[Deck] Dredge

noLED has been Top8ing Milano recently... the list runs maindeck DR targets in place of some cards (I think at the cost of 2 lands and a Thug from the standard list).

Found it:
http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1329

Since I don't like the maindeck DR targets, I'd run the stock list together with that SB. Not sure about Blazing Archon, I guess I'd play another Chain over it. The format is just too random to ensure that Nature's Claim works well, so I'd stick to Chain as a catch-all.

Terastodon has been devastating for me when I played noLED. But i remember that I completely sucked out that day, I'm still not sure if it's my own fault or that the deck doesn't mulligan as well as I thought.

http://www.eternal-central.com/?p=918#more-918

I can't understand how people wants to get stability with 3 ichorid and 3 or less therapies!

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Originally Posted by sa17dk

http://www.eternal-central.com/?p=918#more-918

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I don't see how that deck plans on casting Putrid Imp and Entomb consistently with only 8 black sources.

I personally dont like the Entomb either. I'd much rather have the 4th Thug and a Tireless Tribe over the two Entombs. However, I do like the Street Wraith for that immediate dredge. I might experiment with Street Wraiths over Careful Study.

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Originally Posted by GoldenCid

I can't understand how people wants to get stability with 3 ichorid and 3 or less therapies!

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Cabal Therapy is easily one of the most important cards in the deck, which is why I wouldn't want to run less than 4 main. However, some people cut the 4th for additional Dread Return Targets in the main. The deck can work well with 3 Therapies but against Combo and Control I think the 4th Therapy should be at least in the sb, and most of the times it is. I agree that less than 3 Therapies is not optimal.

3 Ichorids do work very well. Against fast decks you don't really need Ichorids, so 3 are fine. Against Control you often want to have the 4th, but then it is sufficient to have it in the sideboard. Also you will more often have Ichorids in your opening hand (which is a dead card there) and you will also run out of Ichorid food more often if running 4. It's matter of preference I guess.

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Originally Posted by Izor

Cabal Therapy is easily one of the most important cards in the deck, which is why I wouldn't want to run less than 4 main. However, some people cut the 4th for additional Dread Return Targets in the main. The deck can work well with 3 Therapies but against Combo and Control I think the 4th Therapy should be at least in the sb, and most of the times it is. I agree that less than 3 Therapies is not optimal.

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Running 4 Therapys is the only right choice you can make.
It is pure crap to cut maybe the best card in this deck (besides Breakthrough). It is the most flexible spell we have.
So if you want a slot, cut one Ichorid to 3, but please play the playset Therapys xD.

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Originally Posted by CabalTherapy

Running 4 Therapys is the only right choice you can make.
It is pure crap to cut maybe the best card in this deck (besides Breakthrough). It is the most flexible spell we have.
So if you want a slot, cut one Ichorid to 3, but please play the playset Therapys xD.

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... says the guy with CabalTherapy as his name and avatar. But yeah, I think Cabal Therapy should definitely be a 4 of. I pretty much always want to see two of them, and they're pretty much this deck's only source of advantage in the storm matchup since it'd likely lose a straight up race.

Ok I just bought into ichorid (had the unique opportunity to get the deck whole) and I have a few questions vs led and non-led lists. Please be patient with me :)

I play the most consistent non-led list available. No DR targets, playsets of everything, 2 dread return, 14 lands (2 tarnished citadel).

If I wanted to play LEDed, I'd go - 2 tarnished, -4 careful study, +4 LED, + 2 Deep analysis. Is this correct? I'm aiming for consistency mainly.

What matchups are different? From what I understand:
LED advantages= Quicker, better vs storm, better vs fast aggro.
Non-LED advantages= More consistent, don't mull to death as often, better vs blue (stuff with force), better after sideboarding because of more manasources.

Is the above accurate? I'm leaning on non-leds at the moment as, I'd just play storm combo (I have LEDs) if I were facing an aggro field. I plan to play Ichorid in an all blue meta as it just rapes unprepared sideboards.

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Originally Posted by ivanpei

Ok I just bought into ichorid (had the unique opportunity to get the deck whole) and I have a few questions vs led and non-led lists. Please be patient with me :)

I play the most consistent non-led list available. No DR targets, playsets of everything, 2 dread return, 14 lands (2 tarnished citadel).

If I wanted to play LEDed, I'd go - 2 tarnished, -4 careful study, +4 LED, + 2 Deep analysis. Is this correct? I'm aiming for consistency mainly.

