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+1 to this. I'm even using it in other decks in place of some traditional graveyard hate as well, primarily due to lots of BR Reanimator. The fact that it's tutorable is just a huge bonus for us.Quote:
Originally Posted by kirbysdl
Surgical Extraction is also great "free" instant-speed hate but it can get countered by a Chancellor reveal, which won't always bail you out in a T1 reanimation like Faerie can.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kirbysdl
I forget that they play Chancellor, and I can see it being rough, but it's still weaker than almost any other competitive gy hate card. I definitely think it's worse against lands, dredge, etc. I can't really say I think its worth it, you have to get pretty luckyQuote:
Originally Posted by RobNC
I'm trying out just 1 Faerie in place of 1 RIP, still have 1 RIP and 1 cage, but again, I also play some number of Mox Diamond/Chrome Mox, so I can sometimes power it out turn 1. I did not realize you guys were playing it mainly for that reason. I am fine without warping my board and losing percentage points against other matchups, if they win before I can play a card, that's legacy.
I agree Faerie is definitely weak overall compared to something like RiP, so it comes down to the meta you expect to face.
Faerie was always recruitable, but the printing of Recruiter didn't instantly make Faerie a sideboard staple. It was the shift in metagame, i.e. the surge in BR Reanimator, that made it a more common include. There's a big debate as to the long-term viability of BR Reanimator in Legacy, so if it fades from popularity you might not see many Faeries in D&T sideboards in 6 months time.
I went from 2 RIP to 1 RIP and 2 Faerie. It's helped in other situations too, but there are a lot of graveyard dependent decks in my meta. Exiling the only dredgers from your Dredge opponent's graveyard before their draw step feels real good, especially because you used your mana to drop a threat. Or catching your opponent unawares and exiling a Loam when they don't have the mana to cycle the land in their hand. It's not always better, but particularly against Reanimator decks it's usually better.
Ok. I guess I can just be thankful I'm up against traditional gy lists like dredge, manaless dredge, storm, Ub reanimator, etc., instead of Re(d)animator. I will still play 1 in my board just to feel it out, but only because elves don't exist in my meta, so I'm fairly comfortable with dropping the cage for 1 faerie, but I think I'll end up staying @ 2 RIP.
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I finally got the chance to playtest vs Elves with my RW list and I must say that my sideboard might be a little overloaded for the Elves match-up.
After playing that match up a lot I had many reservations about boarding in only a single Containment Priest. Originally I cut the 2nd Containment Priest for a Path because I thought that speed was a concern. Speed is obviously still a concern but the quality of a card like Containment Priest is more meanigful when naturally drawn than tutored for with Recruiter and compared to a card like Path in then Elves match up. Also the Elves match up isnt so bad without Sudden Demise actually. They can obviously nut draw you but that happens when you dont play FoW and Brainstorm in your deck. Also 2nd Containment Priest is very good vs SnS.
Also I have decided to cut Manic Vandal from my board because any match up I board Vandal in against I also board in Council's Judgment. Against Shardless BUG and Grixis Control I can probably just lean on Pia and Kiran Nalaar in order to deal with late game Strixes and DRS and Sudden Demise is not a bad card to play vs these decks. Vs DnT Sparkmage is enough to swing games in my favor. Has anybody tried boarding in Sudden Demise for the mirror before?
Regarding the BR Reanimator decks is it not a sustainable plan to just Path/Swords their early Griselbrands and then make an attempt to seal the game with Rest in Peace and duder lock pieces?
Anyways a revision of my SB is
1 Rest in Peace
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Cunning Sparkmage
1 Path to Exile
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Sudden Demise
2 Council's Judgment
I might just cut the last RIP for the 2nd Faerie Macabre anyway just because I know that I can lean harder on Magus of the Moon if I am cutting corners.
