[Deck] Dragon Stompy

I dont think black is the way to go with that deck. I also don't think you want to play overpriced cards like Chandra or Karn... I mean 7 mana... wtf Koth is the best of the Walkers, but I don't think that he is good enough because he cant Protect himself.

Werewolfs are IMO the way to go with the deck. They provide fast Aggro, and with all our lockpieces, the opponent shouldn't be able to flip them. A flipped Instigator Gang should be a huge + for us... even Revokers and Magus does big beats then. Throw in a few equipments and give that build a try.


Lock
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Phyrexian Revoker

Beatz
4 Hanweir Watchkeep
4 Instigator Gang
3 Mondronen Shaman
1 Batterskull

Utility
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Mana
4 Chrome Mox
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Snow-Covered Mountain

I have no clue about the Sideboard, but I still think Tormod's Crypt is better than Grafdiggers Cage. You want to play CotV1 against Dredge as soon as possible, and a opening with Crypt into Trinisphere is also pretty much GG if you know how to time your hate. Sry for not dating up the OP in a long time, but I rarely play the deck, nowadays, and the inconstance just annoys me. :rolleyes:


regards, Necro

Well, as I've been having some rather positive results with my artifact-based Dragon Stompy build I figured I'd post it. You'll notice I haven't made any outlandish card choices, however, its different from the builds most players have been running. The following list is one I'm currently running and, unless I come across any new revelations in my playtesting, will be the list I plan to take with me to the Starcity Games Legacy Invitational Qualifier at Legion Games in Burnsville April 22nd (pending I don't chicken out at the last second and take my Enchantress deck instead :p):


4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Great Furnace
6 Mountain

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Mox Opal
2 Batterskull
3 Umezawa's Jitte

2 Blood Moon

4 Seething Song

4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Etched Champion
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Moltensteel Dragon
1 Akroma, Angel of Fury

1 Blood Moon
3 Anarchy
3 Shattering Spree
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Pyroblast
First and foremost we'll take a look at the addition of Lodestone Golem. A few pages back I gave a brief description as to the pros/cons of Trinisphere vs [/cards]Lodestone Golem[/cards].

Trinisphere Pros/Cons
+ Fits nicely into the original 3cc curve.
+ Realistically can be cast Turn 1-2 consistently.
+ Only suceptible to artifact hate which is never MD and is only ever SB depending on deck and meta.
+ Hoses "free," spells (Force of Will/Daze/Pact of Negation, etc.).
- Useless in multiples; doesn't stack.
- Does nothing to affect present board state.
- Much weaker against decks with higher-than-average mana curves or with access to greater pools of mana (Merfolk Fish, Zoo, Aggro Loam, etc.).

Lodestone Golem Pros/Cons
+ Sitting at a 5/3 body allows to easily deal with most creatures in the format or punch through critical damage.
+ Abilities stack.
+ Reasonably cast off 2 Sol lands or varying accelerants.
- Being a creature makes it suceptible to mainstream hate (Swords to Plowshare/Path to Exile/[cards]/Burn).
- At 3 toughness can be answered quite readily by creatures popular in the current meta (Delver of Secrets, KotR, Equipped creatures).

These are just a few bullet points but essentially what my playtesting presented was that while 3sphere was amazing for those initial several turns where it extremely limited an opponents ability to cast their spells (as well as long turn damaging a blue player's ability to keep reserve mana for counters) 3spheres inability to do anything to the board state as well as being redundant in multiples made it quite lackluster, particularly when faced against decks like UR Delver that aim to finish the game asap with 4 efficient creatures, burn, and counter back-up.
Contrariwise, Lodestone Golem resolved all the weaknesses encountered by 3sphere. Unlike 3sphere its abilities do, in fact, stack. Having a 5/3 body means that even costing 4 mana makes its an efficient beater. Not to mention that mid-late game its still a useful topdeck to have as it providing a locking mechanism plus a creature all-on-one. The primary weakness with Lodestone is its suceptibiltiy to creature-based hate which, imo, is a reasonable trade for the utilities he provides.
In my playtesting atm I've discovered that although my theorycraft suggested 3sphere should be removed if Lodestone is in the deck, the testing has shown that 3sphere/Lodestone work quite nicely together in the deck. By this I don't mean to imply they have inherent synergy however have repetition with the locking mechanism of higher-casting spells not only further increases our chances to initially lock out an opponent in the early game, but as this build has a higher flux of artifacts/cc neither locking piece hurts us. I am still convinced that the 3sphere in this build is a meta/flex spot and often times I end up siding out my 3spheres when I feel they aren't warranted.