What matchups are different? From what I understand:
LED advantages= Quicker, better vs storm, better vs fast aggro.
Non-LED advantages= More consistent, don't mull to death as often, better vs blue (stuff with force), better after sideboarding because of more manasources.

Is the above accurate? I'm leaning on non-leds at the moment as, I'd just play storm combo (I have LEDs) if I were facing an aggro field. I plan to play Ichorid in an all blue meta as it just rapes unprepared sideboards.

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Basically you got everything right.

But in the LED build you will also use Sphinx of Lost Truths and Flame-Kin Zealot in order to have the chance to win on turn 1. As this is basically the only thing LED builds do better than non-LED ones, you won't want to miss them. Of course that makes the deck even more inconsistent.

Does anyone still plays Firestorm in the Sideboard?
I haven't seen it lately... Is it bad now?

I <3 Firestorm personally. Works as a discard outlet against countermagic, moon effects, chalice, can take out their dudes/deal damage. Can't see a reason not to run it.

Thanks Izor, I just tested the LED builds and its pretty bad vs blue. You need a god hand to really make it go busted (Ie land + draw + led+ dredger). Which is pretty difficult to come by as you are shaving land, draw (no carefuls) and dredgers. Usually you draw 3 of the 4. I almost always mull hands without a dredger, but I can live with out 1 of the remaining 3 (LED, land, draw). Of those 3, missing the LED is the least painful which gets me to wondering why I have to play crap like LED anyways? I'm solidly on the non-ledlists now. Against combo/fast decks, I don't understand why non-sphinx targets are good (Ie Iona, FKZ etc). Against storm, if I DR a sphinx I flip like 15-16 cards on average netting me 1 or more therapies usually. I then use the therapies to go to work on my opponent's hand, taking out the card that will kill me the next turn while netting myself plenty of zombies. I then kill them with ichorids + zombies the turn after.

In what situation are the other targets better than sphinx? You can deny with Iona, but sphinx + flipped therapies does the same thing AND kills next turn. FKZ, "might" kill when you DR it, but if you didnt hit that many bridges, it "might" not get there too. Terastodon I understand because thats an out to moat, propaganda, hunting grounds etc. Stuff like ancestors chosen is also iffy to me because if I DR a sphinx, I can use the zombies to block, and the therapies to nuke the burn out of zoo's hand. Thanks in advance for the explanations.

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Originally Posted by ivanpei

Thanks Izor, I just tested the LED builds and its pretty bad vs blue. You need a god hand to really make it go busted (Ie land + draw + led+ dredger). Which is pretty difficult to come by as you are shaving land, draw (no carefuls) and dredgers. Usually you draw 3 of the 4. I almost always mull hands without a dredger, but I can live with out 1 of the remaining 3 (LED, land, draw). Of those 3, missing the LED is the least painful which gets me to wondering why I have to play crap like LED anyways? I'm solidly on the non-ledlists now. Against combo/fast decks, I don't understand why non-sphinx targets are good (Ie Iona, FKZ etc). Against storm, if I DR a sphinx I flip like 15-16 cards on average netting me 1 or more therapies usually. I then use the therapies to go to work on my opponent's hand, taking out the card that will kill me the next turn while netting myself plenty of zombies. I then kill them with ichorids + zombies the turn after.

In what situation are the other targets better than sphinx? You can deny with Iona, but sphinx + flipped therapies does the same thing AND kills next turn. FKZ, "might" kill when you DR it, but if you didnt hit that many bridges, it "might" not get there too. Terastodon I understand because thats an out to moat, propaganda, hunting grounds etc. Stuff like ancestors chosen is also iffy to me because if I DR a sphinx, I can use the zombies to block, and the therapies to nuke the burn out of zoo's hand. Thanks in advance for the explanations.

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Maindeck DR targets are so unnecessary. You came to the right conclusion. I used to run fancy stuff like Iona maindeck and I realized that they were all unneeded. Sure, they make you feel safer, but they are unnecessary:

Against Goblins you dont need Iona because they'll bring in shit via Lackey and Vials and a swinging 15/15 Troll is gonna wipe their board or kill them.
Against Merfolk, if you're resolving a Dread Return, you're winning. It also doesnt help that they can double block your Iona with two 5/5 Coralhelms and survive combat with a 4/4 Coralhelm leftover. If you're swinging with an enormous Troll, however, their board gets wiped just like in the Goblins case or they lose.
Against Storm, it's better to race them with a fat Troll or rape them with Cabal Therapy.
Against Control, if you're resolving a Dread Return, you're winning. Sure, you dont have cute stuff like Iona naming white to block Swords, but then you just swarm them instead with the 2/2's you just got and Ichorids next turn.
Etc.

