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I know right. Counter Top was never played before Terminus existed.

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

But where is the rule that says we have to sacrifice the long term health of the format so a control deck can exist? That argument, I am sorry, I don't buy it. If Lands became that dominant arguing that the format needs Prison decks would not save it so I don't buy it here.

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If WotC has rules for what this format needs to have, they are not keeping us informed.

The question is whether Miracles' high meta percentage is hurting the format more than having no such control deck would. You might think it is or it isn't, but it's wrong to dismiss the question altogether.

You've always had sympathy for people who want non-blue midrange decks to be a thing in Legacy; and for the banhammer to be used to fix the problem. Yet when somebody wants permission based (hard) control to be a thing in Legacy, and for the banned list to respect that, you show relative contempt?

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Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual

If they ban Terminus, no one plays CounterTop because you just lose to any resolved threat.

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You must be forgetting what Legacy was like before 2012. I will remind you that Counter-Top variants abounded.

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Originally Posted by iatee

Have you guys actually ever played with Miracles? Does everyone think it's just T1 Top T2 Counterbalance every game?

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Here's the deal, you either have Abrupt Decay or you spend the entire game holding counterspells to hopefully stop CB from ever hitting the table. If you ever let CB stick, you never get to deploy another creature. You can call that "outplaying" others or "skill-intensive" but I think the more appropriate term is "bull." Don't get me wrong, you can throw away 3-4 cards to resolve a threat and start Terminus gambling...of course that's kinda the first point miracles will ever have to make an actual decision whether or not to use a real resource (i.e. card from hand). When CB/SDT combo is terrible is the only time I'd ever begin qualifying the deck as skill testing.

Just know that if they printed a 1-3 cmc card that said "Can't be countered. Remove all copies of Counterbalance from the battlefield, the stack, players' hands, and libraries from the game," it would see play.

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Originally Posted by Crimhead

Speaking of aggro, where do Eldrazis fit in that model?

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Not sure to be honest. I do know that Eldrazi was meant to be the herald of the apocalypse but that didn't happen, so I really have no idea what would happen with it.

The deck is not putting up the kind of numbers I thought it would over time so I really don't know.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Combo needs no help. Storm and S&T are in a good spot and fringe combo decks make a showing here and there.

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According to mtgtop8, combo is 20% of the meta.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Who says that no deck is closing the gap after Miracles?

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I was responding to a hypothetical meta suggested by Dice.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Aren't Lands or 12-Post classic control decks just to name two current one? Maybe UR Landstill or BUG Control with Toxic Deluge would return?

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I explicitly said "permission based control".
Either way, I certainly wouldn't call Post a "classic control deck"!

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Maybe UR Landstill or BUG Control with Toxic Deluge would return?

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Maybe maybe not. Before Miracles there was no solidly competetive permission deck, and I see no reason to be optimistic about this.

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Originally Posted by Crimhead

According to mtgtop8, combo is 20% of the meta.

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Which for whatever reason includes Elves and Dredge. The joke is that all those decks combined are 20% while Miracles alone is 18,3%

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Originally Posted by Crimhead

I explicitly said "permission based control".
Either way, I certainly wouldn't call Post a "classic control deck"!

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For me "control" does NOT equal "runs blue and a shitload of counterspells" per definition and nor is "permission" synonymous to "counterspells". "Controlling" the board with stuff like Punishing Fire is totally fitting the description