Next, we'll look at Etched Champion.
This card I've been having mixed results. The most common utility I've used him for was being able to negate nearly every creature on my opponents field. As Metalcraft is quite easy to obtain with this build Champion essentially becomes the best blocker one can have. He is able to readily answer Goyf/KotR/Equipped creatures, and being an Artifact himself means an opponent can't use Mom in response to him being declared a blocker. The added bonus with Champion (and probably the most smug feeling I get from the entire deck) is equipping him with either Batterskull or Umezawa's Jitte and swinging directly at their dome. Not to mention, of course, his 3cc.
Now we'll look at his primary downside. Although I've never had issues getting Metalcraft this weakness does still exist so it requires noting. Unless you have Metalcraft hes just a vanilla 2/2. Even with Metalcraft sitting on a 2/2 body means hes pretty much always going to be a reserved blocker as even in best of circumstance you don't want to give your opponent that much of a clock to answer him. I am still in the early phases of testing him as a creature, so I will post more results once I have them. Currently hes fulfilling the x4 deck slots which until now have been reserved for Lord of Shatterskull Pass.

Next, Akroma, Angel of Fury.
Her addition is primarily a choice based on personal flavor. Shes a great mid-late game card, essentially immune to all removal once morphed, and works as a grreat finisher. Back in the days when Counterbalance was more prevalent I would run her at x2 or so. In the current metas she really isn't necessary. I would highly suggest players use this spot as an extra flex spot as her inclusion is entirely based on personal preference rather than practical application.

x2 Batterskull, x3 Umezawa's Jitte.

You'd think with Etched Champion I'd want to abuse more Swords such as Sword of Body and Mind. While the respective swords are useful, I consider Batterskull/Umezawa's Jitte to be the most efficient for our deck. Batterskull, obviously recovers our life quite fast while also providing Vigilance to make any creature double as both an attacker and a blocker. Jitte, again obviously, recovers life and, as is the more relevant ability, our main source removal. I used to rely on Flametongue Kavu for removal however being a creature itself and requiring a target means its much more limited in this capacity. Lets face it, a Jitte on any creature automatically makes that Jitte/creature a threat that needs to be answered.
I'd like to include more Batterskull however my deck already has an insanely high curve and I can't justify the extra slot. I'll leave it to each DS player to determine their equipment however with the new creatures we've gotten in the last few sets as well as Batterskull, having a token as well as static pro U/G seems less relevant. I honestly think that these two equipments are most ideal for our deck.

Only x2 Blood Moon.
Many DS players are apprehensive to go belower 7-8 Moon effects however with the current DTB's Moon effects have become less back-breaking than before. UR Delver, although being slowed down slightly by a Moon (as it shuts off the U from Volcanics meaning its harder to flash in Snapcaster; also it negates Price of Progress which some builds run). ultimately Moon doesn't hurt them. Moon effects are conveinant for shutting of Waste/Maze as run by Bant/Maverick decks, being G/W-G/W/U as well as running Birds of Paradise/Noble Hierarch means they'll never be shut off from their colored mana of choice. True, Moon can hose some combo decks, but CotV/3sphere are much more efficient at doing that.
Moon, imo, is ALWAYS a meta-lock, never a "ALWAYS include in deck," like Chalice or 3sphere. I'm not advocating removing Moon effects as of yet nor am I suggesting relying soley on just 4-5 moon effects to do the job, however, this deck, with the addition of better creatures, doesn't need to rely quite so heavily on shutting down our opponent to win a game.

And now to the SB, specifically, Pyroblast.

Now, SB's are, of course, used to resolve MU's for your meta so I won't discuss what should go here. In general I consider my SB to be well-versed to dealing with a great majority of problem-decks as well as being somewhat ideal for unknown metas.
x1 Moon- Easily a flex spot, but on ocassion I like increasing their number to help shore up certain MU's with greedy mana bases such as Rock.
x3 Anarchy- Answer KotR, Mom, Progenitus, etc. NO-Prog is less common in the current metas, but especially against decks like Maverick being able to clear all relevant creatures on their side (ie. Mom/KotR/Stoneforge/Qasali) is nothing to snuff at.
x3 Shattering Spree- The applications are quite obvious as with Replication it can punch through counters to destroy problematic artifacts (which in most cases is equipment). Another card that my receive playtesting for this build (and one I've had great success in my SFM-Rock build) is Manriki-Gusari.
x4 Phyrexian Revoker- As I've always said this cards needs to be in the 75 card list of Dragon Stompy, however it being MD or SB is based on metas. My meta doesn't warrant it MD, so here it is in the SB.
x4 Pyroblast- This is a card of which I honestly believe DS builds neglect to take advantage. For a pittance one mana investment you can insta-kill any Merfolk Lord, Jace 2.0, or, as is often times the more relevant application, counter an opponents counterspell. Yes, there is an obvious antisynergy with CotV however the strengths you gain with Pyroblast far outweight those random instances when you have a CotV @ 1 and can't cast the Pyroblast. Note that its probably smart to do a 2-2 split of Red Elemental Blast-Pyroblast however as cards like Nevermore/Meddling Mage/Extirpate/Surgical Extraction are next to nonexistent in my metas, and as its unlikely that an opponent will pick [cards]Pyroblast[/cards[ to name, I've decided that I would prefer to keep the card with the cooler picture (It has a dragon! :D).

