[Deck] Goblins

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Originally Posted by cooljets

Nice update Gobolord. My only suggestion would be to add a line about Kiki-Jiki in the WInstigator build.

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That's something I have been thinking about today. Why is, in Winstigator builds, Kiki-Jiki a better choice than Krenko and Siege-Gang Commander. I know that I don't want Krenko and I know that SGC is not what I'm looking for either, but I can't explain why Kiki-Jiki is the right choice here. What's your oppinion on that?

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Also: Tournament report featuring
http://magiccards.info/scans/en/vma/254.jpg

The list:

MANA (23)
3 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
5 Fetchlands
2 Badlands
5 Mountain
1 Snow-Covered Mountain
3 Chrome Mox

CORE (16)
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader

OTHERS (15)
4 Tarfire
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Chieftain
3 Warren Instigator
1 Stingscourger
1 Warren Weiridng
2 Tuktuk Scrapper
2 Grenzo, Dungeon Warden

Sideboard (15)
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Earwig Squad
3 Perish
2 Dismember
2 Mindbreak Trap

Changes to my last list were:
-2 Warchief, -1 Warren Instigator
+2 Grenzo, + 1 Mountain


Round 1: Shardless BUG ft. Tombstalker
I win a very long an very close Game 1. Grenzo was absolutely crappy, he fed Goyfs and Deathrite Shamans. I wanted to board out both copies, but felt like he deserved another chance.

Game 2 I kept 2 lands, 2 Vials, Matron, Chieftain, Ringleader. This felt like a safe thing to do since I figured out he had played 0 discard spells in game 1. The hand was good in lategame and wouldn't even lose to Abrupt Decay. My opponent played Null Rod on turn 2 and I was never able to get into the game.

Game 3 I decided to bring in one of my Tuktuk Scrappers again, that I had boarded out after G1. So Grenzo had to go. At the beginning thing went really good, only my Ringleaders were not in shape today: 2 Ringleaders were put into play and all I got was 1 Stingscourger (and 7 blanks). Tough luck, I had imprinted my Warren Weirding into Chrome Mox earlier, so Tombstalker was too tall for me to handle after he cast him for ther second time. At some point we were in topdeck mode and my opponent Brainstormed into Shardless Agent + Tarmogoyf.

0-1

Round 2: Mono B Pox Ctrl
Game 1 Tuktuk Scrapper broke a lock of Crucible of Worlds + Mishra's Factory + Wasteland + Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, by Vial-Flashing into play, destroying Crucible and blocking Mishra.

Game 2 I kept the following opening hand: 3 Piledrivers, 2 Chieftain, Chrome Mox, Tarfire, Mountain. My opponent started with Dark Ritual, Inquisition of Kozilek (picking my Chrome Mox) and Hymn to Tourach. Turn 2 he destroyed my only land with Sinkhole or Smallpox, I'm not sure. I scoop.

Game 3 I open with VIal and after he completely wipes my hand and board we are both in topdeck mode. Goblins are better at topdecking than most decks.

1-1

Round 3: Junk (BGw)
Game 1 is impossible to win for me. T1: Thoughtseize at Grenzo. T2: Tarmogoyf. Turn 3: Abrupt Decay @ Vial. Turn 4 Hymn to Tourach and 2 Deathrite Shaman. I didn't want to keep Grenz in my deck against someone with Goyfs and DRS, but still give him a try, so only 1 copy goes to the SB.

Game 2 is taking forever. GRenzo gets 'online', but only feeds Tarmogoyf. At one point I had to hold back a Ringleader to use Grenzo's ability (otherwise that poor guy would have been a 2/2 creature without any abilty. Some turns later he has Scavenging Ooze and Deathrite Shaman, which are able to eat creatures revealed with Grenzo, even before they hit the battlefield. However I manage to win at some point. And board out the 2nd Grenzo as well.