Karakas and STP, then Faerie macabre, Rest in peace, Grafdigger’s cage, and Containment priest are indeed our best friends against BR reanimator. We actually have really lots of tools to screw up their plans, but the problem is always speed, as against many other combo decks. As I face many of them in my local meta, I totally remodeled my list for my last local tournament, adding lots of mana acceleration, hoping to bypass revealed Chancellors of the Annex and even resolve funky turn 1 Thalias. Here is the list :
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Plains
3 Karakas
3 Cavern of souls
1 Eiganjo Castle
4 Chrome Mox
4 Aether vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa’s jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Elvish spirit guide
4 Thalia, guardian of Thraben
4 Thalia, heretic cathar
3 Phyrexian revoker
3 Mother of runes
3 Flickerwisp
3 Stoneforge mystic
2 Recruiter of the guard
1 Sanctum prelate
Sideboard :
2 Containment priest
1 Mirran crusader
1 Fiendslayer paladin
1 Faerie macabre
1 Palace jailer
2 Cataclysm
2 Enlightened tutor
1 Seal of cleansing
1 Grafdigger’s cage
1 Rest in peace
1 Ethersworn canonist
1 Ghostly prison
I finished 3/1, won against MUD, UB reanimator, and BR reanimator. I particularly enjoyed flash-casting Containment priest out of nowhere with Elvish Spirit guide in response to reanimation. I also decided to include the green guides because I expected to face daze-based decks, but it never happened. Mox Chrome is actually more playable than what I feared (in particular with 8 legendary white cards), and can eventually even work to produce generic mana with an exiled Elvish spirit guide. If drawn in late game, the latter can also be played as a creature (that still nicely holds equipments) with Aether vial or eventually Cavern of souls. Chrome mox is much worse in late game, but it replaces 4 plains in my list, so I guess it’s an acceptable drawback, especially since I anyway expected to win faster than with a conventional list.
Unfortunately, I was quite disappointed to lose in finals against Elves. I however have not much regret as I did not see any fast mana on G1, and I had to mulligan to 5 during G2. He had good hands on both games (and Behemoth in hand two times which nicely bypassed my hate), so there wasn’t much I could do. The matchup is still very favored for Elves, but I believe there is space to easily steal games against them, with a quick resolved Thalia v2.0 for instance. I will try to get a hand on Simian spirit guides to replace the green ones at the next event. The green mana produced by the latter was only used as generic fast mana, and it was a shame I did not profit from the color splash at all, at least for just a single Gaddock Teeg in the SB (I only though about it too late). A real red splash would allow me to play additional hate in the form of Magus of the moon and Sudden demise, which would definitely be needed there.
If they know you're on D&T their first Entomb/Reanimate target isn't going to be Griselbrand, it's going to be Iona, Shield of Emeria. Think you can race a 7/7 with nothing but Phrexian Revoker... and relying on Aether Vial to put in your white creatures? :tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by gh0st_b1rd
My experience is that Archetype of Endurance is their go to if they know I am on Death and Taxes. Giving all their creatures hexproof is really good against us usually.
I agree that IF they play Archetype, it's their best and first choice. Having said that, my experience has been that most UBx Reanimator player's don't often play it (though they should), and the next best creature is Elesh Norn. I could be incorrect, but I do not believe so.
So, I've been playing a ton of Tempo for the past years and wanted something else for a change, so I made "Death & Taxes". But since I don't really liked to get Ports, I spiced up the list a bit.
This is what it turned out to be. You might think it's not really suitable for this D&T thread, but I can't really find a better place to drop it since it's more common with D&T then Eldrazi-aggro or Thalia-Stompy-alike decks.
Lands 23
10 Plains
2 Karakas
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
4 Eldrazi Temple
2 Ancient Tomb
Creatures 25
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Aven Mindcensor
Spells 12
4 AEther Vial
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Warping Wail
Sideboard 15
2 Rest in Peace
1 Grafdigger’s Cage
1 Manriki-Gusari
3 Lotus Petal
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Path to Exile
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Disenchant
Little explanation on why I picked some cards over the standard staples:
Displacer: Reuse/protect your own stuff or blink away the enemy horde to hit. Not much of a suprise here I guess
Though-Knot: Big body, really good ability. Basicly big hate bear.
Even Mindcensor: Used to be a staple I think. I like it now that I got the 2 Tombs.
Eldrazi Temple/Tomb: Ramp out the Eldrai
No Flickerwisp?: Already got Displacer that seems to handle pritty well. Also I always felt it was a bit awkward without Vial. It's really good in combination with Displacer but dropped it over it's 1WW casting cost an gave it's spot to Aven.
No Revoker main?: I don't know if it's worth the spot, might need some help with a list of targets to call in match-ups.
No Recruiter?: I was set on this list before recruiter came to the show. Also it seems slower
No Ports?: Nope...