Well, thats all I have for now. I'd love to post newer or grander ideas/evolutions for the deck but as there has been a very small and select card pool from the newer sets that we could possibly use it has been difficult.

@ MaximusC: I just now saw you had made a post for a possible BR build you were going to playtest. I've never made a build like that myself, so I'll plan on doing some theorycrafting with ya after I take a break. For some reason I decide to hit the wrong button when writing this post thus scrolling away from the page and forcing me to rewrite it. -.-'

@ NecroYawg: I know its still early but how has your playtesting with the werewolves gone? When they were first revealed I worked out several lists that resolved around them but ultimately I opted to explore my artifact build more.


EDIT: I apologize if my post looks awkward. Apparantly The Source is having some issues as some of the errors (like entire paragraphs with card tags) that are appearing on the post don't show up in the Edit box. I'll plan on bumping this thread once again once The Source fixes the problems its having.

Forlorn Egoist

Dragon Stompy looks really well-positioned right now. Or rather, Chalice of the Void, Trinisphere, Blood Moon, and Magus of the Moon look really good right now, especially if you can also jam in Lodestone Golem as well.

However, most of the red creatures in the format are embarrassing. Magus, Gathan Raiders, Rakdos Pit-Dragon, and Simian Spirit Guide are autoincludes. Running Lodestone Golem and Phyrexian Revoker would be great, but that severely hurts the red count for Chrome Mox. Arc-Slogger is a beast when it hits, but I'd like to avoid 5-drops in a deck that already has consistency issues. I'm thinking the next best options include Flametongue Kavu, Taurean Mauler, and maybe Kazuul or Lord of Shatterskull Pass. Has anyone had luck with Moltensteel Dragon or Slash Panther? They synergize well with both Chrome Mox and Lodestone Golem. Phyrexian Metamorph may be an option as well.

Edit: Has anyone tried Avalanche Riders to blow up the opponent's only basic land? Seems sweet.

Hey guys. I participated in 3 tournaments, and I earned a very bad rank in all 3.

The mistakes I did that helped toward this were:

1) More theorycrafting than testing! I know I won't do good again, if I keep planning more than I test. And it is only natural that I did serious play mistakes, due to less practice.

2) Having less threats. The lock pieces are not an omnipotent solution. They cannot deal damage. The threats do that. If I could play with 30 creatures in DS, I'd happily do it. Maybe the best thing to do about topdeck mode, and the luck factor in MtG is more threats (that you can cast in time).

3) Playing an aggressive deck in a defensive manner. Maindeck 4x Ensnaring bridge seemed good at first, but Spiral tide, Burn, and Enchantress' - Aggro Loam's Seismic Assault didn't care about it.
I'm beginning to understand that damn sentence Taco and Yawg posted over and over: "We are the aggro deck." It seems to me now that the most important element in this deck is speed, even more important than the lockpieces. I understood the value of the 4 Seething Songs.
I think a Dragon Stompy player should play like a samurai who (once engaged) wants to draw and deliver only one deadly blow if he can -OR the fewer the better!!- and end the battle quickly.
If we overspecialise in disabling those duals, I think we're done for.

4) Bad luck. Which is an element I accept. Even the best players are not immune to bad luck, when playing MtG. (Wizards, it's a 19 year old game. Please, do something about manascrew and manaflood. At least make happy mulligan official in all tournaments).

Forlorn Egoist, nice post. My problem with your list is that Mox Opal can't make the: Mountain, Mox -> Chalice opening. Plus that it's Legendary, and I want 4 moxes. Plus that I won't give more money for moxes (kidding:))
Also Blood moon doesn't disable Price of Progress . A nonbasic land under Blood Moon is still a nonbasic land ( - Mountain). BM affects only the subtype of the land, not the type, or supertype (or name).

For example, Flagstones of Trokair will read:

Flagstones of Trokair:

Legendary (non-basic) Land - Mountain

Legendary and non-basic are the supertypes of the card. Land is the type. Mountain is the subtype.