Game 3 my opponent mulls to 4, my opening 6 were: Mountain, Chrome Mox, Tarfire, Warren Instigator, Goblin Ringleader, Goblin Rinngleader. My opponent plays a fetchland and passes. I play Chrome Mox (imprinting Matron), Mountain, and WInstigator. My opponent play s Hymn to Tourarch, hitting Ringleader and Tarfire. I draw another Ringleader and attack. First strike trigger --> RIngleader: 0 Goblins. 2nd strike trigger --> Ringleader: 1 Goblin (Ringleader). My opponent stabilizes the board with Tarmogoyf, Deasthrite Shamane, Scavenging Ooze and Liliana. Needless to say that he won that game, which was a very frustrating experience.

1-2

Round 4: MUD
Game 1 he takes mulligan to 5 which happened to be: Ancient Tomb, Chalice of the Void, Trinisphere, Loadstone Golem and Glimmerpost. SInce he went first, my beatiful opening hand with Vial, LAckey, Chrome Mox and other stuff was pretty much useless. It seems like I'm stabilizing, but Grenzo let me down again, milling my deck, without actually having impact on the game. I lose 20 minutes later. Both Grenzos are boarded out in favor of Dismember. At that point I am almost done with that card.

Game 2&3 I land my Vial early and he gets overrun quickly.

2-2

Round 5: Nic Fit
Yay, finally a matchup where I could see Grenzo's full potential. At some point in the game (after my board was wiped by Pernicious Deed) I had only Grenzo, Tuktuk Scrapper and Cavern of Souls in hand. Because 2 Veteran Explorer fell prey to Perniscious Deed too we could search for 4 basiclands. I had only 3 left, played Caverns and Grenzo hit the field as a 4/4 creature (I had 8 lands in total at that point). Oh yeah baby, time to get this party started. Unfortunately Grenzo had no meaningful impact beyond his 4/4 body, since all he revealed was lands and Lackeys and Tarfires and another Grenzo. I lost the game to a lock-combination of Sun Titan + Pernicious Deed. Okay, that's it. My opponent managed to put Grenzo in the BEST POSSIBLE SITUATION (8 lands, already a 4/4 body, 0 meaningful cards in hands) and he still did absolutely nothing to win me the game. I boarded out both copies in favor of Earwig Squad.

Game 2&3 Piledriver, WInstigator and Chieftain win me the game.


Conclusion
* I added another land to the deck, which was absolutely the right choice. For the upcoming event I will stick to 20 lands + 3 Chrome Moxen
* Grenzo is such a bad card. I mean, really. Read the report please. This is not made up and I really tried to give him a chance (again and again). He's not just underwhelming, he is actually bad for the deck. This card is not playable at all.
* my changes will be -2 Grenzo, +1 Winstigator and +1 Kiki-Jiki. Also I'm looking to cut Mindbreak Traps, but I don't know yet what to replace them with. Suggestions are welcome.

Well, I never claimed that Grenzo is very good in this deck and i said he is not what this deck needs immediately when he got printed. I think though that you've been incredibly unlucky with him (never revealed matrons or ringleaders or any decent creature) as well that a deck with grenzo should be built , if possible, in order to maximize its ability. For example, some gempalms in favor of tarfires... but then we all know that tarfire is essential in the actual metagame, and putting a 2/1 on the battlefield is not that exciting, so probably it isn't worth.

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Originally Posted by Gobolord

Some turns later he has Scavenging Ooze and Deathrite Shaman, which are able to eat creatures revealed with Grenzo, even before they hit the battlefield.

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Can they do that? I supposed grenzo was blanked by rest in peace, but i didn't think they can exile your creatures before they enter the battlefield.

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Originally Posted by Gobolord

Why is, in Winstigator builds, Kiki-Jiki a better choice than Krenko and Siege-Gang Commander. I know that I don't want Krenko and I know that SGC is not what I'm looking for either, but I can't explain why Kiki-Jiki is the right choice here. What's your oppinion on that?