Another example of a successful list without maindeck DR targets http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=37949

Also, 3 Ichorids are fine. I ran 4 for the longest time then went back to 3 because I saw them in my opening hand too much. I'm running the same list as in the link I just posted, except I'm using a 15th land over the 4th Ichorid.

Yeap I run the exact same MD list. I'll test the 15th land, seems good. My sb looks like this:

4 Chain
4 Grudge
3 Firestorm
1 Ray
1 Sphinx
1 Terastodon
1 Dread Return

IMO the Sphinx is the best target if you want to wreck fast decks like storm combo. Dredging 15/16 cards to wreck their hand with therapies is ideal. Sphinx can also find Terastodon when you are playing against lock down decks like enchantress/stax etc. I prefer Sphinx over ancestors chosen because of the reasons I've mentioned above.

Does anyone tests Darkblast in the Maindeck? Last Sunday on a Tournament i stand after 7 Rounds 2/5/0...
My opponents:
- Big Zoo (lost 0/2)
- Zoo (lost 0/2)
- Merfolk (won 2/0)
- Enchantress (lost 0/2)
- Affinity (lost 0/2)
- Merfolk (won 2/1)
- Eva Green (lost 1/2)

Big Zoo/ Zoo:

Both games i lost against Grim Lavamancer... (!!!)

Merfolk:

Easy games.

Enchantress:

It's realy hard to win against Elephant Grass and Game 2 against Wheel.

Affinity:

The Affinity Guy played Maindeck 3 Relics... No Chance against Sac effects of Atog and Ravager.

Eva Green:

He played Jailer an i had so answers to it...


The thing i mean is, that Darkblast could win against Lavamancer and Jailer. But i haven't test Darkblast. Does anyone else?

(sry for my poor english)

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Originally Posted by ivanpei

Thanks Izor, I just tested the LED builds and its pretty bad vs blue. You need a god hand to really make it go busted (Ie land + draw + led+ dredger). Which is pretty difficult to come by as you are shaving land, draw (no carefuls) and dredgers. Usually you draw 3 of the 4. I almost always mull hands without a dredger, but I can live with out 1 of the remaining 3 (LED, land, draw). Of those 3, missing the LED is the least painful which gets me to wondering why I have to play crap like LED anyways? I'm solidly on the non-ledlists now. Against combo/fast decks, I don't understand why non-sphinx targets are good (Ie Iona, FKZ etc). Against storm, if I DR a sphinx I flip like 15-16 cards on average netting me 1 or more therapies usually. I then use the therapies to go to work on my opponent's hand, taking out the card that will kill me the next turn while netting myself plenty of zombies. I then kill them with ichorids + zombies the turn after.

In what situation are the other targets better than sphinx? You can deny with Iona, but sphinx + flipped therapies does the same thing AND kills next turn. FKZ, "might" kill when you DR it, but if you didnt hit that many bridges, it "might" not get there too. Terastodon I understand because thats an out to moat, propaganda, hunting grounds etc. Stuff like ancestors chosen is also iffy to me because if I DR a sphinx, I can use the zombies to block, and the therapies to nuke the burn out of zoo's hand. Thanks in advance for the explanations.

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What you said is the basic reason LEDless builds perform better than LED on average currently.

As far as maindecked Dread Return Targets are concerned it is for sure a personal preference whether to run some or not and how many. The most consistent build will only contain 2 Dread Returns and no Targets. While I will usually also use a build with optimal consistency I cannot deny that maindecked Dread Return Targets are way better than Grave Troll. A 20/20 regenerating Troll is not half as good ad a 7/7 Flyer that locks your opponent out of a color, thats just a fact. And a Target that finishes your opponent off by giving your Zmbies Haste and +1/+1 is also better. People say that no opponent can win through a turn 2 15/15 Grave Troll with 7 Zombies. Well, this happens more often than one would expect; Sword the Troll, EE the Zombies for example. But these are only marginal cases. There are indeed some matches only Iona would be able to win for you, like Stax, UW Landstill, Enchantress and Lands. Trolls will often fail here. Combo is also an example. I have lost so many games against Combo that went off while I had 2 big Trolls on the field. One FKZ or Iona would have won the game in those situations.
Sphinx is a Deep analysis that doesn't cost mana and it is great at finding your FKZ or Iona. Even if one doesn't find it, Sphinx will at least give you some extra Zombies and Therapies. The problem with it is the fact that it absolutely depends on Bridges. So against a deck like Affinity, which is able to nuke your Bridges whenever they want with Ravager Sphinx doesn't really do much. That dependency on Bridges is also true for FKZ. Additionally FKZ usually relies on Sphinx as well, because a FKZ alone will rarely win on turn 2 or 3.

