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@ Arianrhod, Great brewing and equally awesome results! Been away since we last chat on the Scapewish days as I was aiming for Judge L2. Got L2 a year ago and judging PPTQ, RPTQ & GPs took a lot of my time from competitive Legacy magic.
Anyways a question, how do we board again ANT and Show & Tell variants? Seems like we hinging a lot of the strength of our blind therapies?:really:
Out: Decays, dorky creatures that don't provide a clock. Path/spotremoval gets cut against Storm. Deed gets cut against Show & Tell but stays in against Storm for Empty/MentorQuote:
Originally Posted by fireiced
In: Hand disruption, Extraction effects, Hatebears. Needle if we saw Sneak Attack or Griselbrand.
With the current build I'm using, I'd go:
S&T (assuming Sneak/Griselbrand/Emrakul):
-1 Primeval Titan
-1 Thragtusk
-2 Deed
-2 Punishing Fire
-2 Abrupt Decay
+2 Thoughtseize
+2 Slaughter Games
+2 Surgical Extraction
+2 To The Slaughter
Leaving Needle out because the list plays its own copies of Sneak Attack. Against Omni-tell, leave To The Slaughter out and put in Golgari Charm instead.
Against Storm:
-1 Primeval Titan
-1 Reclamation Sage
-2 Punishing Fire
-2 Abrupt Decay
+2 Thoughtseize
+2 Surgical Extraction
+2 Slaughter Games
Slaughter Games can be Lost Legacy if you're not in Red. To The Slaughter probably isn't necessary if you have Swords/Path, so can become Pithing Needle or Teeg/Containment Priest or something.
I think the key to getting Traverse to work is not using black. Flashback on Therapy taking a sorcery out of your graveyard is a big downside. In GU/x we have Perilous Research to sacrifice a permanent, to get 2 in the GY for Traverse which also opens up the Traverse/Snap/Traverse line which is slightly stronger than Traverse/EW/Traverse since it's a mana less.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
Perhaps a RUG build that could use a punishing fire engine (and maybe Crack the Earth) alongside the better grinding power of Traverse?
Black mana gives us Baleful Strix which is great for enabling Traverse, though. I wouldn't be surprised if a Traverse build ended up being in four colours.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
Strix is ok for enabling but it's not necessary. Architects of Will can be enabled with just blue (and just treated as a cantrip). I could see red being good here or I could see white being good... there's a lot of strong white cards these days that are just in need of some tutoring. I actually think Strix is sort of bad as an enabler because StP, DRS, Scavenging Ooze, Council's Judgment, and others are so effective at keeping it out of the GY to count as 2 types.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
I'm pretty skeptical of 4 color decks.
Red actually has some good Delirium enablers like Pyrite Spellbomb and Seal of Fire, in addition to Architects out of Blue. FoW and Daze are good enablers too as is Courser in Green.
But in green you have access to shardless agent who do basically the same job CA/delirium engineering than strix. And who's greatly stronger with traverse than gsz (obviously).
In blue, perilous research can be completed with read the runes which can be more polyvalent and definitely a great delirium friend
Read the Runes could be interesting, but I think it plays bad with Shardless Agent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulysse95
There are a surprising number of creative ways to hit delirium...you mention Seal of Fire, but Tarfire or the other Tribal cards could also help. I'm assuming that such a build would have even MORE one-ofs than usual just to diversify what gets into the grave.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
The payoff of tutoring non-green creatures (or any land) really has to be high in order to be worth the risk of being a lot weaker to graveyard-hating cards that everyone has in their side. Maybe all it takes is a dedicated BUG list with tons of card draw or advantage in order to help offset the loss of how steady GSZ is.
Tarfire is another one. Red splashes are easily able to provide artifacts, enchantments, and tribal which makes them pretty ideal for delirium. That gives you RG, but I kind of think blue is better than black here as the other color, because Cabal Therapy doesn't play well with delirium, and gaining blue gives you counterspells which also free pitch for instants.Quote:
Originally Posted by square_two
I have some experience with RUG Delver in Modern, which I played Traverse in, so that might be part of my bias here, and I have some sort of idea of what worked in that sort of build.
You still need to solve the enormous problems of Deathrite Shaman and Rest in Peace if you want to go down this road.
I don't think RIP is that much of an issue unless you're running a lot of other graveyard synergy.
As far as Deathrite goes, we have two options. Run more non creature/instant/sorcery/land cards - like Liliana of the Veil, Bitterblossom, Oaths and similar - or run a ton of DRS removal. A list with lots of copies of Punishing Fire and Abrupt Decays might be able to deal with Deathrite by just killing them repeatedly.
DRS is easy. Punishing Fire kills him as does Tarfire, Seal of Fire, and Spellbomb all of which you want to enable Delirium anyways.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
RIP is harder.
Would Keranos be a powerful enough finisher to grab with Traverse or would a Huntmaster be better? Part of me likes how compact the Huntmaster combo is, at 4 mana per turn over 2 turns. It's fairly easy to deploy.
T1 - Traverse, get Snapcaster, play Snapcaster, flashback Traverse, get Huntmaster of the Fells
T2 - Play Huntmaster of the Fells
3 bodies out of one card is usually enough to swing a game.