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Well , i think the obvious reason is cheating in with instigator matron into kiki-jiki, then start copying matron . I suppose cheating in matron into siege-gang should usually be enough to win the game, but the card advantage created by kiki-jiki is even better. (i know the question was directed to cooljets but I just wanted to share my view)

When i get sober will try to find our conversation explaining why kiki is better in the gater build.
Also, leecop is right. No one can respond while Grenzo abilitie is on the stack, so fuck ooze and deathrite.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

That's something I have been thinking about today. Why is, in Winstigator builds, Kiki-Jiki a better choice than Krenko and Siege-Gang Commander. I know that I don't want Krenko and I know that SGC is not what I'm looking for either, but I can't explain why Kiki-Jiki is the right choice here. What's your oppinion on that?

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The reason Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker is so powerful in the Warren Instigator builds is simply his ability to be in play with a relevant creature with one hit. Warren Instigator into Goblin Matron bringing Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker to the board puts a strong amount of pressure on any opponent, even combo as you can set up hasty Goblin Piledriver(s) the following turn. I would argue this line is simply just stronger than Goblin Ringleader into whatever he pulls, and that is a very powerful line in itself. He just gives the deck that much more power without any real drawback. Sure Siege-Gang will scare the opponent, but it's all gone in a board wipe, with the other route you still have pressure in hand AND the field. Beyond all that copying Goblin Chieftain, the preferred haste lord in Warren Instigator builds, is simply stronger than copying Goblin Warchief. AKA: A 4 mana Siege-Gang Commander is more valuable to the deck that runs Goblin Warchief than two 3/3's is to the deck that runs Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker as the Warren Instigator builds are simply so aggressive.

There's a new Goblin revealed:

1R
Goblin Kaboomist
Creature - Goblin Warrior
1/2

At the beginning of your upkeep, put a colorless artifact token named Land Mine onto the battlefield with "R, sacrifice this artifact: This artifact deals 2 damage to target attacking creature without flying." Then flip a coin. If you lose the flip, Goblin Kaboomist deals 2 damage to itself.

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I personally think it has some potential, even though it's a bit risky and mostly defensive. I do not know if it is too colour-heavy, but it's an interesting card in the least.

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Originally Posted by Yio

There's a new Goblin revealed:

1R
Goblin Kaboomist
Creature - Goblin Warrior
1/2

At the beginning of your upkeep, put a colorless artifact token named Land Mine onto the battlefield with "R, sacrifice this artifact: This artifact deals 2 damage to target attacking creature without flying." Then flip a coin. If you lose the flip, Goblin Kaboomist deals 2 damage to itself.

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I personally think it has some potential, even though it's a bit risky and mostly defensive. I do not know if it is too colour-heavy, but it's an interesting card in the least.

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http://media.wizards.com/images/magi...42um78zriv.png

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Originally Posted by Sandro95

http://media.wizards.com/images/magi...42um78zriv.png

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This card makes me happy for some reason. I don't see it taking over our 2 drop spots, but every upkeep makes me happy.

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Originally Posted by Sandro95

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Great flavor! Not Legacy viable.

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Originally Posted by jrw1985

great flavor! Not legacy viable.

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i want to believe!

Does rest in peace shut off Grenzo ? Ok, the card will be exiled when hit the graveyard, but then does it remain exiled or is put into the battlefield from exile ??

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Originally Posted by LeoCop 90

Does rest in peace shut off Grenzo ? Ok, the card will be exiled when hit the graveyard, but then does it remain exiled or is put into the battlefield from exile ??

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Grenzo, Dungeon Warden does not work under Rest in Peace.

2: Put the bottom card of your library into your graveyard. If it's a creature card with power less than or equal to Grenzo's power, put it onto the battlefield.

Rest in Peace kicks in as a state based action to replace the movement from grave to exile.

400.7. An object that moves from one zone to another becomes a new object with no memory of, or relation to, its previous existence.

Since it is a new object it cannot be found by Grenzo, Dungeon Warden ability and it "fizzles."


Edit: Keep reading, I was proven wrong.

Q: Grenzo, Dungeon Warden turns over a Goblin, but my opponent has Rest in Peace. Do I get my Goblin from exile?

