Miracle Control

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Originally Posted by goblinsplayer

I can't believe that this is actually being discussed. Both Myth Realized and Mentor are strictly inferior to JTMS and Entreat maindeck. I mean, those choices might be fine in the board to bring in when an opponent cuts their removal, but in maindeck, it makes all of their removal spells good against us. The reason that JTMS and entreat are the primary wincons in stock miracles decks is that they are not hit by some random removal spells. Making things like abrupt decay and STP hit our wincons sounds like a great way to lose.

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I wont deny that.
As you can read i already said that EtA and JTMS are the better and more stable win cons.
All I was trying to say was that there are some pros in playing myth and mentor that you just cant ignore. And you cant tell me that dealing with an early Liliana isnt a pro.
The discussion started with someone asking for opinions on myth and mentor and my opinion is that they are worth a test, but that i still think that JTMS and EtA more reliable.

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Originally Posted by Snoiz

I wont deny that.
As you can read i already said that EtA and JTMS are the better and more stable win cons.
All I was trying to say was that there are some pros in playing myth and mentor that you just cant ignore. And you cant tell me that dealing with an early Liliana isnt a pro.
The discussion started with someone asking for opinions on myth and mentor and my opinion is that they are worth a test, but that i still think that JTMS and EtA more reliable.

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Myth isn't a good card.

Mentor, from the sideboard, is strong however.

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Originally Posted by Quasim0ff

Myth isn't a good card.

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You sir, are as mad as a hatter. It has good synergies with other strong strategies. They may not work here for Miracles, but the statement you made is definitely incorrect.

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

Hello,

myth and mentor have both great streght but miracles is the wrong deck. With both cards you want to apply a degree of pressure and ending the game fast. So actuall myth and mentor are better of in Tempo decks and not in tradional late game control ones were you don´t want to play anything in your early turn but answers to you oponent threast to starve him out of them.

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Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee

You sir, are as mad as a hatter. It has good synergies with other strong strategies. They may not work here for Miracles, but the statement you made is definitely incorrect.

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

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Sorry, I obviously meant it in the context of Miracles. I think Myth needs to find it's own place, where it can shine. That isn't in Miracles, from my testing.

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Originally Posted by Quasim0ff

Sorry, I obviously meant it in the context of Miracles. I think Myth needs to find it's own place, where it can shine. That isn't in Miracles, from my testing.

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I think the best place for it would be in some kind of mono-white Stax deck, that locks down the board and can just sit there waiting until Myth is big enough to hit in a single turn.

Chalice of the Void wants a word with you.

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

So, returning to Miracles - is JTMS or DTT stronger vs Punishing Jund? I went through Philipp's logic in the matchup and it seems that this is another situation where we want RIP and DTT. JTMS not so much since Jund is good at dismantling it. So right now, using his 75, I think I would do this:

-2 JTMS
-3 FOW
+1 EE
+1 Disenchant
+1 CJ
+2 RIP

But is it better to do this or keep in 1 Jace and board out 1 DTT?

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Originally Posted by AnziD

So, returning to Miracles - is JTMS or DTT stronger vs Punishing Jund? I went through Philipp's logic in the matchup and it seems that this is another situation where we want RIP and DTT. JTMS not so much since Jund is good at dismantling it. So right now, using his 75, I think I would do this:

-2 JTMS
-3 FOW
+1 EE
+1 Disenchant
+1 CJ
+2 RIP

But is it better to do this or keep in 1 Jace and board out 1 DTT?

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These are the situations where I really, really do not the RiP's in the SB. Dig is one of the most important cards in the matchup, and Snapcaster is great. RiP can be situationally great against Jund, but they will eventually find an answer for it, at which point your RiP will have hurt you more than them.

This is why I like Relic of Progenitus. It's way better Vs Midrange strategies.

The only thing is, the matchups where I really want GY interaction, RIP just so far outclasses Relic that I have to play it.

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Originally Posted by AnziD

The only thing is, the matchups where I really want GY interaction, RIP just so far outclasses Relic that I have to play it.

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I think that's debatable. RiP is a more powerful effect, but it is 2 mana. I'd rather have RiP against Loam decks, but Relic dodges Daze and discard better against Reanimator. It's also nice against ANT because you can just keep activating the tap ability to keep them off threshold if you play it early enough, and you can hold up the 1 mana for combo turn if needed. Also I think Relic is a better card against RUG Delver because it's 1-mana, keeps Goose off thresh without sacrificing (which is its most important use), and allows you to play your Digs and Snapcasters which are great against RUG.

