[Deck] GW/x Maverick

I play GWb mainly and I have to agree that dark depths although very sweet sometimes can be quite awkward and overall doesn't help the bad matchups. It is tempting though.

How do you guys feel about sfm?

I have cut sfm for awhile and haven't really missed her.

To me she just always felt slow and the payoff was not always good. Here's an example

t1: do whatever

t2: sfm grab jitte

t3: play jitte off sfm and then they abrupt decay/answer it

Some line or form of the above play seemed to happen often. Basically I spent 2 turns playing a 1/2 ....Yes they did spend a piece of removal on the equipment or TS so technically I came out on CA in that type of situation but the loss of tempo seemed brutal.

SFM is obviously not bad but I've been more happy running Garruk Relentless, More abrupt decays,an extra copy of sylvan library and generally more hatebears depending on the meta.

I want to hear your guy's experience if you haven't been on sfm and how you feel about it?

Maybe you ran without SFM and hated it.

Just want to hear your thoughts Maverick friends.

You should be picking your spot better. There's little times that trying to get jitte on a dude and trying to connect that early is right. You should be forcing them to answer other things before the jitte if it's that important.

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

You should be picking your spot better. There's little times that trying to get jitte on a dude and trying to connect that early is right. You should be forcing them to answer other things before the jitte if it's that important.

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That's fair. Part of why I ask! I know I can always be improving and learning. So generally would you say sfm is something you save for the mid to late game, generally speaking? I know there are no hard fast rules :tongue:

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Originally Posted by Luthiereisfun

That's fair. Part of why I ask! I know I can always be improving and learning. So generally would you say sfm is something you save for the mid to late game, generally speaking? I know there are no hard fast rules :tongue:

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It depends on the match-up and how important resolving stoneforge or getting the equipment into play is. Against decks where jitte wrecks house and wins you the game I often try to bait force of wills, dazes, decays or whatever on other cards before casting the stoneforge, but I really do believe its context dependent as sometimes just slamming mystic turn 2 is the correct play or even the best play.

I am fine with stone forge on turn two, but I generally let the weapon sit in my hand until I need it or find a window where they tap down or are vulnerable. Cradle really helps with that as with 2 or three mana your opponent may tap out expecting you to not have the ability to cast and equip in the same turn, then cradle drops and you poop on their chest

Thanks guys, that all makes sense and seems well. Looks like I should bust sfm out again and play a bit more smart

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Originally Posted by Luthiereisfun

I play GWb mainly and I have to agree that dark depths although very sweet sometimes can be quite awkward and overall doesn't help the bad matchups. It is tempting though.

How do you guys feel about sfm?

I have cut sfm for awhile and haven't really missed her.

To me she just always felt slow and the payoff was not always good. Here's an example

t1: do whatever

t2: sfm grab jitte

t3: play jitte off sfm and then they abrupt decay/answer it

Some line or form of the above play seemed to happen often. Basically I spent 2 turns playing a 1/2 ....Yes they did spend a piece of removal on the equipment or TS so technically I came out on CA in that type of situation but the loss of tempo seemed brutal.

SFM is obviously not bad but I've been more happy running Garruk Relentless, More abrupt decays,an extra copy of sylvan library and generally more hatebears depending on the meta.

I want to hear your guy's experience if you haven't been on sfm and how you feel about it?

Maybe you ran without SFM and hated it.

Just want to hear your thoughts Maverick friends.

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Don't play creatures, they can be plowed... Don't play non-basics, those can be wasted...

Seriously, SFM and Jitte are very strong against any kind of creature decks, including those that run decays. You should just diversify your threats, so that they couldn't decay your Knight, Sword and Jitte, something will live [emoji14]

In the worst case scenario, a decayed Jitte trades 1-by-1 to decay, and sfm stays, so you are still in an advantage by a 1/2 body. Just play your Knight now and stomp them ;)

If you're playing a Zenith version, consider a singleton of Rallier to get Jitte back, he can be really interesting :)

P.S. if tempo is your issue, give Vial Maverick a try, it's notably faster.

I think it's all about picking your spots with the weapons. Sometimes it is best to simply jam them and see if it's good enough, and sometimes it is. My favorite is if I untap with stoneforge is to then deploy other threats and keep beating my opponent with those so it forces them to answer, then at some point you just flash in equipment end of turn and wreck them. It's often not about using all of your mana every turn. Maybe I just play differently then others, but I probably waste a lot of mana by simply being patient.

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

I think it's all about picking your spots with the weapons. Sometimes it is best to simply jam them and see if it's good enough, and sometimes it is. My favorite is if I untap with stoneforge is to then deploy other threats and keep beating my opponent with those so it forces them to answer, then at some point you just flash in equipment end of turn and wreck them. It's often not about using all of your mana every turn. Maybe I just play differently then others, but I probably waste a lot of mana by simply being patient.

