Red is mainly used for Sneak Attack. Is there an argument to instead use blue for Show and Tell? At which point you would want Lost Legacy. Though at that point I think you just become a worse Sneak and Show.
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Red is mainly used for Sneak Attack. Is there an argument to instead use blue for Show and Tell? At which point you would want Lost Legacy. Though at that point I think you just become a worse Sneak and Show.
I'm sure this has been discussed before in the thread. Jund doesn't run Stoneforge which makes Arbor a lot less relevant. The Sneak Attack deck is already a combo list, which means we have a lot of possible dead draws in the deck (Emrakul without Sneak, redundant Sneaks, etc). Adding in more cards we never want to draw isn't great.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
We're already better off against other combo decks than most Nic Fit lists because we have a faster clock. We already get better use out of Zenith than other Nic Fit lists because in this deck it's a combo piece, so we would be willing to use it for Arbor less.
The list also plays Groves which means double black is harder for the deck to make than BR by quite a margin. This also means we're lower on fetch lands, which makes us less likely to be able to fetch up Arbor in the few situations where it's relevant.
Miracles is not a match up we're happy to ignore, and swapping LL in means we have less viable sideboard cards for that matchup. Arbor itself is okay against Miracles only if you have a way of making it actually threatening, like equipment or pump effects, which we don't have, so it's not gonna do much.
The deck is also already quite full of slots we want in there - 4 fatties, 7 removal, 6 ramp, 4 zenith, 4 therapy, 2 Empath, Witness, Thrag, 3 top, 4 Sneaks leaves us with just 3 more flex slots, and if one of those is Arbor the others probably have to be payoff cards like Diabolic Intent and Meren. I don't think a list like that is any better off than a build running other less situational cards in that slot, particularly against Miracles.
So I've had a couple of Sneak Fit god hands this evening and they have lifted my spirits from a couple of bad Miracles punts. Really wish I had some more people around me to practice that matchup in person.
Phyrexian Tower + fetch + Veteran Explorer + Sneak Attack...
Burn player not expecting to face hasty Emrakul on turn 2 :laugh:
You cause another match up to become worse by doing that. You can't look at only one side of the problem. Dryad Arbor isn't played in the combo-oriented lists because it exposes us to Delver. We aren't Maverick. We don't get free mana from our creatures without paying a cost. Playing a land that allows other decks to interact with our mana directly impacts our fair match ups, which are supposed to be favorable. Sneak Fit isn't a midrange deck; it's a ramp deck. There have been Jund Fit lists that have played Dryad Arbor. They aren't combo decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
You know I've been running a skeleton similar to the Sneak Fit list for over a decade, right? It didn't run SFM in any of its iterations (and neither does my Junk list, by the way) so that isn't really an argument. Yes, it might call for a Diabolic Intent, but how bad is Diabolic Intent in a deck where you try to pair up 2 cards..? Seriously. The only valid point you have is that of the manabase, which is as true as can be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
Vs. Delver Dryad Arbor gets Bolted/Wastelanded, meaning they have one less card to mess with the stuff you actually care about. That, in your eyes, is making the MU worse..? You do know that 4 spotremoval + 4 Wasteland is usually all they have to mess with us, right..? Having them give up one of those for a Dryad Arbor isn't that horrible. If they don't, all your followup spells either have Daze-proof (blanking 4 more of their cards) or can be powered out a turn earlier. Which is something else they have trouble dealing with. But yeah, that's probably not very helpful in that particular MU. Well, alrighty then.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zirath
Let me guess, you also consider Dryad Arbor to be a land, especially when you see it in your opening 7, and you don't like running too many DRS b/c they die to our own Pernicious Deed..? (I'm just trying to understand your mindset here)
So what do you play beyond 1-2 Intent that makes Arbor any good? You have to be playing something to make it amazing (like Pod) to make up for the awful topdecks Intent and Arbor are most of the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
I'm not happy with making Miracles better against the deck for the sake of our combo matchups. Sneak already has some of the better combo matchups compared to other Nic Fit builds, there's no point trying to skew harder against them at the expense of others.
