Git dem Grave Beats.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
My brew with 4x Spell Queller and 4x Spellstutter Sprite just went 3-0-1 tonight! My last three outings being a total of 9-1-1!
We are truly in an age of Jank!
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Git dem Grave Beats.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
My brew with 4x Spell Queller and 4x Spellstutter Sprite just went 3-0-1 tonight! My last three outings being a total of 9-1-1!
We are truly in an age of Jank!
What did you replace Grim Flayer with?
Not sure if this is the correct place for this, but it's the closest deck I can think of that would do this (and possibly has ALREADY tried to do this.) To qualify my inquiry, what's on my mind is the absence of counter/top (just like with everyone else) and the idea that Dark Confident and a low cmc curve could really do some damage in the metagame. Delver has already established itself as a tier-1 strategy (mostly grixis) which plays on the same axis: efficient cards with exceptionally high power levels. Death and Taxes is also still doing very well, which brings back an old card option: Mother of Runes. With the format (surprisingly) fair right now I wanted to move towards a list that can break through the delver decks but still be low-to-the-ground with Dark Confidant. I kind-of think (opinion) that Nic-Fit is a better place to go bigger to power through the tempo decks. I don't think this list belongs in the Deadguy thread (no SFM/equips.)
This is what I'm testing:
Creatures - 20
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Mother of Runes
4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Tidehollow Sculler
Disruption/Removal - 17
3x Thoughtseize
2x Cabal Therapy
4x Sinkhole
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Vindicate
Card Selection/Advantage -2
2x Sylvan Library
Lands - 21
4x Wasteland
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Windswept Heath
1x Marsh Flats
2x Scrubland
1x Savannah
1x Bayou
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2x Swamp
1x Plains
1x Forest
1x Karakas
Sideboard (rough)
2x Pithing Needle
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Containment Priest
1x Life from the Loam
1x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Duress
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Choke
There aren't any new cards in here, so I know that some mix of this has already been tried. Other cards on my mind are Knight of the Reliquary, Hymn to Tourach, Gideon of the Trials, Blessed Alliance (sideboard), Back to Nature (sideboard), Liliana of the Veil (not sure if it can be supported maindeck, sideboard maybe), Fatal Push (I still feel its inferior to StP in decks that have access to white, maybe I'm wrong.) I just want to disrupt their resources and then force a big Goyf through via MoM. MoM also protects Sculler, making it true card advantage, and Dark Confidant so I can get ahead on cards while setting opponent's back.
TL;DR - Looking for feedback on the list above.
I think if you can cast Sinkhole, you can cast Liliana of the Veil.
Agreed, I know the mana works. I just don't know if Liliana is correct in the list at all; is she too good to *not* play, do I drop sinkhole (the only flex spots) to work her in, is she a sideboard card?
Any deck that could possibly run Liliana should run her. I have a soft spot for sinkhole but it's not always a card you want to see all the time. It's a bad topdeck in the late game and against some decks, it does nothing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
Anyways, I think you should make room for at least 3 Liliana's in your list.
She's good, but this is an exaggeration by a lot. Blue decks with a lot of counters or instant-speed reactions (Snapcaster) and BSK decks can have issues ticking her up. She's also a 3-mana removal spell for your opp's worst creature a non-trivial amount of the time. With Grixis as a big part of the metagame she can end up not killing anything of note. Her uptick is also pretty bad against Flash creatures in general and even in Junk I occasionally felt the tension of "do I tick up or do I keep my Plow/Decay" in which case normally you leave her for a turn so you can keep the board locked down since you'll probably draw something you don't want anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFrowny_
I was addicted to using liliana until she spiked; While I miss my copies sometimes she was a good habit to break since she's often not enough against combo (a funeral charm before they kill you) and not always that good against fair decks (a sorcery edict before she dies to damage.)
Lily does manage to be pretty cold to some decks still as well, Lands (which is a reasonable meta chunk), Storm (I used to think she was good, but her slowness and their grave-reliance makes her mediocre), Topless Miracles (putting yourself in topdeck mode isn't great, and their wincons bypass her), Dredge, D&T (you may kill yourself if they run the double-lord, can be turned into CDA with Revoker, etc.)
I have seen her lock out many opponents and she's certainly still "2nd best walker" or so, but I do think her heyday ended quite some time back. I *did* use her in every black deck for 3-4 years, but I think you can honestly make your mana better, cut a land, and just run Brutality instead. Better against combo a lot of the time, good tempo potentially, fixes broken hands alright, kills most legacy problems. I've just seen her die too many times to Clique, Snap, etc, and grind hands down to no avail many times.