A: You do! The ability doesn't specify that it checks in or returns from a graveyard, so it will check in the first zone the card moves to, if it moves to a public zone, and then move it to the battlefield from that zone. Your little Goblin will make a journey from your library to exile to the battlefield to your opponent's face in record time.

Source

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Originally Posted by Olaf Forkbeard

Grenzo, Dungeon Warden does not work under Rest in Peace.

2: Put the bottom card of your library into your graveyard. If it's a creature card with power less than or equal to Grenzo's power, put it onto the battlefield.

Rest in Peace kicks in as a state based action to replace the movement from grave to exile.

400.7. An object that moves from one zone to another becomes a new object with no memory of, or relation to, its previous existence.

Since it is a new object it cannot be found by Grenzo, Dungeon Warden ability and it "fizzles."

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I've read that since Grenzo's ability doesn't actually specify that the creature has to be in the graveyard, once it sees that the (now exiled) creature has less than or equal power it'll bring it back to the battlefield.

edit: beaten to it.

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Originally Posted by Tyrio

I've read that since Grenzo's ability doesn't actually specify that the creature has to be in the graveyard, once it sees that the (now exiled) creature has less than or equal power it'll bring it back to the battlefield.

edit: beaten to it.

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It seems I was wrong. I did read the following but for some reason thought it didn't apply.

400.7g A resolving spell or activated ability can perform actions on an object that moved from one zone to another while that spell was being cast or that ability was being activated, if that object moved to a public zone.


Neat.

Suddenly Goblins has the Most graveyard-hate resistant reanimate ability. Weird.

Suddenly Goblins has the Most graveyard-hate resistant reanimate ability. Weird.

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Originally Posted by jrw1985

Suddenly Goblins has the Most graveyard-hate resistant reanimate ability. Weird.

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Still like you said earlier if they're boarding R.I.P. against goblins... You're in good shape.

I looked at gobolord's testing of the bearded green one, It didn't look very good.

Did 2-2 today with my last list basically. Change the lands to get a TSH md and tool out Therapies for 2 MB trap, tuktuk and Wort.
Against snt got t2d, then Chalice t2 stopped his cantrips, then killed him t3 with Gator +matron (getting kiki) +pilly.

Lost g1 against canadian to stifle waste fow double delver bolt. G2 killed 2 goyfs a delver and 2 geese, but did not get past 3 lands and could not handle the 3rd goyf. Won a game for fun later by connecting gator into Wort with a Weirdings. He had tumble but Wort survives.

Won g1 against solidarity by killing him t3. Won g2 because he tried to combo off in his turn... won and lost a game for fun. Chalice and Squad rox.

Lost g1 to elves in a mull to 4. Won g2 after he decayed Shooter and Chalice, then cast Prog with another dude. Perish was good. G3 i kept a hand with Gator but no hate. Should never do that. Lost.

The RB version is pretty awesome and ill push it for some more time.
Still no time to test Grenzo, but van probably trust gobbolords testing. Still, will do it someday.


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Seems that most of the newer goblins are designed for the casual player not the competitive. As a fan of the tribe its kind of infuriating wizards cant produce a decent, playable goblin. We really need a power boost to keep this deck tier 1/2 competitive. Im interested in hearing from others what the realistic/ideal goblin would look like.

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Originally Posted by jimmythegreek

Seems that most of the newer goblins are designed for the casual player not the competitive. As a fan of the tribe its kind of infuriating wizards cant produce a decent, playable goblin. We really need a power boost to keep this deck tier 1/2 competitive. Im interested in hearing from others what the realistic/ideal goblin would look like.

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I totally agree and i am a bit pissed that things like goblin kaboomist / goblin diplomats are being printed again and again. I mean, they are funny cards and i am happy they exist because goblins are stupid creatures and i love them for this, but when merfolks are now playing true name nemesis and elves deathrite shaman + the new reclamation sage (we are hoping for a shatter goblin since a lot of time), i would love to see a new overpowered goblin. I'm not willing to start the discussion about what would be ideal because we talked about it several times and speaking of non existent cards doesn't contribute to this thread development.