I picked up Crack the Earths last Monday because I was thinking of brainstorming a RG list, or perhaps Jund now that I have Groves and Lilis. I am interested in where this discussion goes. Hopefully non-blue since I don't have blue duals.
Just played the local legacy night. Easily my worst night in months, I thought I was above going on tilt, but apparently bad enough variance can still trigger it. I'm glad it didn't count towards the league.
Round 1 against Goblins. I lose 0-2. Lose game 1 to a T1 Rabblemaster, T2 Chalice for 2
Round 2 against Shardless BUG. Game 1 I lost to 4 resolved Ancestral Visions by turn 7 or 8, including 2 that resolved off blind flips on Shardless Agent. I very nearly kept up on cards, but Visions #4 proved to be too much. Game 2 went for 35 minutes roughly, it started on me keeping a mulligan to 3, and I managed to grind it out. My version is definitely worse against Shardless than the typical Junk list but I can still get there. Round 3 began with 53 seconds left on the clock, I had an amazing hand that could probably win on turn 4 or 5, but I only got to turn 3. 1-1-1
Round 3 was against Dragon Stompy. I lose 0-2.
Overall a pretty bad night at 1-5-1 in games. I would give more details but I got pretty frustrated with myself in round 1 because I knew I was making misplays in the games, but I couldn't seem to identify where I was doing so. That lead to me making other bad plays throughout the night and the whole thing ended with an opponent on the play in round 3 game 3 that opened Ancient Tomb, Simian Spirit Guide, Magus of the Moon... to my Windswept Heath, Verdant Catacombs, Noble Hierarch, Deathrite Shaman, 2x Green Sun's Zenith, Plains. Pretty fitting end to the night.
I've been thinking today about this. Definitely interested in green/red here. I've thought of the Perilous Research route in RUG but when I went over it in my head this is how the theory worked out for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by MDHackbert
Cabal Therapy is usually worth 2.5 cards in my experience (doesn't always hit, but sometimes gets doubles). Then the flashback is also worth 2 cards off of a sacrificed Veteran. In the end it's a 4.5 card swing. Perilous Research though is only worth 4 cards. So the black advantage is greater than the blue advantage.
Also, I was thinking that Young Pyromancer could be key here. I'm still a fan of the low to the ground, high velocity builds. Therapy produces 2 tokens to Researchs 1, and does so at a mana less. Also, black leaves open the option of Bob, which is amazing in these sorts of builds.
So, I was thinking something focused on getting the best Therapys possible. Probably around the range of 24 lands, 18 creatures 19 others. The downside to this is that 19 spells isn't really enough to get Pyromancer value. So I was thinking the Punishing Fire engine could augment it. This is what I have for a first draft, still needs more work. And as you can see in the list it's in my style of low cost/high velocity over high cost beaters.
Something like this
Land 24
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Taiga
3 Forest
2 Mountain
1 Swamp
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
Creatures 18
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
3 Young Pyromancer
3 Dark Confidant
1 Eternal Witness
1 Dualcaster Mage
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Tireless Tracker
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
Spells 19
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Crack the Earth
2 Tarfire
2 Seal of Fire
2 Pyrite Spellbomb
4 Sensei's Divining Top
The only issue is, it feels like it needs some Abrupt Decay somewhere in there and 4 Gitaxian Probes would be nice.
Anytime I see Pyrite, it makes me yearn for Bomberman. Transforming into a different GY strategy is usually not advisable though.
Currently running Arianrhod's 61 mb Sneaky Fit list. Where do you get the space for 1 off MB Reclamation Sage? I have also cut the 4th Sneak Attack to go down to 60 cards, not very sure if this is the correct cut.:really:Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
I am still on the Diabolic Edit / Dreadbore 1:1 split instead of TTS simply due to casting cost. I want to pay for Daze vs Reanimator.
@Brael: Grove of the Burnwillows, but no Punishing Fire? Seems like an odd choice. You could drop down to 21/22 land and slot in 2/3 Gitaxian Probe. And perhaps drop Crack the Earth for Probe no. 3/4. The list is incredibly light on meat though.
Oh, and (to make things worse) Traverse seems like a very fun card to loop around w/ Meren + Eternal Witness + sac outlet. Or, you know, Meren + Eternal Witness + Perilous Research. Also seems like a neat little loop.
I'm on 61 cards, and the cut I made is Meren I believe. Griselbrand becomes a Woodland Bellower, and I think I'm running one fewer Punishing Fire to make room for the second Fierce Empath.Quote:
Originally Posted by fireiced
I find Reanimator usually boards Daze out against us. I like TTS because instant speed is so good against Infect and Lands, I can see the argument for Diabolic Edict though.
From my (limited compared to yours) experience I have found sidisi lacklustre: against fast decks he is slow, otherwise he has a nice effect (of course) but that is quite fragile: removal in response to his ability is a blowout, and its not like jund has a broad board presence. Maybe I'm playing the deck wrong? I'm still new to playing with mountains
I haven't played enough with Sidisi to judge her well. She's a fifth copy of Sneak Attack which is pretty good, but she's definitely in the 3 or so cards I would drop first.