[Primer] Elves!

So...GP Vegas mental prep work..

Has anyone played against the new miracles, new bomberman, big red, or food chain that can share some insight as to how the matchups go for us? I'm looking for generalized strategy type stuff moreso than sb guides (although your insight on that would be useful).

Those are decks I have not played against in the "new meta."

Thanks!

edit: What do folks think of faerie macabre over surgical to combat BR reanimator (which I expect to be quite popular)? It's not as good against storm/lands and it's strictly inferior vs miracles...but getting around chancellor, brutality, and exhume seems good and in a pinch can block marit lage and misc fliers (corner case, but still). Thoughts??

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Originally Posted by Shagstaman

So...GP Vegas mental prep work..

Has anyone played against the new miracles, new bomberman, big red, or food chain that can share some insight as to how the matchups go for us? I'm looking for generalized strategy type stuff moreso than sb guides (although your insight on that would be useful).

Those are decks I have not played against in the "new meta."

Thanks!

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From my testing-
Food Chain is very good for us. Think shardless/aluren, but their combo is abrupt decayable, sorcery speed, and they run 2-4 walking ballista, which is pretty good against us- not as good as, say, fatal push out of the other bug decks though.

New Miracles- even matchup, they can't just float terminus for the best possible time so we're able to get a pretty big advantage over previous iterations of the deck. Deck has a ton of air, so we can be more aggressive. They're very much a snapcaster deck now, and they don't have the countertop inevetability.

Bomberman- haven't played it either.

Big red- almost completely dependent on how well they draw. We can build our deck so it lines up with their blood moons/chalices etc postboard, we can't do much about their actual combo win. Very awkward matchup for sideboarding because we want decays and Thoughtseize, but we want to fetch a t1 basic. I don't bring in any discard. The deck is bad, I lent some of the cards out for one of my buddies to play and he T8d Worcester- his first competitive legacy tournament. Takes about as much skill as sneak and show but it's ridiculously inconsistent.

I'm going to post my SB guide for the 75 I'm running tonight or tomorrow, I have a few matchups left to write up but it should give you a little insight on new miracles and big red, I'm at work now but if you have any questions about either of these I've hit about 30-60 games against each in my testing gauntlet the past month or so, just shoot me a pm or ask away and I'll help as much as I can.

I wish I were going to Vegas, but I can't get away. I know that many of us who can't go would love to see as many reports as people are willing to write up. So please, don't let what happens in Vegas, stay in Vegas. Best of luck, one and all.

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Originally Posted by abombdiggity

great info

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This is perfect. Any information you're willing to share--I'm all ears. I am super experienced with most matchups, but since I choose not to play MTGO and have had a lot happening in my personal life recently I don't get as many games in as I used to.

Thanks!

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Originally Posted by henweigh

I wish I were going to Vegas, but I can't get away. I know that many of us who can't go would love to see as many reports as people are willing to write up. So please, don't let what happens in Vegas, stay in Vegas. Best of luck, one and all.

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I personally have high hopes. And worse case scenario--I'll hit up some WSOP events. :)

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Originally Posted by Shagstaman

I personally have high hopes. And worse case scenario--I'll hit up some WSOP events. :)

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Hear hear to high hopes! There's no reason that you or another elves pilot can't win the whole thing--though I would expect to see an uptick in the cheap red/black mass removal aimed at our pointy little ears.

I'm debating between a few different ways to board versus Infect. Presume a 3 Natural Order, 4 Heritage druid list and we're boarding these cards in:

3 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Abrupt Decay

My latest strategy has been to cut 1 Scavenging Ooze, 1 Reclamation Sage, 4 Green Sun's Zenith, and 3 more cards. Versus fast combo like Storm, cutting Glimpse is reasonable, as we maintain a way to win the game through controlling their graveyard with Deathrite and Scooze. Unlike Storm, you can't shift into aggro-control versus Infect as well as your graveyard disruption doesn't hit them at all. I've had too many games where my disruption hits and then I don't close the game out in a timely manner. To this end, I've been cutting GSZ as it makes for poor hands with Glimpse and isn't particularly fast in a matchup where speed is of utmost importance. I have been toying around and unsure on what other 3 cards to take out with this strategy. One thought has been to take out some combination of wirewood and Visionary as they are not particularly fast. I don't like cutting visionary as it's good at bridging disruptive draws into closing-the-game draws. The other consideration is to cut a glimpse or two and some enablers, as we do have more spells in the deck now. I don't love this strategy either as it leads to the original problem of not actually killing them.

What would you board out as the other 3 cards in this scenario? Has anyone else found an effective boarding strategy versus infect?