No you don't. All you need are Intent and Arbor, that's enough. GSZ into Arbor allows you to power out Sneak Attack a turn early (or through Daze), fetch Arbor into Intent gets you either the Sneak Attack or the fattie you need to assemble your plan. Do you know why it's viable? B/c it helps you execute the crazy strong plan of Sneak Attack into Emrakul. That plan lets you get away with a lot of stuff you otherwise wouldn't be able to pull off.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
Zenithing Deathrite does the same thing, since you weren't casting Sneak on turn two anyway, and doesn't give you a completely dead topdeck in your deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
I don't think the ability to Intent for a combo piece is worth the amount the cards otherwise weaken the deck. We aren't 100% all-in on the combo (without Sneak we can still just cast Titans till our opponent loses) and we already run five sources of Sneak and ten sources of Emrakul.
Fetchland - Arbor into Intent costs enough mana that we're not going to be able to play Sneak + activate that turn. It also costs us a land drop, meaning we need to have made six mana sources before we go off with sneak+activate since we sacrificed one of them. If we're going to six mana sources, last turn we had 5, so Sidisi would have done the same thing, without providing card disadvantage and while way more relevant without the other half of the combo, giving us a lot less dead draws.
so....2-5 with sneaky.
Some of due to rust, some of due to deck construction.
List
3 Veteran Explorer
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 O. Baloth (should have been a DRS)
1 Thragtusk
1 Sidisi, Undead Vizier
1 Grave Titan
1 Inferno Titan
1 Woodland Bellower
1 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Worldspine Wurm
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Punishing Fire
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Sneak Attack
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Sylvan Library
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
3 Forest
2 Mountain
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
sb::
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Dread of Night
2 Slaughter Games
1 Chandra, Flamecaller
1 Nissa, Vital Force
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Blood Moon
Round 1: Dredge
Game 1: Study, into many dredge and brings the beats (didn't see the sneaks, but did see the Groves)
Game 2: He kept a triple firestorm hand with no dredgers and promptly dies to some hasty stuff.
Game 3: Some back and forth. I mistap while spinning a top while I have a deluge in my hand vs about 8 power and 1 bridges, then draw from top to surgical his bridges when I plan to sneak in bellower/emrakul (both in hand). play top, spin top (because I'm dumb, sneak attack was on top), play fetch and crack fetch for my 3rd red source of the game and he claims my sneak. :( That cost me.
Round 2: Maverick
Game 1: Oh boy. Grave Titan, Worldspine and even Meren did work here. His knight got huge....with a batterskull and a sword of fire and ice on it. I kept chumping with tokens, getting some counters for meren and buying time. Punishing fire picked off some small creatures when I had a chance. Finally found a decay and then a deed. He survived 3 emrakul hits.....but I got him to 0 from at least 150.....just ugh.
Round 3: Omni-Tell
Game 1: I still basic island and then volcanic with only a (ponder or brainstorm), so I figure a sneak/show deck (which is fine since I have a sneak in my hand). I miss a library trigger (after top at the end of turn), which had a STE and maybe a fattie on top. I try to blind therapy him but he forces. He decides to s & T, I spin top and leave the fattie on top. He drops Omni, I drop sneak. Sadly he has the emrakul (sadly, I only had 6 permanents in play) He would have been dead on my next turn.
Game 2: He keeps a no color land hand, and I keep surgical, TS, Therapy, Sneak, Tusk, Land, Land. I take the force which leave him with a cunning wish, intuition?, 2 sol lands and a griselbrand and a sneak. He bricks on lands for a couple of turns while I therapy he griselbrand and surgical his forces to make sure my sneak resolves. I go the sneak tusk route which gets him to 10 but I can't draw another fattie before he kills me.