I get where you are coming from, for sure. Sinkhole is sometimes dead, agreed. My thinking was that I am trying to parallel Death and Taxes but have a faster clock and a different axis of disruption (discard, uncounterable removal with Decay.) Sinkhole = Rishadan Port (I know Port is a land technically, but D&T also has to use Vial so the deck slots are the same and Port is more of a 'spell' than a land.) That's my thinking anyways, could be just bad in practice.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFrowny_
I have some experience playing Junk/Rock in the past and Liliana was always an auto-include. With Dark Confidant drawing extra cards I can see her being very good in combination (and I'm even playing MoM to protect the Bobs.) With Sinkhole/Tarmogoyf I'm definitely slanting towards tempo; with Liliana I would be going more towards mid-range. I think other lists in this thread do a MUCH better job at playing a mid-range deck (SFM, Liliana, Grim Flayer, some people are even using Siege Rhino IIRC.) That's the tension, but again, in practice it might be correct to play her simply because she's better than anything else that could go in there. Thanks for the food-for-thought!
How do you feel about 2-3 Liliana in the sideboard for grindy matchups? Her abilities naturally push towards a longer game.Quote:
Originally Posted by tescrin
I could see you going either way on the Sinkholes or the Lilianas. lily in the main is *probably* better just because she can open the door for your Goyf, but I think Brutality can often do the same for less mana and less B's, and can be a tempo play while still dropping cards from Bob.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
My main thing is he said "she should be run in any deck that has B in it" basically, and I feel my choice to sell her was good, via how she'd play against the decks I'm running, both in the deck or across the board from me. Brutality gets the dude you want, and Lily often gets a dude; expecting to grind your way out of problems Her play against Leovold decks is also bad.
IMO, run Brutality.
Good thoughts, much appreciated.Quote:
Originally Posted by tescrin
The real question is which one gives me the most power in the metagame (and I like your reasoning for Brutality, its very solid.) Sinkhole is much more situational than either Brutality or Liliana (which will both do SOMETHING relevant, regardless of game state.) Sinkhole is really only good early to strain mana (basically a time walk) and to create a window. It could also literally do nothing productive other than hit an opponent's 6th land on turn 9.
Then again most legacy decks can play around Wasteland, but its hard to struggle through both wasteland and sinkhole. Dark Depths is rising in popularity, which makes Sinkhole at least a smidge better than otherwise. I guess I just want to live the dream and resolve a t1 Deathrite into a turn 2 Sinkhole + Wasteland lol. I may be blinded by wanting synergy when this style of deck really wants to rely on utility/card power level.
Vindicate is also a thing; hard to say. Sinkhole is definitely pretty funny against Enchantress and whatnot haha (which I've found a lot more of on MTGO as I explore that meta.)
That all said, Delvers with Sinkhole in them do well on occasion; and it can definitely be pretty funny to Sinkhole a swamp against ANT who think they're immune :P. I would just sit with a list in front of you and see what it's good against and what it's bad against.
Bad:
* Everything that runs Daze
* D&T?
* opposing DRS decks?
Good:
* S&T decks
* Reanimator?
* Enchantress
* Aluren/Food Chain? (they fetch basics for a reason I imagine)
* ANT?
* Decks that potentially tell you they have a weak hand/deck to LD by fetching a basic first
then judge that list as it's fleshed out against your meta game and how your deck pairs against things.
EDIT: Thinking on it for another 5 seconds, I am curious why you wouldn't run a Sinkhole BUG Delver in this case rather than straight GB. You're looking for a tempo plan, want to run Sinkhole and Goyf; so you might consider that.
Omg, activity in the Rock thread!
I can't contribute to the current discussion as I am still brewing GB Rock with Depths but I wish everyone the best of luck!
I think in non-blue fair Bx decks Liliana should be at least a 2 of. I play more Jund than Rock, but I always have 3 or 4 Liliana in my lists. If you have an upticking Liliana on the field and start Wastelanding your opponent, you generally win the game.
Nice rundown, and I really appreciate the practical approach (good/bad matchups rather than magical Christmas land.) EDIT: I am using 1x Vindicate.Quote:
Originally Posted by tescrin
Simple answer: card availability! I have the gwb mana-base/cards. I do not have blue duals/forces. I *could* try the deck with shocklands and not forces, but that just seems horrible to me lol.