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Originally Posted by parsimonious

I'm debating between a few different ways to board versus Infect. Presume a 3 Natural Order, 4 Heritage druid list and we're boarding these cards in:

3 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Abrupt Decay

My latest strategy has been to cut 1 Scavenging Ooze, 1 Reclamation Sage...

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I would be very hesitant to cut GSZ as it's ability to plop a Dryad Arbor turn 1 is too important in giving you the option to race them. Cards that I would consider cutting would be 1-2 Heritage Druid, 1-2 Quirion Ranger, on the draw a land (a fetch as Cavern is relevant along with Pendelhaven), 1-2 Visionary, and 1-2 Glimpse. Essentially I feel you just want to shave down the combo element of our strategy in order to attack theirs.

Have any of you tryed Leovold against the "New" Miracles ( Predict, Unexpectedly Absent version ) ?

What are your thought on Leovold at the moment ?

Versus infect I would definitely keep the gsz.
Cut 3 NO, 1 hoof, 2 visio, 2 symbiote, 1 sage, 1 ooze.

this may be obvious to some; but Ruric Thar is coincidentally great vs infect.

btw I think you just cut some number of visionary, symbiote, rec sage, and scooze (if main) for 4-6 discards and a couple decay and call it a day..

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Originally Posted by Shagstaman

this may be obvious to some; but Ruric Thar is coincidentally great vs infect.

btw I think you just cut some number of visionary, symbiote, rec sage...

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I would be careful cutting Rec Sage as occasionally they will bring in Sylvan Library against us. Also another great card is Jitte.

Well, we're back in the place I like us to be; congratulations to us.

I haven't had a chance to look at almost any of the coverage of the GP, but I didn't notice us in the top 16. I hope we at least made a reasonable showing.

I can't wait to read the reports.

As we think about sideboarding, how should we be thinking about Thoughtseize and Cabal Therapy? Against which decks should we prefer one over the other or none at all? I find that these can be real stinkers to get in a Glmpse chain or later on. I do understand that they are for dealing with quicker combo decks, but I'd like some help thinking about when to side them in (and what to side out for them)?

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Originally Posted by henweigh

As we think about sideboarding, how should we be thinking about Thoughtseize and Cabal Therapy? Against which decks should we prefer one over the other or none at all? I find that these can be real stinkers to get in a Glmpse chain or later on. I do understand that they are for dealing with quicker combo decks, but I'd like some help thinking about when to side them in (and what to side out for them)?

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1. vs other combo decks just bring in all the discard. Vs the uber fast decks (belcher, tin fins, storm, mono red sneak, reanimator)take out all but 1-2 symbiotes and visionaries....but vs more midrange combo like our own, sneak attack, alluren, etc, take out some number of tutor spells (for example vs Sneak I take out 1 NO, 1 gsz, and 1 glimpse along with scooze and a few duders). The key here is to not go below 25-26 or so creatures so you can still glimpse respectably.

2. vs control it's a pure matter of preference; thoughtseize is g'teed value which is obv good..but therapy will always take out the card you are most scared of and the flashback is very useful. I usually side in 2-3 copies of some mix depending on my opponent and the matchup. This is very nuanced and I can't give specific examples--just try different things out and play it by feel honestly. I bring in more discard than I used to as I become more familiar with each strategy (vs stoneblade for example I always bring in 2+ therapies, but vs miracles I bring in 1 therapy and 1 thoughtseize...).

3. I normally bring in 1 cabal therapy whenever I side in progenitus as insurance for drawing it... it has won me a few games due to being able to put progenitus back in my deck but also has won me random games where I needed to get past a counter wall.

edit: if I get an opportunity I'll post up my gp vegas report soon..

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Originally Posted by Shagstaman

edit: if I get an opportunity I'll post up my gp vegas report soon..

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Writing is time consuming lol; here's a teaser but I need to get to bed cuz work and such--