Round 4: BUG Delver
Game 1: I get hymn'd, drs and delver and scoop before another hymn reveal my sneaks.
Game 2: Pretty much like game 1 but fires get surgical'd.
Round 5: Aggro Loam
Game 1: I bring the fatties to his face after turn 1 chalice on from him.
Game 2: Chalice on one again and I totally forget about the dark depths combo.
Game 3: Very Grindy. I kill his stuff after getting stuck on lands for a while and him having wastelanded me a bit. He keeps loam for the combo, while I hopefully draw my blood moons. He wins the race
Round 6: MUD
Game 1: He landed a bridge while trying build his board. Landed a sneak, decay the bridge and ran him over.
Game 2: Turn one revoker on deed, turn 2 trinisphere. I bait out a wasteland on my grove to play my witness getting back a fetch and then landing blood moon while he only has 2 lands and I have 3. Sneak comes into play and just a matter before the wurms show up.
Round 7: Burn
Game 1: Turn one Guide....yep, figures it would end this way. Almost won, however. She is at 16, when I sneak in Emrakul (over a thragtusk) when I was at 6? (and I knew she had a price in hand because I got 2 revels on the flashback), she has 7 permanants, one of which is a fetchland. She keeps the guide over the great revel and I brick with a sneak in play (and 6 lands in my hand)
Game 2: Nothing really special here. I just get roasted
My thoughts on the build. Me dumb for no DRS in main. Sidsi never happened. Meren was meh despite the one match. Griselbrand was activated like once all day. Never played inferno. Grave, wurm and bellower were all awesome.
Fires were meh. Almost want the 3rd decay back. Also want more card draw between a 3rd top, painful truths and maybe a vulturous aven (4 mana 2/2, exploit draw 2)
Board: There was a bit of D & T, so I feel the dread of night was correct. The blood moons were fine along with the 2 thoughtseize but most everything else was meh.
I keep thinking about other 2/3 mana creatures we could get......spike feeder/finks (for burn), loaming shaman for dredge, Carven Caryatid (2/5 wall, draw a card) or good ol' Wood Elves.
How is having an alternative for GSZ into DRS (which you can cast through Daze w/ the same amount of mana as you need to GSZ for DRS) a problem..? "Oh no, I just managed to drop a manadork through your Daze. Dammit!"Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
Yes, pulling off Emrakul to the face more consistently or a turn faster isn't a high enough payoff. Emrakul to the face sucks.
Concerning fetchland into Arbor - Who ever said you wanted to do it all in 1 turn..? Lol. When you're looking to combo out, you have to plan several turns ahead. Getting all your ducks in a row is one of the things you need to do before even attempting to combo off. Who cares fetch into Arbor takes up one of your land drops..? How is that relevant? You might want to look at when you attempt to pull off fetch for Arbor... It sure as shit isn't on T3. The same goes for Sneak Attack - you don't just slam that down as soon as you hit 4 mana and pray to Arianrhod it'll all work out. You poke your opponents defenses and only when you find a hole you can squeeze through, you go for it. If you can't, you sit and bide your time.
If you want to ramp into a fast Sneak, Zenithing a DRS is just as fast as Zenithing an Arbor. Let's be honest, against Daze decks you aren't doing either of these things, because Vet is the better choice than either option and you're more interested in stabilizing than trying to combo off quickly and getting blown out by Force.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Arbor doesn't speed up the combo any more than the other options, and our Zeniths are already important because they're combo pieces themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
If our current rate of Combo / Grind / Fizzle is 60%/35%/5%, I don't think going to 62%/30%/8% (for example) is necessarily an improvement. You're increasing the combo-out rate, but you're also increasing the fizzle rate by introducing more dead draws. I'd rather have a consistent deck that occasionally has to finish a game by beating down with 6-drops than a deck that makes Emrakul a little more frequently, but also loses to itself more.
