Miracle Control

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Originally Posted by TheArchitect

I went 4-0-2 (IDs) at a local 1k with the list I posted earlier. I was seeded 1st but we just split and enjoyed the rest of the nice day. My matchups were the mirror, GB pox, Mono-Red Sneak Attack and UR Delver. The list felt solid.

My match in the mirror reminding me of some good advice to reiterate: as others have said before, counterbalance is the most important card in the mirror. A lot of people thing top is and will force of will over it. This is not worth it, you need to save your FoW for the fight over CB. In both the games that I won against him, he fought over top and then eventually lost to the CB I resolved.

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Congrats! If that was the Jupiter event, I split with you, going 4-1-1 (ID) with a very similar list... I think the only MD differences were -1 Karakas, -1 Clique, +1 Arid Mesa, +1 FoW.

My SB was:
2 Containment Priest
2 Meddling Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Council's Judgment
1 EE
1 Wear // Tear
1 Counterspell
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Flusterstorm
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Matches were:

Maverick 2-0
Esper Thopters 2-0
Mirror 0-2
Infect 2-1
Elves 2-0
ID
Split

The only real play of note that I remember is when I managed to live the Wear // Tear dream, killing both my opponent's Thopter Foundry AND Counterbalance. Just hitting one of them at that juncture in the game would have likely forced a game 3.

I suppose I also managed to Counterbalance Become Immense out of Infect by revealing Terminus, which was unexpected.

My only losses in my last two events have been to the Mirror and Omnitell... I feel like despite knowing CB is the key in the mirror, as of yet, I haven't been able to win that fight.

How important are those Spell Pierces in the board for this?

Also I think maybe I made some bad mulligan decisions... I kept a hand that was something like Land, Land, Land, CB, CB, Jace, Snapcaster, assuming I will for sure be able to land CB with two of them. Unfortunately with no cantrips or tops, me having CB in play was mostly irrelevant.

Spell pierce is def not where you want to be in the post board mirror. With your board I'm interested in bringing in

+2 clique
+3 blasts
+1 we
+1 cj
+1 cs
+1 fluster
+1 Elspeth

Taking out 4 terminus 2 entreat 4 swords

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Originally Posted by exallium

Spell pierce is def not where you want to be in the post board mirror. With your board I'm interested in bringing in

+2 clique
+3 blasts
+1 we
+1 cj
+1 cs
+1 fluster
+1 Elspeth

Taking out 4 terminus 2 entreat 4 swords

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Debatable, but I would consider keeping 1 Entreat in and taking 1 Plains out instead.

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Originally Posted by TheArchitect

I went 4-0-2 (IDs) at a local 1k with the list I posted earlier. I was seeded 1st but we just split and enjoyed the rest of the nice day. My matchups were the mirror, GB pox, Mono-Red Sneak Attack and UR Delver. The list felt solid.

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How has the 2 Vendilion Clique and Karakas package been working out for you? I don't think I would play Karakas in most metas, but I am considering main deck Cliques despite people arguing it not being so good. Do you still stand by what you said earlier that this is you "metagaming", or do you think there is some merit playing Vendilon Clique main even if you don't know the meta at a given tournament that well???

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Originally Posted by exallium

Spell pierce is def not where you want to be in the post board mirror. With your board I'm interested in bringing in

+2 clique
+3 blasts
+1 we
+1 cj
+1 cs
+1 fluster
+1 Elspeth

Taking out 4 terminus 2 entreat 4 swords

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I disagree. Pierce is one the best post board cards I get. It's definitely better than fluster in this matchup and considering that 8 of the 35 people at the tournament were on miracles it was one of the reasons I run it over fluster, and yes at Jupiter! Pierce let's you control the first few turns in a way fluster does not. You get to win any fights over CB, top or jace and get to land yours first more consistently with pierce. I also bring it in againt delver and GBx to fight all their scary stuff like hymns, library, null rod, stifle or lily. It also helps a lot vs cards like needle, defense grid, chalice, choke, sneak attack, in ways fluster storm cannot help. With hatebears and CB to lock out combo very effectively, relying on fluster as a semi-hard counter is not needed vs combo and really I just need to make I through the first few turns. Spell Pierce does that just fine.