Don't get me wrong, I usually don't use DR targets myself main. But there is no denying that they are really good, much better than Troll in most situations. The only reason not to run them is a very important one: we don't have slots for them.
So I think one can't simply say that Dread Return targets are completely useless. They aren't. The right phrase would be: Dread Return Targets don't warrant the consistency loss. Or you say they DO warrant the consistency loss. Then you are one of the people that run some DR Targets main. It's all about weighing power against consistency.

@ Darkblast: Two main reasons not to run it over Thug: It's not a creature, thus can't be eaten by Ichorid and it only dredges 3 instead of 4. So we can't really afford to drop Thug for it. What could be done, however, is cut one Thug for one copy of Darkblast. This will usually be enough to combat Meddling Mages, Gaddock Teegs. But it won't be enough against Jailer. Lavamancer... well this is not really a card Dredge should fear too much.

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Originally Posted by Izor

The most consistent build will only contain 2 Dread Returns and no Targets.

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I agree because the probability to have some targets like Iona or FKZ in your opening hand is at zero. But i play with LED and as DR targets i run Eternal Witness and FKZ. I think the EW is realy nice target. You can get Breakthrough, LED, Coliseum etc. This is very nice.

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@ Darkblast: Two main reasons not to run it over Thug...

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Your explanation about the Ichorid targets is completely right. But i thought that Dredge 3 or 4 is imo not relevant. But as i've said, i didn't tested it.


Normaly i play the LED version, but i think that i will run the LEDless built at the Legacy Sideevent at GP Bochum. But are 4 Tireless Tribe realy necessary? Do u think that i can cut one and put an Eternal Witness in this Slot?

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Originally Posted by Bischof

Your explanation about the Ichorid targets is completely right. But i thought that Dredge 3 or 4 is imo not relevant. But as i've said, i didn't tested it.


Normaly i play the LED version, but i think that i will run the LEDless built at the Legacy Sideevent at GP Bochum. But are 4 Tireless Tribe realy necessary? Do u think that i can cut one and put an Eternal Witness in this Slot?

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The Dredge 4 instead of 3 does matter, even if it doesn't seem like much. Darkblast is playable, but usually Thug is the right choice.

Without LED you need something to get your hand into your grave as fast as possible. Breakthrough shouldn't be used as a discard outlet, so there are only PImp, Study and Therapy. Therapy is of course only an emergency solution as you will want to aim it at your opponent if possible. Study is great, but only gets 2 cards into your grave. So in the LEDless build you will notice that PImp is your absolute favorite discard outlet. With Tribe you have the possibility of playing PImps 5-8. You couldn't wish for more.
Then, cutting the 4th Tribe for a DR Target again belongs into the discussion consistency vs main DR Targets. I would personally never cut the 4th Tribe if i can avoid it, I'd rather cut the 4th Study or Ichorid.

Thanks Izor, I don't doubt that targets are necessary in some situations, I'm just wondering why people run iona instead of sphinx when IMO, sphinx is better in alot more situations. I see that Iona is sometimes better for slow-rolling and not being too dependent on bridges. That's a new revelation for me.

I'm not sure if the 9th/10th rainbow lands have been discussed before. Obviously missing land drops with paradise is quite relevant compared to the pain from tarnished. However I can see that you really only need to make the 2nd land drop in the following situations:

1. You have tribe/imp and you want to play a rainbow land T1 and cephalid colliseum T2
2. You want your turn 2 play to be protected from daze
3. You want to cast 2 spells on turn 2

I can see Situation 2 being very common. Situation 1 can sometimes pop up and situation 3 is quite rare (land + discard outlet + dredger + double draw spells). However my question is: Is the pain worth it every time you draw tarnished to cover for the above 3 situations. Against blue obviously the pain is irrelevant, however I can see the advantages of the speed vs combo. However considering how aggro infested the meta is right now, do you think playing undiscovered paradise is a better call? Just in case the life is important when facing zoo or goblins. I usually tap a land for mana roughly 2 times per game (sometimes 3 times). Which may cause 6-9 damage when using tarnished.

I've lost a couple of games due to this. So is the damage worth it? IMO I'm thinking twice about playing tarnished. I might try undiscovered paradise and see if the missed landdrop affects me much. Daze is being dropped in alot of lists so situation 2 might not be as common as before.