Rd 3 vs Mark Stanton: Loss
I was coming off byes and knew this would be a test...I have a very bad tendency to give up the first match after bye rounds in GPs (maybe a mental block...who the hell knows). Mark was on BUG delver, a very favorable matchup imho. Game 1 I displayed why this is the case and just ran him out of countermagic while creating a ton of actual and virtual card advantage with our various engines. Game 2 was the highlight of the match and a game I'll personally never forget because it was a true learning moment. After a few exchanges of resources, I found myself with an opportunity to NO for progenitus with Mark only having one card left in hand...but it would tap me out AND leave me with only progenitus on the table. This is a scary proposition because A. they play daze and B. liliana is a thing. My options were to either assume he boarded out dazes (which is common amongst GOOD delver players, as daze is really bad vs elves) and just go for it or to play the thoughtseize in my hand to make 100% the coast was clear and play out one more guy--effectively playing around daze AND liliana. Well, I chose the first option...and I was correct in my assumption he was a good boy and boarded out daze; but in my hubris I left myself open to liliana and sure as shit he had it. He windmill slammed lily the following turn just as he wrote it up (he set this play up by thoughtseizing out one of my elves a few turns back). Well played Mark (no sarcasm, it was a very good play by him and I believe it was the only way for him to win the game given the resources he had at that stage). The moral, however, is that when you have can safely play around EVERYTHING--just do that. Why leave him outs?? :) lesson learned.
Oh and I died in game 3 to delvers. gg.

What is the logic behind Progenitus these days?

between Ruric Thar and Elderscale Wurm, I feel like everything Progenitus has to offer me is either less good than Ruric in the same situation or slams the door shut on a MU that is already very positive. Beyond that, I can at least get Ruric and Elderscale Wurm into play from my hand a reasonable amount of time, where Progenitus is just useless once drawn.

Am I way off base here or am I just missing a good argument?

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Originally Posted by JermStudDog

What is the logic behind Progenitus these days?

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not off base at all; you make good points! but here's my personal reasoning (and maybe others agree).

ruric thar can die in combat (must attack...and then they can block..) and dies to stp, thus making the matchups where he is a stone cold killer few and far between.

elderscale rarely "wins" you the game but does prevent you from dying (in some matchups this is as good as winning--like UR delver and burn)

The way I think about progenitus is that he is there to take away other decks' inevitability and give us a 2 turn clock in which they must win or die to hydra beatdown. The most classic example is DnT. Yes it's a good matchup, but they have a sb plan which can lead to us having a pile of uncastable cards in our hand. What they don't have is a reliable answer to progenitus...

tl:dr is that he basically blanks the sb plan of most decks by sidestepping all their spot removal and lock pieces.

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Originally Posted by Shagstaman

...Yes it's a good matchup, but they have a sb plan which can lead to us having a pile of uncastable cards in our hand. What they don't have is a reliable answer to progenitus...

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Progenitus is definitely one of most potential feel-bad cards in our sideboard and because of it's inability to be drawn and be uncastable obv causes many of us to remember those moments with so much more distinction.

One thing you do have to remember with DnT is that they do have an answer to Prog. Council's Judgement stops the Prog. plan cold so plan accordingly if you think your DnT opponent is well familiar with the match up.

Infrequent lurker here and took Elves to a 6-3 finish at GP Vegas before dropping to play sealed (an error in hindsight). I'll admit that I'm not very well-versed in Legacy these days as my local Legacy scene has dwindled over the years. I played Elves for a bit 2-3 years ago before jumping onto the Miracles bandwagon, and when Top got banned so close to Vegas I decided to fall back onto a somewhat familiar deck rather than learn a new deck. After playing 2 small local Legacy events and a handful of games with my buddy on mono-black Pox in Vegas, I dove headfirst into the GP. I've never written a tournament report before, so here goes! Here's the list I played and how my day 1 went according to my post-Vegas-hangover memory:

MAINDECK
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Birchlore Rangers
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Natural Order
2 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
2 Bayou
4 Gaea's Cradle
10 Fetchlands
SIDEBOARD
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1 Worldspine Wurm
1 Meekstone

Rounds 1-2: bye

Round 3: 2-1 against Sultai Delver
Game 1 I resolved an early Glimpse and swarmed him since I didn't find a Natural Order. Game 2 I ended up drawing both Craterhoof and Worldspine, then got my Meekstone Decayed and my board Toxic Deluged while facing down a pair of goyfs. Game 3 I was more careful with Toxic Deluge, so I exposed only Dryad Arbor, Wirewood Symbiote and Elvish Visionary until he Deluged. I rebuilt with another Symbiote/Visionary, Decayed a goyf and a Cage, played a Meekstone that did nothing, got my Natural Orders Invasive Surguried, ended up drawing both Craterhoof and Worldspine again, got my Craterhoof countered, and eventually resolved the Worldspine Wurm, which earned the concession.

Round 4: 0-2 against 4-color Leovold
This was the first time I played against this deck and it felt bad. Game 1 I didn't stick much action and was cold to Leovold. Game 2 he got me to tap out with Ooze in play in response to his Deathrite activation for mana (I thought he needed that third mana but he didn't), then Forked Bolted my Ooze, played a Jace with Deathrite back to block, countered my GSZ for 6, Deluged my board and killed me with Leovold.