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Strategy here really depends on who are you playing against. Playing patiently is usually a good decision for Maverick, but sometimes it becomes a race (often vs D&T or Delvers) and really just depends on who is the first to slam the door :p

Sometimes, e.g. if opponent plays Stifle, Vendillion Clique or Sudden Shock, it's better to slam the equip outright while they're tapped, so that they couldn't respond. Sometimes, it's important to play mind games, keeping opponent confused whether you will Swords/Decay or activate Mystic.

P.S. and leaving Mystic's activation for EOT, keep an eye on the vial for 2 - sometimes, angry Revokers come outta there :p

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

I think it's all about picking your spots with the weapons. Sometimes it is best to simply jam them and see if it's good enough, and sometimes it is. My favorite is if I untap with stoneforge is to then deploy other threats and keep beating my opponent with those so it forces them to answer, then at some point you just flash in equipment end of turn and wreck them. It's often not about using all of your mana every turn. Maybe I just play differently then others, but I probably waste a lot of mana by simply being patient.

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Definitely an interesting strategical topic that doesn't come up much, especially with non-blue decks. Saving your equipment and just deploying threats is always a fun line of play given that your opponent knows that they get wrecked by the jitte, but have to mount a defense against our aggression. Definitely a good way to put our opponents in a tight squeeze.

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Originally Posted by Luthiereisfun

I play GWb mainly and I have to agree that dark depths although very sweet sometimes can be quite awkward and overall doesn't help the bad matchups. It is tempting though.

How do you guys feel about sfm?

I have cut sfm for awhile and haven't really missed her.

To me she just always felt slow and the payoff was not always good. Here's an example

t1: do whatever

t2: sfm grab jitte

t3: play jitte off sfm and then they abrupt decay/answer it



Some line or form of the above play seemed to happen often. Basically I spent 2 turns playing a 1/2 ....Yes they did spend a piece of removal on the equipment or TS so technically I came out on CA in that type of situation but the loss of tempo seemed brutal.

SFM is obviously not bad but I've been more happy running Garruk Relentless, More abrupt decays,an extra copy of sylvan library and generally more hatebears depending on the meta.

I want to hear your guy's experience if you haven't been on sfm and how you feel about it?

Maybe you ran without SFM and hated it.

Just want to hear your thoughts Maverick friends.

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I never played Maverick without stoneforge. The power level of Maverick isn't very high and you need the equipment to help make your creatures a threat. Without the equipment, the only real threat attacking wise is KOTR.

Been playing Maverick again, I'm currently in a league with a darker version with 3 bobs 2 Liliana 2 gsz 2 kotr 2 tracker. I beat bug delver, 4 color control and dark depths. I loss to Miracles. Game 3 I wasted his turn 1 tundra and struggled to get pass 2 lands that game, blind counterbalance on turn 3 hit my confidant unfortunately or I easliy would of taken the game over since he only had island and volcanic. Tireless tracker has been a great threat and took over quite a few games. I'm liking the number at 2.

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Originally Posted by aspsnake

There are several issues with the DD+TS combo in Maverick atm.

1) It doesn't improve our current bad matchups, e.g. combo or Miracles
2) It does take a spell slot (DD) and hurt your manabase (TS).
3) When you have a knight + scryb rotating around, you are often already winning and don't need the combo.

It can be a nice sudden-thing for a certain meta that generally can't deal with the token, but I'd play a 2-color version then.

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These are all very valid points. I have been running into recurring problems with colored mana and have been cutting a Wasteland as a result, but perhaps going for a more solid manabase is a better course of action. Thanks!

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Originally Posted by NEELEY

Been playing Maverick again, I'm currently in a league with a darker version with 3 bobs 2 Liliana 2 gsz 2 kotr 2 tracker. I beat bug delver, 4 color control and dark depths. I loss to Miracles. Game 3 I wasted his turn 1 tundra and struggled to get pass 2 lands that game, blind counterbalance on turn 3 hit my confidant unfortunately or I easliy would of taken the game over since he only had island and volcanic. Tireless tracker has been a great threat and took over quite a few games. I'm liking the number at 2.

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The number really depends on your build. I will probably never again play Maverick without Trackers :p Currently I'm running 3.

Although, from your explanation (Liliana, Bob) your deck seems to be closer to Abzan Rock than to Maverick. Maverick doesn't run much removal mainboard.

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Originally Posted by beardstorm

These are all very valid points. I have been running into recurring problems with colored mana and have been cutting a Wasteland as a result, but perhaps going for a more solid manabase is a better course of action. Thanks!

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Glad to help! I personally like solid manabase so much that don't run any black spells mainboard, which helps a lot while you're figuring out who are you playing against, and allows to fetch basics in the first turns and not get hurt much by that.