My plan for SBing depends on my perception of my opponent and his/her plan post board. Is he copying joe or Philips plan? Is he doing something wierd with stoneforge or baneslayer post board? Always though, 2 plains, 1 entreat and 4 swords come out. I then take out some number or terminus or the last entreat depending on what my opponents plan is.

EDIT: as far as the MD cliques/Karakas go, I still think in the typical american meta they are good choice. Basically the only matchups I would rather have a snap, a dig and arid mesa in their 3 MD slots is vs RUG/grixis/UR delver, Esper stoneblade, and Burn. I don't see too many of those decks, and basically every other matchup the are good in game 1, and get even better post-board. The venser I would understand not wanting to play, but at least around here where 80% of people are playing GB, stoneforge, show and tell or miracles he is awesome. I am not 100% sure but I will probably be going to SCG Worcester and if I do, unless something shifts in the meta, my list will not change much.

EDIT: EDIT: After talking to Philip about it, we have had very different experiences with Karakas. Even without its interaciton with my own creatures, it being able to bounce my opponents, teegs, thalias, tasigurs, emmys, cliques, etc, has come up in game change ways more than it being a crappy non-basic plains has screwed me over. Also, in the mirror where clique is super important as a win con and way to pressure jace, being able to completely nullify their clique, while protecting yours is awesome.

Theres also a lot of subtle iterations that come up surprisingly often with karakas and clique/venser. On many occasions I have bounced clique to pitch to a key FoW, or brainstorm ontop of my deck to counterbalance a game changing spell. Also, being able to power through your lousy topdecks with clique+karakas or karakas+vesner+top is also nice. Granted these are much more fringe situations but they do come up every couple rounds.

Finals like that make me sad that SCG stopped covering Sunday Legacy.

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Originally Posted by TheArchitect

EDIT: as far as the MD cliques/Karakas go, I still think in the typical american meta they are good choice. Basically the only matchups I would rather have a snap, a dig and arid mesa in their 3 MD slots is vs RUG/grixis/UR delver, Esper stoneblade, and Burn. I don't see too many of those decks, and basically every other matchup the are good in game 1, and get even better post-board. The venser I would understand not wanting to play, but at least around here where 80% of people are playing GB, stoneforge, show and tell or miracles he is awesome. I am not 100% sure but I will probably be going to SCG Worcester and if I do, unless something shifts in the meta, my list will not change much.

EDIT: EDIT: After talking to Philip about it, we have had very different experiences with Karakas. Even without its interaciton with my own creatures, it being able to bounce my opponents, teegs, thalias, tasigurs, emmys, cliques, etc, has come up in game change ways more than it being a crappy non-basic plains has screwed me over. Also, in the mirror where clique is super important as a win con and way to pressure jace, being able to completely nullify their clique, while protecting yours is awesome.

Theres also a lot of subtle iterations that come up surprisingly often with karakas and clique/venser. On many occasions I have bounced clique to pitch to a key FoW, or brainstorm ontop of my deck to counterbalance a game changing spell. Also, being able to power through your lousy topdecks with clique+karakas or karakas+vesner+top is also nice. Granted these are much more fringe situations but they do come up every couple rounds.

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If the game has gotten to the point where you would need a Snapcaster or Clique beats to win the game, Clique does 10x better job than Snapcaster. Even without CB-T. Having Karakas in play and carrying out the Clique beats pretty much requires opponent having multiple removals, or a flyer. Clique pressures opponent's planeswalker much better than Snapcaster as well.

Yes, Karakas owns Sneak and Show. Another MU in which Karakas shines is Reanimator. As Lossett has mentioned, yes you can use Clique and Karakas to create a Miracle trigger-Termius if you don't have another non-land card (or simply value them higher than Clique for that board state).

Recently Dig has been outrageously rampant, I played against multiple different MUs in one day, some combo, some fair, all contain Dig. This is making MD Red Blast effect more attractive than ever. With 3 StP and 1 CJ, running one Blast MD should be fine, I hope.