I think I'd surely play Etched champion in a artifact build.

Currently I'm testing a hellbent list and a non-hellbent. I'll simply choose the fastest one in the end. The non-hellbent list has 4x Instigator Gang, 4x Trinisphere and Kargan/Lord "levelers". I want to do something on the turn that I don't play spells, waiting for werewolf to transform. Leveling up is a choice. So is equipping.

The good thing with Instigator Gang is that he proves many a time faster than the hellbent dudes. And while Trinisphere makes it harder to maintain hellbent and pump the dragons, the Gang is helped by Trinisphere. We'll see who proves better.

The other list plays with the 8 hellbent guys, 1 Moltensteel Dragon and 2 Kargan Dragonlord. (The Molten-Kargan play on the first list as well).
I try to follow Francesco Dalla Via's model: https://sales.starcitygames.com/deck...p?DeckID=28914 .
That is: cheaper, efficient solutions. If we can build without a single round of uncastability issues, let's do it. So I'd play 1-2 jitte in a hellbent list, and I'd prefer 0-2 Arc-sloggers.

At the same time, about 2 years ago(?), Mink played 23 threats, hellbent and Sloggers, but also played 11 mountains. http://www.mtgoacademy.com/going-for...lassic-format/
He wanted to support his more mana expensive version with the addition of a mountain.

In my opinion, an element that made both lists successful (after the castability element) is:
the inclusion of cards that offer board control, and a fast winning condition, all in one. 3x Jitte in the first case and 4x Arc-Slogger in the second. They both have the steam to clear the board. If the board doesn't need to be cleared, then both cards can redirect this steam right onto the opponent's life marking sheet.

One more note on Francesco's list. Maybe Seething Song is at its best when you can play two things with it. Turn one Kargan Dragonlord and Blood Moon. Turn one Chalice and Mauler. Turn one Blood Moon & Revoker. Turn two Mauler and Kargan, after a t1 lockpiece, etc..
It's harder for the opponent to counter or deal with both of those two pieces. While it's easier to play Dismember on just one. Okay, Firespout , I know. It's still harder though.

Forlorn Egoist, one more thing: There is a difference between Pyroblast and Red Elemental Blast.

Pyroblast can target any permanent, and after that, if that permanent is blue, it is destroyed. That is something useful when you want to get rid of Pyro in order to get hellbent, and the opponent is playing a blue deck without blue permanents.

REB on the other hand can only target a blue permanent, which means the opponent (let's say Hivemind) won't redirect it on any other permanent via Misdirection .

Google it for more info and make your pick bro:D

I use Arc-slogers in that non-hellbent list. If I finally use only two, maybe they will be Siege-Gang Commander, who can toss Maulers too. Again, that will depend on which is really faster.

To all of the Werewolf lovers out there. Using transformed Kruin Outlaw for semi-unblockability also helps your Taurean Maulers out. Think about it.

So, I'm trying to build the fastest Dragon Stompy ever, without sentimental attachments to any of my favorite good-looking cards. Let's just be efficient to the max, gentlemen.

@ Odysseus: BM DOES affect Price of Progress. The only thing BM can't affect is supertypes (Legendary/Artifact Lands) thus Tomb/City/Dual lands are all considered "basic lands," under BM, and thusly they don't get checked by Price. This holds true for anything else which checks/targets nonbasics.
W
In regards to Pyro vs REB you're right. That oracle is essentially never relevant for me so I always forget that. Thanks for correcting me.

@ LordofthePit:
Hellbent creatures aren't auto-includes by any means. Yea, before Lord of SP/Moltensteel/Lodestone were printed Hellbent was the only way to go, but to be honest for the investments you make in both creatures I consider them subpar to our other options. Sometimes I honestly like being able to hold on to lock pieces, or extra creatures, when I consider the opponent about to drop a bomb/board sweep.

As for Flametongue Kavu The issue with him is that by himself hes just a vanilla 4/2 which means he can't kill a majority of problem "beasties." His ability, while 4 damage is nothing to snuff at, REQUIRES a target, meaning if hes the only creature or if your opponent has no creatures you have to target something of yours which is troublesome.

In regards to Moltensteel Dragon pretty much every DS, I believe, has realized his power. He is what replaces the Rakdos. 4 life is very reasonable, he costs 4 colorless so he can be cast off 2 sol lands so its that much easier to accel him out than Rakdos and unlke Rakdos he only requires that initial investment. Honestly you could run 4 of him (I am) and you'd still be fine.

For removal Umezawa's Jitte is probably the best imo.