My plan is to use Mom to protect threats, similar to bug delver with daze/fow. From there I play threats that are really powerful/fast (Sculler/DRS/Bob/Goyf.) Discard + Mom + Mana disruption + beats. The discard deals with things I can't kill, the mana disruption keeps them off bigger spells, and I can reasonably close the game quickly with Goofys. Alternatively I will draw extra cards from Bob, more removal, more wastelands, more sinkholes, and grind out that way.
@lavafrogg: I have tried GB Rock w/depths but I only have one Depths. The deck seems cool, but only one copy in my situation seems bad, bad enough to table the possibility until I have more copies.
I think I will try to play 2-3 in my sideboard for now, boarding them in against decks where Sinkhole is bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by hovercraft
Lands(25)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
3 Bayou
3 Dark Depths
1 Forest
1 Cabal Pit
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Swamp
2 Thespian's Stage
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
Creatures(12)
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tireless Tracker
Engine(7)
3 Lilliana of the Veil
1 Life from the Loam
3 Sylvan Library
Spells(16)
4 Thoughtsieze
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Raven's Crime
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Entomb
Sideboard(15)
1 Boseiju2, Who Shelters All
2 Tsunami
3 Lost Legacy
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Toxic Deluge
3 Fatal Push
2 Krosan Grip
This is what I am currently trying, I go back and forth between an entomb package and a crop rotation package...
You definitely have some number of Rotation in there, probably 2. You never want 3 Entomb I don't think (despite that it could get you a full combo), so I think running 3 Entomb would make sense. Swap in 1 Rotation there.Quote:
Originally Posted by lavafrogg
I think I'd say the same about Thoughtseize #4. Getting 3 feels terrible, so going to 3 seems good. Swap in a second Rotation there.
Since Library doesn't stack, I'd say get Loam#2 there.
Drop 1 Decay for Darkblast I think (Entomb!), maybe the pharoah (or both!)
Have you tried running some Hexmages too? Still a creature if you need aggro plan but increases your likelihood of comboing. I have played a lot of BG Depths and Junk Depths and once I put Hexmages in they never came back out. Living Wish package can be great in a shell like this too for combo pieces and utility lands/creatures.Quote:
Originally Posted by lavafrogg
When I ran my version with only 1 Depths I played 4x Crop Rotation and 4x Vampire Hexmage. Both are incredible utility cards that are valuable even if you get Depths extracted. Entomb is great for loam shenanigans (ravens crime, getting back depths post-wasteland) but it actually adds a step to the combo and leaves you vulnerable to Deathrite Shaman/grave hate. Crop Rotation is an instant speed way to create a Marit Lage.
For reference, this was my first version:
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Dark Confidant
4x Vampire Hexmage
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn to Tourach
3x Abrupt Decay
4x Crop Rotation
3x Liliana of the Veil
2x Life from the Loam
2x Sylvan Library
4x Wasteland
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Windswept Heath
1x Bayou
4x Urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
2x Swamp
2x Forest
1x Dark Depths
1x Thespian's Stage
Sideboard had some singleton lands (Karakas, Maze of Ith, Bojuka Bog, Glacial Chasm) which I loved. The deck worked ok; it was a combo deck but could also grind really well.
If I had everything I needed to build it the way I wanted, this is what I would do:
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Vampire Hexmage
1x Eternal Witness
3x Thoughtseize
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Liliana of the Veil
3x Abrupt Decay
3x Fatal Push
2x Sylvan Library
1x Life from the Loam
4x Crop Rotation
4x Dark Depths
1x Thespian's Stage
3x Bayou
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2x Swamp
2x Forest
3x Wasteland
1x Volrath's Stronghold
The mana would change because I'd have access to more Bayous and Dark Depths taking up more slots. Volrath's Stronghold lets your 9 dudes keep coming back (also wanted to try it with Shriekmaws, but its already janky, I didn't want to go over the deep end...) The plan was to just shred their hand of answers on-curve (thoughtseize>hymn>liliana) and then play a grinding Liliana game until I can draw into the combo. Hexmage was surprisingly good in combat (a lot of people forget about first strike) and I had zero fear of JtMS. Sideboard would still have the singleton lands.
Sometimes you would just have the nuts: turn 1 urborg/discard to clear the way, turn 2 Depths/Hexmage, turn 3 kill. Realistically it would be a few turns later, but once folks started playing around Dark Depths it lets your normally good cards become better. Hexmage/DRS become real win conditions if they let them go unchecked. You just play a normal Rock game plan of good-stuff disruption until you pry open your window to 20/20 them. I would sideboard a set of Dark Confidant and some extra loams for sure, another way to just out-value anything fair.