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Originally Posted by twndomn

Yes, Karakas owns Sneak and Show. Another MU in which Karakas shines is Reanimator. As Lossett has mentioned, yes you can use Clique and Karakas to create a Miracle trigger-Termius if you don't have another non-land card (or simply value them higher than Clique for that board state).

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Just commenting on this, it's only OK versus Re-animator as they can just entomb something other than Griselbrand (most likely Inkwell Leviathan once they know what deck you're on) that can't be bounced back to their hand. That lets them save their counterspells for either your Top or Terminus.

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Originally Posted by twndomn

If the game has gotten to the point where you would need a Snapcaster or Clique beats to win the game, Clique does 10x better job than Snapcaster. Even without CB-T. Having Karakas in play and carrying out the Clique beats pretty much requires opponent having multiple removals, or a flyer. Clique pressures opponent's planeswalker much better than Snapcaster as well.

Yes, Karakas owns Sneak and Show. Another MU in which Karakas shines is Reanimator. As Lossett has mentioned, yes you can use Clique and Karakas to create a Miracle trigger-Termius if you don't have another non-land card (or simply value them higher than Clique for that board state).

Recently Dig has been outrageously rampant, I played against multiple different MUs in one day, some combo, some fair, all contain Dig. This is making MD Red Blast effect more attractive than ever. With 3 StP and 1 CJ, running one Blast MD should be fine, I hope.

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Yeah, Clique is the best card in the deck to not be directly part of the engine. Hard for people with 4x Ponder to find the room, though.

My original problem with maindeck REB was not it being dead (probably 95% of decks run blue?), but having to fetch Volcanic. But now these decks don't even run Wasteland, so I made the switch. Karakas getting Wastelanded is also a poor excuse, now.

Hi guys, I am new to Miracles (played Maverick and Death and Taxes for 2 years)

I have recently completed a Miracles deck (Reid Duke build with 23 lands, no creatures mainboard and no ponder)

But a lot of decklist I see include some number of ponder and Snapcaster Mage mainboard, even Venser, Shaper Savant.

Is Reid build out of flavor?
What's you opinion on his take on Miracles?

Thank you guys.

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Originally Posted by coricho

Hi guys, I am new to Miracles (played Maverick and Death and Taxes for 2 years)

I have recently completed a Miracles deck (Reid Duke build with 23 lands, no creatures mainboard and no ponder)

But a lot of decklist I see include some number of ponder and Snapcaster Mage mainboard, even Venser, Shaper Savant.

Is Reid build out of flavor?
What's you opinion on his take on Miracles?

Thank you guys.

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Reid is pretty much the only person to play that particular approach to the deck, and I am pretty sure the reason for that is because of the fact that he is Reid Duke. Unless you are also Reid Duke, I would recommend you play a more proven version of the deck. Philipp Schonegger's (Einherjer) 4 ponder list has the list with the most consistent results and is probably the easiest variation of the deck learn on. This is basically the stock 4 ponder list here: http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=16834&iddeck=126135

Hello everyone; I've been playing Miracles for a bit and have a slightly different list than what others are playing (The American vs European lists for instance). I do think ponder is extremely powerful for the deck, but like BBD I'm not that sold on Entreat especially to lean on so heavily. Similarly, I feel like a lot of the stock lists are way to linear. I also don't like MB blasts all that much. In light of these things, this is the list I've been running to good success locally:

Miracles:
4 Terminus
1 Entreat the Angels

Removal:
4 Swords to Plowshares

Win-Cons:
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek

Counters:
2 Counterspell
3 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will

Selection:
1 Cunning Wish
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder

Utility:
3 Snapcaster Mage

Lands:
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
2 Plains
5 Island
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Academy Ruins

Sideboard:
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Flusterstorm
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Path to Exile
2 Containment Priest
1 Wear // Tear
1 Rest in Peace
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Fire // Ice
1 Pithing Needle