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Originally Posted by Patrunkenphat7

I think that's debatable. RiP is a more powerful effect, but it is 2 mana. I'd rather have RiP against Loam decks, but Relic dodges Daze and discard better against Reanimator. It's also nice against ANT because you can just keep activating the tap ability to keep them off threshold if you play it early enough, and you can hold up the 1 mana for combo turn if needed. Also I think Relic is a better card against RUG Delver because it's 1-mana, keeps Goose off thresh without sacrificing (which is its most important use), and allows you to play your Digs and Snapcasters which are great against RUG.

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But against Reanimator, the opponent definitely can play around Relic with the tools they already have in their deck G1. If they draw multiple copies of their combo, Relic is not as strong. On the other hand, RIP absolutely requires an exclusive answer. With all the countermagic we board in, the game is definitely going to go long enough such that we have an opportunity to play RIP and resolve it in the face of their Dazes and discard. Also, Reanimator players have Needle in the board, which can shut down Relic prematurely. The difference between 1 and 2 mana is real, but again, I personally think the effect's power is worth the extra investment because in the matchups where we play RIP, the card is doing something ridiculous (shutting down PFire, invalidating their entire game plan, etc). I'm not a huge fan of the "Relic can control the graveyard" argument because it requires that Relic be drawn early, and that is a big conditional. But most importantly is the last thing you said, where Relic "allows" you to play Dig and Snapcaster. I'm not saying this is 100% right, but I am not entirely sure that DTT and RIP are mutually exclusive.

Anyways, the point is not to debate about RIP, but to discuss JTMS and DTT in context of the boarding schema I wrote earlier. Unless you mean to say that you think JTMS is stronger against Jund now because DTT/RIP clashes too much.

Is Jund even something that is surging prior to Lille? Dont get me wrong, Ive been an advocate of builds that knock the stuffing out of Miracles, but I think people just aren't playing the powerful midrange strategies that do beat up on this deck.

What Im trying to say is, are you actually worried? I wouldnt be.

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Originally Posted by sdematt

Is Jund even something that is surging prior to Lille? Dont get me wrong, Ive been an advocate of builds that knock the stuffing out of Miracles, but I think people just aren't playing the powerful midrange strategies that do beat up on this deck.

What Im trying to say is, are you actually worried? I wouldnt be.

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To answer your question, no, not really. Though it isn't a matter of being worried, it was just a general knowledge question I think would be helpful to know the answer to.

OkaY cool. I really like Dig and hate seeing it, since it means you guys are able to ho really far and find the exact answer you need.

Dont get me wrong, Fires is a bitch, but not unbeatable. Youre more likely to Counterlock them than they are to hit all 4 decays for all 4 of your balances, should you decide to keep them in. Relic is still very good against their strategy, certainly.

I have just been playing containment priest over RIP since it was released and have not missed RIP. Vs every GY combo matchup, having a RIP with flash, that doesnt mess up our snaps and digs AND attacks for 2 is a godsend. Also, this card hoses S&T and elves. Its really a no brainer.

The matchups where you want to bring in RIP is lands, RUG and jund. All the other decks, having priest is better. Vs RUG or lands you can win without GY hate, its just nice to have. Both matchups are totally winnable without GY hate. Vs jund answering pfire is a must and CB is not reliable. That is pretty much the only downside of RIP over priest.

If you really want GY interaction vs lands or jund that doesnt mess up our own cards, play 1-2 surgical or blood moon in addition to 2 priests. Honestly though, I don't think that is even needed.

Mentor is great, Myth is fair. Terminus works better with Mith though..

I don't know if I would drop Jace or Snapmage for these, Entreat can always alt-win EOT...

4 Miracles in the Top 9 of SCG Cleveland Legacy Primer IQ

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...rt=1&finish=16

Noticeably, everyone except Joe is running some number of Ponders, with Sriharan's 4 Dig and 3 Snaps (is that even... viable?) as well as O'Neal's Zero Dig.

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Originally Posted by twndomn

4 Miracles in the Top 9 of SCG Cleveland Legacy Primer IQ
with Sriharan's 4 Dig and 3 Snap

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http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=83804 has two too many cards