Sure, okay. If you're doing it lategame and not worried about the mana - why not just play Sidisi? Does the same thing, but only costs you one card rather than two and doesn't make your lategame topdecks horrible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Actually, when I know my opponent is running Daze, Stifle and Wasteland I'll sure as shit GSZ for Arbor before attempting to resolve and trigger a Veteran Explorer. You need to make it as difficult as you can for your opponent to lock you out of your mana. It can be the difference between life and death.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
Your second point is more than fair. To each their own!
And for your third point - your opponents aren't sure of what you're doing. Sidisi, as a big, 5 mana creature, signals "I'm going to mess you up, you should respond to this", fetching an Arbor and feeding it to Intent says "This might be dangerous, but I'm 2-for-1-ing myself. What do I know?". And lategame it might just leave you with enough mana to drop the hate card you Intented for rather than having to wait a turn. I've won several games vs. dredge that I had no business of winning by feeding my DRS to a Diabolic Intent and dropping Rest In Peace the same turn, lol. Couldn't have done that with Sidisi.
Against Daze, if you have multiple mana cards in hand (Vets, Zeniths) then playing around Daze is naturally pretty good - I'd rather make a Vet and Zenith for another one personally.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Interestingly I'd see it as the other way round. Intent, to me, says 'I'm willing to 2-for-1 myself to get this card, so it's going to be absolutely amazing' where Sidisi only cost one card so it's slightly less huge - you just know it's better than a 4/6 with Deathtouch.
Intent is probably more relevant if you're playing powerful hate effects though - I could see it being more useful if you're playing 'end the game if I resolve' spells like Blood Moon. I was running a more traditional sideboard with Needles/GCharms/Extractions/Thoughtseize/Slaughter.
That's because you know what you're up to :wink:. Not every opponent is that knowledgable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
I guess Intent might be some food for thought then? Blood Moon, Boil, Ruination (or From the Ashes).
It's definitely more useful there, but I don't think it's worth the slots. Especially since your opponents will be bringing in Enchantment hate / Hydroblast for Sneak Attack already. Not gonna judge if someone wants to give it a try, but I'm still of the opinion the consistency hit isn't worth it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Sorry to hear that. The dredge loss is probably the backbreaker there, since it pushed you into the random bracket. Sneak is certainly capable of dealing with randoms (see also your 2-0 vs MUD), but that doesn't mean it's necessarily preferred.Quote:
Originally Posted by jbone2016
Thoughts on the list:
3 Vets 0 DRS is a problem, as you noted. This deck needs its ramp very badly, especially Vet -- Vet is one of the stronger cards in the deck, which isn't typically true of most Nic Fits, oddly enough.
Griselbrand and Worldspine Wurm are extraneous. You just don't need either of them -- it's not that they're bad, certainly, they're just unnecessary. Griselbrand has basically been replaced by Woodland Bellower (what a sentence that is), and Worldspine is generally going to be worse than any of the other fatties. I guess if you really wanted one extra fatty, then Worldspine isn't the /worst/ thing in the world for that slot...but at the point at which you're two fatties over average count, you're going to run into stability problems.
Is Dread of Night better than Massacre?
Questions on the performance:
How was the 2/1 Top/Library split?
How was the removal suite? Did you see Fires enough? I know you mentioned wanting the 3rd Decay -- would finding room for the 3rd Decay in addition to 3 Fires and 3 Deeds be too much?
Did you ever end up needing to Bellower and not have Empath to grab?
How was the mana base in general?
Notes on matchups:
-) Dredge is very winnable if they don't just go off instantly. From all accounts, he had favorable hands for you to beat him and you (by admission) screwed it up. It happens. Don't beat yourself up!
-) Maverick is fine but you do have to respect the probable Dark Depths/Stage combo. I'm guessing he didn't have it, or at least he didn't think to go for it?