Some explanations. Cunning Wish I feel is super powerful in the deck, as it can be effectively that blast if you absolutely need it, or you can go find answers to problem permanents in your SB, or if you just desperately need to find a piece of the myriad of your combos (CounterTop, Thopter, etc.). It essentially fills that flex spot in the deck and as a 1 of I think it is one of the better ways to utilize the slot. Now, I feel like Thopter Sword is probably your best win-con against a variety of decks especially the mirror as it is true inevitability that the deck otherwise lacks. You want 2 Foundries in case one gets exiled, but you only need the 1 Sword. You have ways to search up the combo pieces if you desperately needed to with Cunning Wish > E Tutor, and Academy Ruins gives you a lot of lines of play and let's you play more aggressively against opposing counters (for example playing T1 top on the draw or into counters, etc.). There's also wonky interactions with destroying your needle, getting it back and needling something else if that need arose. Just in general, I feel like I want a more inevitable win-condition in the deck other than Entreat or Jace as well as a source of life-gain that can be quite useful. I do still want 1 Entreat the Angels as it can be powerful in certain situations and forces your opponent to play in ways that are less than optimal, which gives you another dimension of attack. Between Jace, Thopter Combo, and Entreat you attack on 3 different angles which makes you more resilient imho. I've loved it for what it is worth.

Just an addendum here: 3 Snaps are super good, letting you buy back your wish target, being a way to pseudo-pressure combo decks, and acts as StP 5-7 if need be. I feel like he is better than V. Clique in the main, especially when we have a better win-con in Thopter Sword. Having more 2 CMC targets for CB is also nice, as is Wish being 3 for CB as well.

As for Karakas, I've gone back and forth with it (and always in the SB). It has match ups where it is super good, and others where it is 'meh'. In this list you really don't want to play it as you only have 2 Cliques in the SB for it, and you have other ways to interact with opposing Legendary creatures.

Anyways, thought I'd post this and see what others think or if they have any suggestions/critiques.

How is a two card combo that takes up four slots and a sideboard card more efficient and effective than just including another Entreat?

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Originally Posted by iamajellydonut

How is a two card combo that takes up four slots and a sideboard card more efficient and effective than just including another Entreat?

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1) It 'takes' up 3 slots, and you could say the same thing about the Legends build that utilize Karakas+Legend combo (2 card combo... that takes up 3-4+ slots). That's a poor argument. It provides the deck an inevitable way to win the game as well as attack on a different axis. It goes beyond this with other synergies as well.

2) The E. Tutor in the SB acts as a 2nd Needle, 2nd RIP, a way to find your CounterTop lock if you need it, etc. Wish is the flex spot that other Miracles players use for MD blasts and the like. I think it's much better for control decks, but YMMV.

3) Entreat is clunky, and you don't want to throw all your eggs in one basket. I do think that having your win-con be inevitable and resilient + gain you life / prolong the game has more merit than simply a 2nd Entreat which you don't need anyways.

Thopter / Sword is just much better in the mirror as well, and shores up some other match-ups. We see so many cards that it's not difficult to assemble. I do think most stock lists of Miracles is too linear and you do lose some %'s pre and post board because of it.

Thopter-Sword is great against Miracles when it's coming out a deck built for it. If you just slot it in with a single Enlightened Tutor and no Stoneforge/Tezzeret, it seems actively bad. The first half they can ignore and the second half and even if you draw the second half they can counter it with you down a card. People also board in hate for Counterbalance, which almost always splashes over onto this combo. One of the problems I had with bringing in multiple non-creature removal spells was they would sit dead in my hand or force me to make bad plays (like actually letting CB/Jace resolve), just to use them. More targets for them would help with that.

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Originally Posted by Cipher

Thopter-Sword is great against Miracles when it's coming out a deck built for it. If you just slot it in with a single Enlightened Tutor and no Stoneforge/Tezzeret, it seems actively bad. The first half they can ignore and the second half and even if you draw the second half they can counter it with you down a card. People also board in hate for Counterbalance, which almost always splashes over onto this combo. One of the problems I had with bringing in multiple non-creature removal spells was they would sit dead in my hand or force me to make bad plays (like actually letting CB/Jace resolve), just to use them. More targets for them would help with that.

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If you absolutely had to, Foundry can always pitch to Force. Secondly, in the mirror they have no way to beat it without a resolved CB sitting on 2 the whole time, but if they have CounterTop assembled, you're probably not going to win, but you always have Entreat and Jace as back ups. That's the thing - you're not relying on 1 way to win. It is similar to the old Dark Depths / Thopter Deck that attacks on multiple lines and have resilient ways to win.