No Factory?: Seems like a 1-off in alot of decks. I liked it but swapped it over to Tomb that seems to have a bigger impact.
The Petals sideboard are there to ramp out hatebears against decks like ANT/Storm where I don't need the AEther Vials and can use the turn 1 Talia on the draw.
So what do you guys here think of the list and got any ideas how to improve it?
I seem to have trouble playing vs Miracles. Is this a bad match-up for D&T in general or am I doing something wrong here?
Sorry. I saw the quote you were responding to was about BR reanimator. Just wanted to add a bit to that. I have found they go for archetype or iona as you said. I generally don't see Elesh Norn very often out of BR. Which strikes me as odd. It's very good against a lot of the field.Quote:
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
Draggo - that list looks very similar to how the Thalia Stompy deck originated. There were a number of players here experimenting with TKS and Displacer in a D&T shell, and "8 Thalia" decks spun out of that.
What are the best sideboard cards/plans vs aluren? I've found the matchup to be tough post board when they bring in multiple deluges and other removal to answer revoker and sanctum prelate.
Deluge will always be a great card against us unfortunately.Quote:
Originally Posted by cursecatcher
Ethersworn Canonist obviously does great work in the Aluren match-up.
Pithing needle.
If it's in there, Mindcensor can limit effectiveness of IRecruiters.
...and don't think Containment Priest will help you. The creatures are (unfortunately for us) technically being cast.
Real problem with the Aluren matchup is that they're doing relevant stuff even when they're not comboing. So if you put all of your energy towards not letting them resolve an Aluren, they can just outgrind you with Leovold, Baleful Strix, Decay, Shardless, DRS.
Ethersworn/Revoker/Relic Warder are all things you can do to avoid getting combo'd out, but I think you need to try and kill them quickly, cause you're not winning the long game, even when it's a fair long game. Mirran Crusader is probably the best bet here and if my local meta were filled with Aluren I would probably go deep on Crusaders.
It's possible to win through Iona Vial. You just gotta sequence right and have some luck on your side. Vial in a Flickerwisp exiling Iona and slam a Containment Priest, tt's not that far fetched really. If they have a Needle on Karakas you just flicker the needle and use Karakas. Same applies to Elesh Norn, you can beat those with Priest/Karakas and a wisp.Quote:
Originally Posted by RobNC
I found aluren to be beatable through Wastelands, Ports and swords/revokers on DRS.Quote:
Originally Posted by AsmodeusDM
I play 3 SFM and 3 Equipment in my MB, 5 out of those 6 go out (leaving only Jitte which is relevant), I also take out Mirran Crusader and Serra Avengers. My plan is:
-3 Stoneforge Mystic
-1 Batterskull
-1 Sword of Fire and Ice
-2 Serra Avenger
+2 Path to Exile
+2 Ethersworn Canonist
+2 Council's Judgment
+1 Cataclysm
I'd add a 2nd cataclysm and remove a Mother of Runes if I had a 2nd copy. If you don't let them cheat on mana to Get to aluren, force them to fetch basics to dodge Wastelands and port them often (even if you can't cast anything just to get more counters on your vial or to get more land-drops) you usually race them just fine. Prelate should be cast on 2, 3 or 4, depending on how the game develops (2 stops decay, 3 stops deluge and 4 -if everything is going out of control- stops aluren). It's usually a 50/50 MU, you can use flickerwisp and removal in key moments to close them off the combo, so you have to play very tight in the MU.
I play reanimator and grisel first is always a good choice, karakasing Iona is an instaloss almost all the time, where as reanimating grisel first turn is almost always an instawin. But sadly with the absurd amount of gravehate I'm seeing -DnT player overdo it the most :-D - you should be just fine.
Yeah, Reanimator getting an Iona is a YOLO play that works out for them sometimes but loses the game for them at least as often. I don't think good players actually do it too frequently. If they know you're on DnT, you probably know they're on Reanimator, so your chances of having a Karakas in your keep is even higher. If they can read your hand with a Thoughtseize effect, know for sure you don't have a Karakas + you don't have an active Vial, then Iona can be a fine play because your chances of drawing one within the next few turns are pretty low. And if you do have a Vial, you don't even need Containment Priest, you can also stay alive with Mom + Flyer, race them with double Flickerwisp, etc.