-) OmniTell there's nothing you can do about game 1. MAYBE if you hadn't forgot the Library trigger you could've drawn STE to Therapy (he FoW), play STE, flashback? I don't know enough info to know if that would've worked that way or not, but it's a thought. I think you played game 2 incorrectly (maybe it's just a difference, I don't know). I would've taken the Sneak Attack or the Griselbrand, almost certainly Sneak though. Here's why:
If you take Sneak Attack (and surgical it), he is forced on to Show and Tell. This means that he is /also/ forced on to Show and Tell + Omniscience, because if he Shows Grisel or Emrakul, he could just lose depending on what we put in, and he's not going to be willing to take that chance (let alone if you Empath for Emrakul to show him that you have it, as a nuclear deterrent of sorts). Since he had neither Show and Tell nor Griselbrand, it buys you the maximum amount of time of anything you could take in that hand. You tried way too hard to be the beatdown -- vs a slow combo deck like Omni/Sneak/whatever we're calling it these days, you want to be the control first, and then slam the door in their face real fuckin hard. Taking Sneak also opens you to the possibility of drawing Slaughter Games for "lethal," naming Show and Tell.
-) Hymn, Hymn, I win. BUG is easily the scariest Delver for us just because of that card.
-) Not much to go on, but don't forget the combo! Your best bet here is, as in many cases, Emrakul him. The more permanents he has to get rid of, the better. Surgical and Slaughter are 'okay,' especially if he's Loaming for the combo, but the better plan is to see to it that he just doesn't have the ability to do anything.
-) MUD doesn't seem as scary for Sneak, especially with the addition of the Fires. Always feels good to beat that deck.
-) Depending on the math and board state, and when the Flashback Therapy actually happened, it might have been more correct to take the Price and leave her with the Eidolons. Eidolon damages the burn player, too, and Eidolon is a much slower clock than Price is, generally speaking, especially if you already knew you were going to be Sneaking Emrakul // just needed to draw Zenith or another monster. There may have also been a line you could've taken to Sneak Thragtusk defensively as a blocker, but again, I'm not sure depending on the actual sequence of events.
What you are describing is exactly Scape Fit loses to not only Delver but also DnT. We don't have cantrips. If we miss on land drops while being disrupted, we can't do anything to change our options. We have to work with what's in our hand. The more time we give Delver and DnT, the more difficult the match up becomes. Trading a Bolt/Stp or a Waste for an entire turn of free board development is great for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
As I said, I'm specifically referring to Scape/Sneak builds, not the midrange builds. The design theory is entirely different for those decks.
It's amazing to see Kevin still on here. He must have a pimped out deck :P I think I've read something Tao posted too...
This is just my ghostly opinion but;
I always played Arbor in Nic Fit, even with 3-4 Deeds. As a non-blue GSZ control and ramp deck that relies almost entirely on Cabal Therapy as its mainboard piece of disruption, I found Dryad to be most fitting and most necessary.
GSZ into Arbor is merely an option, not an obligation...
Oh here on the topic of combo-ish Nic Fit decks, this is the last list I've played and by far the most consistent:
Reanimator Fit
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 Entomb
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Reanimate
1 Unburial Rite
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
3 Swamp
2 Forest
1 Plains
//SB
4 Thoughtseize
3 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Vengeful Pharaoh
1 Grave Titan
1 Blazing Archon
It plays all the usual control and ramp but with better fatties, more Therapy flashbacks, and an Oops button that gives us game for our worst matchups.
New GSZ toy! This is brutal against Delver.
http://i.imgur.com/c5Bktyw.jpg
Looks interesting. Needing four colours is probably a bit of an issue, though - 4C lists can be fine but are very cramped for slots. She's resistant to finishers, being the same slot as Meren (4 toughness, 4CMC) but just as vulnerable to Karakas and less relevant if she doesn't survive till we untap.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dissection
Being a finisher that is worthless at killing Miracles is not a good place to be.