If they counter Thopter/Sword I'm 100% happy. You have Academy Ruins to infinitely re-buy them, and in the mirror they have zero interaction with that card. Wish also let's you get the card you need. They resolve Jace? Go get blast. They resolve CB, get them into a position where you can go get Wear//Tear to answer it. At worst it also pitches to Force and acts as 3 CMC for CB.

I feel like you guys are looking at this without taking in the picture of what the entire deck is trying to do. It is not your typical linear Miracles deck where your lines of play and outs are straight-forward. Having more ways to interact with your opponent is better. I mean, we have SDT, Ponder, Brainstorm, Jace, Wish/E. Tutor, and Academy Ruins, but you say that the deck isn't built to utilize it? I don't understand. The great thing about Miracles is that it is almost variance-less. You will always see nearly your entire deck in every game (barring super fast nut draws from combo opponents). I think Venser + Karakas is way more inferior, but others still play it and it doesn't get as much skepticism. Seems odd to me. Similarly, it's a good trump against the BUG decks with Liliana as Thopters are very annoying for that deck. It also taxes their Abrupt Decays. If they hit your Counterbalance, that's fine, Thopter Sword is probably more annoying for them to deal with.

It just shores up a lot of the poor MU's while also improving your mirror MU.

@Sly, I think it's healthy to provide some skeptical arguments to new developments, to see just how strong the proposed ideas are. Hopefully you aren't too discouraged. If you go to any events, write some reports esp. on how these new card choices affect your outcomes.

I do agree that two foundries and one sword seems a little difficult to put together, compared to another Entreat that while redundant with the existing copy, involves less set-up (given all our library manipulation options).

I'm much more intrigued by the Cunning Wish idea. Anyway, good luck!

@Sly like kirbysdl said, legacy is a very well established format and miracles is a well established deck. Your new ideas will be met with skepticism. That said, don't be discouraged. Think through your choices, what you're giving up and what you're gaining, and if you find something you like, stick with it. If they can withstand the skepticism, they might impact the format.

Your list definitely seems interesting. It seems to me that it's really cleaning up creature matchups by giving up some power against combo. The thopter sword is great against creature decks, but way too slow and clunky against storm plus clique is about the best win condition possible against combo. I'm not entirely convinced that's worth it considering miracles already has a good matchup against most creature decks anyway, but it's still an interesting idea.

Venser + Karakas is great for its flexibility and power even though it is very expensive. It also applies to combo matchups (albeit slow) where thopter would not. It provides a maindeck out to anything my opponent can do, and it can completely wreck reanimator/show and tell/lands/Liliana. That's why I run Venser. It's not just power level, but flexibility that makes the card great.

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Originally Posted by Sly

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It just shores up a lot of the poor MU's while also improving your mirror MU.

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I'm curious what match-ups you are actually improving? What is generally beating Entreat that isn't beating Thopter/Sword?

I'm not sure calling Entreat clunky is really accurate when compared to a two card combo, both halves of which are useless on their own (I guess you can pitch one to force... but it also dies to REB... not really an advantage imho).

It seems to me like the inevitability factor is similar either way, but with Entreat #2 you don't give up CB #4 which is really the combo you want to be assembling most of the time, especially in the mirror. Once you have your lock on, the win condition doesn't really matter. Entreat seems to have the highest impact for the fewest slots which is why it has been the premier choice thus far.

If you're set on running something like this and are playing Academy Ruins I think you absolutely need to have Engineered Explosives somewhere in the 75. EE recursion is a good way to break up CB-Lock and many permanent based decks will fold to it.

EDIT: Also, have you considered moving E.Tutor to the main in place of the Cunning Wish? I like that it has applications like tutoring up something to counter with CB, able to assemble either combo, might be better than spending 4 mana to do the same.

Dangit, I was going to suggest (possibly an additional) E Tutor in the main, but then you got there. :tongue:

I hadn't considered tutoring up an appropriate spell to use with CB, but that's a great application, if rare due to only having the single Tutor.