Round 5: 2-1 against Food Chain
Game 1 we both had slow draws, and I was delivering very mediocre beats when he found Baleful Strix, which threatened to speed bump me. However, my sandbagged maindeck Reclamation Sage cleared the way and eventually got there. Game 2 I did not board in Decays and opened with 2x Thoughtseize but no black mana. I GSZ'ed for Deathrite so that I could start casting Thoughtseizes, but then he played Leovold on his turn and I was cold to it as I had nothing going on. Some turns later he comboed off and put a lot of 3/3s into play. Game 3 he had a slow draw and died to a lot of trample damage after tapping out for a Griffin.

Round 6: 2-0 against Burn
Game 1 he traded some burn spells for my guys, which slowed us both down. Eventually he tapped out for Sulfuric Vortex with some cards in hand and me at 8 life, so I figured if I couldn't win on my turn then I would lose on his turn. Fortunately a topdecked Natural Order allowed me to attack for exactly lethal (thanks to Goblin Guide for drawing me some lands!). My game 2 opener had the cards for a turn 2 Natural Order. He led with fetchland and Lava Spike and I led with Forest, GSZ for Dryad Arbor. He played a land on turn 2 and passed, which seemed strange to me, so I tried to play around removal on my turn 2 by leading with Quirion Ranger, activate Ranger to make 2 mana with Dryad Arbor, then play Cradle and Natural Order for Ruric Thar. He suspended Rift Bolt on turn 3 and passed. I attacked him down to 12, and when he pointed Rift Bolt at Ruric Thar, I said "you take 6" and he conceded.

Round 7: 0-2 against Miracles
Several turns into game 1 I found myself with a board of 4 creatures after he Portented me and left the cards on top. One of the cards he let me draw was GSZ, which I cast for 8 with the Cradle in play and the Cradle in hand. He responded with Brainstorm and blind miracled Terminus, so I attack him for 6. He then makes a bunch of angels and I concede. Game 2 I Thoughtseize his Terminus, letting him keep Jace, Spell Snare and a cantrip, but I couldn't find enough action before dying to monks and angels. I brought in Decay for Containment Priest.

Round 8: 2-0 against Hypergenesis
In game 1 my opponent's first 4 plays were basic Island and 3x basic Forest (all Unglued, props for that). He then pitched Shardless Agent to Force of Will before dying. I was confused about that sequence of events, so I boarded as if he was on Aluren and brought in Decays for Leovold. He mulliganed and when I Thoughtseized him in game 2, the gig was up. He had a Tropical Island and a Breeding Pool in play with Shardless Agent, Hypergenesis, Griselbrand and Blazing Archon in hand, so I take the Shardless Agent. A Force of Will and a land drop later, he hadn't found another Shardless Agent and died.

Round 9: 1-2 against BR Reanimator
We completed our 3-game match in 14 minutes, most of which was spent on shuffling. Game 1 I led with basic Forest (my only turn 1 mana source in hand) and Deathrite Shaman. His turn 1 was Badlands, Faithless Looting pitching Iona and Griselbrand, Chrome Mox imprinting Reanimate, Dark Ritual, Thoughtseize me. I tanked for 10 seconds before conceding with Thoughtseize on the stack. I figured he wouldn't play Dark Ritual there without a follow-up reanimation spell. On the other hand, not many decks lead with basic Forest and Deathrite Shaman, so I didn't have much information to hide anyway. Game 2 my opener had Surgical Extraction and action, so I kept. He attempted to Animate Dead Iona on turn 1 unprotected, so I Surgical it and 2 turns later he died to Craterhoof. Game 3 he mulliganed so I decided to keep my 7, which had 2 lands, 3x GSZ and 0 Surgicals. As I understand, this Reanimator deck can mulligan into oblivion and beat itself, so I hoped that turn 3 Scavenging Ooze would be good enough. Unfortunately, his 6 card hand was the nuts as he revealed Chancellor, played land, Dark Ritual, Entomb for Iona, Animate Dead Iona.

That's all I have for my GP Vegas report. For sideboarding, I tend to shave 2 Glimpses along with some combination of Birchlore Rangers, Heritage Druid, Nettle Sentinel, Reclamation Sage and Elvish Visionary when boarding in discard and/or Decays. When I board in a Natural Order target (Ruric Thar, Worldspine Wurm), I'll usually cut a Craterhoof. Meekstone was meh and maybe would have been better as a Choke. I've never been a fan of Progenitus, probably because I seem to always draw it.