Also, what do you guys think about playing a one-of bomb such as Sigarda, Host of Herons? Any other fatties you prefer nowadays, like Thrun or Titania, Protector of Argoth? Has anyone tried playing Atraxa, Praetors' Voice?

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Originally Posted by beardstorm

Also, what do you guys think about playing a one-of bomb such as Sigarda, Host of Herons? Any other fatties you prefer nowadays, like Thrun or Titania, Protector of Argoth? Has anyone tried playing Atraxa, Praetors' Voice?

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The issue with Maverick is much more often is not being fast enough, rather than not having enough resources to finish the game. If I had a slot and needed more fuel, I'd rather squeeze in another Tireless Tracker than any of the abovementioned ones :p

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Originally Posted by aspsnake

The number really depends on your build. I will probably never again play Maverick without Trackers :p Currently I'm running 3.

Although, from your explanation (Liliana, Bob) your deck seems to be closer to Abzan Rock than to Maverick. Maverick doesn't run much removal mainboard.

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No it's def Maverick, just trying to add cards to be better vs miracles mainly.

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Originally Posted by NEELEY

No it's def Maverick, just trying to add cards to be better vs miracles mainly.

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Liliana is good with discard and lots of removal, however, all those don't go that well together with Mother of Runes and Thalia. If Miracles is your major concern, consider:

1) 2x mainboard Sylvan Library, those are house against them
2) Garruk+Gideon in sb and something to deal with their Jace: Pithing Needles and/or Council's Judgement
3) after sideboard, don't leave in creatures that don't win the game on their own, except for the Prelate/Teeg+Mother lock; try to have nearly every card winning when unanswered or a direct threat to their strategy.
4) or, alternatively, switching to Abzan Rock. Recently, there has been a very greedy list (check mtgtop8) with 3x Hymn, 3x Bobs, 3x Trackers, 2x Sylvans, 4 Lilianas and Garruk mainboard. No way you can lose to Miracles with smth like that (but fast decks like burn is an autoloss :p)

Regarding beating Miracles, this question pops up here regularly. Miracles has at times been one of the most popular decks in my local meta so I've been trying to figure out ways to beat them for the last two and a half years or so. Not playing too much Maverick during the last few months but thought I'd comment. The Rock was btw very strong vs them when I played it. In Maverick I've tried Bitterblossoms; Lightning Greaves; Trackers plus Leovolds; and Garruk plus Elspeth and nothing gave strong results in my (limited) playing. I was thinking of putting two Nissa, Vital Force in the sideboard, an approach I think has been tried by Elves too.

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Originally Posted by beardstorm

These are all very valid points. I have been running into recurring problems with colored mana and have been cutting a Wasteland as a result, but perhaps going for a more solid manabase is a better course of action. Thanks!

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I have run the Depths Combo in my maverick list for the past year and a half with favorable results. There are many matchups that I think go from 50/50 to favored because of the combo. I often find both elves, shardless, and True-Name decks 50/50 at worse and favored at best because of the options the combo provides--but therein lies the rub of the matter.

The Dark Depths combo has only two reasons for being in Maverick; evasion and blocking.

Maverick, unlike Death and Taxes, is often lacking when it comes to evasion. This is because it favors GSZ targets + KotR instead of Flickerwhisps + Serra Avengers for its beaters. As such, during board stalls, Dark Depths allows you a way to break parity using Knight of the Reliquary.

The other reason for Dark Depths is when you are put in a losing position, hence my comment on blocking.

Imagine this board state--you have zero creatures in play and you topdeck a Green Sun's Zenith, what do you search for to maximize the Gaea's Cradle you have in play? The answer jack and shit. Gaea's Cradle is great when you have a bunch of dudes out, but when you're in a bad position not so much. Resolving a KotR when your board is empty can often be the move that stabilizes you from dying--but its often not good enough on its own to 180 the game, especially if your opponent already has a board out. However, if you have the Dark Depths combo, it simply takes two untap steps to get you from being forced to block with Knight in order to live into winning with a 20/20 token.

My kinship with the combo primarily comes from the 2nd game state. When I already have several creatures in play, I don't really care about having Gaea's cradle turning my winning position into a win-more position. I do, however, like having Knight plus the combo be able to transform bad positions into winning positions.

The drawbacks to Dark Depths is heavy. My list only runs black cards in my sideboard and often it doesn't matter if the black cards are good--I can't side in too many of them in wasteland centered matchups. The deck space is also atrocious. I don't run decays, sylvan library, or even cool zenith targets like Tireless Tracker because I only have room for the barest of bare bones maverick cards and have recently starting running 61 cards in my maindeck to fit everything.

I would not have this problem had I decided against running the Dark Depths package. The real question you should ask is--how many win more cards do you like running in Maverick?