Revoker pretty much needs to be a 4-of, MD or SB dependant on your meta.

I gotta go. I'm sure someone else can answer any other questions, otherwise I'll be back and give a better in depth analysis later.

Forlorn Egoist

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ForlornEgoist

@ Odysseus: BM DOES affect Price of Progress. The only thing BM can't affect is supertypes (Legendary/Artifact Lands) thus Tomb/City/Dual lands are all considered "basic lands," under BM, and thusly they don't get checked by Price. This holds true for anything else which checks/targets nonbasics.
W
In regards to Pyro vs REB you're right. That oracle is essentially never relevant for me so I always forget that. Thanks for correcting me.

---

You're welcome mate:)

As for Price of Progress, I only wish it was so..

"212.6e If an effect changes a land’s type to one or more of the basic land types, the land no longer has its old land type. It loses all abilities generated from its rules text and its old land types, and it gains the appropriate mana ability for each new basic land type. Note that this doesn’t remove any abilities that were granted to the land by other effects. Changing a land’s subtype doesn’t add or remove any types (such as creature) or supertypes (such as basic, legendary, and snow) the land may have. If a land gains one or more land types in addition to its own, it keeps its land types and rules text, and it gains the new land types and mana abilities.


212.6f Any land with the supertype “basic” is a basic land. Any land that doesn’t have this supertype is a nonbasic land."

When you say "The only thing BM can't affect is supertypes...", you do realise that "Basic" is a supertype.
Artifact Lands have 2 types: Artifact and Land. Artifact isn't a supertype. "Non-basic" is considered the...supertype here (but it's not really a supertype).

So essentially, what does Blood Moon do to a Great Furnace? The answer is "almost nothing". GF doesn't have a supertype (Snow, Legendary or Basic) so it's non-basic. That doesn't change. Artifact and Land are both types. They also don't change under BM.
The only thing that changes after the Moon effect is that GF becomes a Mountain. Even though it had the "Tap:Add 1 RED MANA to your mana pool." ability before the Moon, it wasn't a Mountain. (So, I guess you can't even fetch it with fetchlands...)
PoP will still cause you to suffer 2 extra damage either way, and your Furnace can be disenchanted just as well as it counts for your Metalcraft, Moon or no Moon.

Also check the table on:
http://wiki.mtgsalvation.com/article/Supertype

Regards my friend:)

@ Odysseus: Ah. Thank you for citing rules for this matter. I guess I opted to go with the blatant "nonbasics become basics," oracle texting with PoP's "Deal 2 damage for each nonbasic." I knew how it interacted with Artifact Lands, but I swore that otherwise I was correct.

Huh. I guess that last tournament I won wasn't really so as I won based on the argument that my assumption was correct (I was against UR delver and a PoP woulda knocked me down to 1 life, within bolt range that he had in hand).

Thanks again, Odysseus, for keeping me well-informed. ;)

Forlorn Egoist

@ForlornEgoist - What about Steel Hellkite have you tested him in your artifact build? He has synergy being an artifact, doesn't "hurt" as much to cast as MoltenSteel Dragon and the built in "Powder Keg" ability can help sweep a lot of trouble permanents, mostly enchantments that we can have problems interacting with. Just a thought.

Also I have been testing Urabrask the Hidden as a one of either MD or SB, I will post more about that soon.

@ Steel Hellkite:

The primary issue I have with Hellkite is, quite obviously, the 6cc. Even with accelerants this deck has long since established that 5cc is generally the highest the deck should go. Honestly the only reason Moltensteel made the cut was because of the 2 Phyrexian cost (which even now I find myself consistently paying 2-4 to cast him). 6 is a hefty investment to make even under the best of circumstance. Take note that I haven't tested him out in my current build. I tried him out way back when I was transitioning out of hellbent and at that time he was nearly impossible to cast. Since I've added no new accelerants I very much doubt I'll notice any change in his playability but I'm willing to test it out. For the very fact that his cost won't get compounded by Lodestone may at the very least make me consider throwing him in my Akroma-flex spot.

Out of curiosity, which enchantments are you worried about?
Deed is really only run in Rock and Landstill, neither of which are prevalent or entirely difficult MU's for us, Humility/Moat/Solitary Confinement are quite easily answered by Anarchy, and as Enchantress is really the only deck running problematic enchantments, beyond the above mentioned our 3sphere/Golem/CotV already do a pretty nice job of slowing them down.

Forlorn Egoist

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ForlornEgoist

@ Steel Hellkite:Out of curiosity, which enchantments are you worried about?
Deed is really only run in Rock and Landstill, neither of which are prevalent or entirely difficult MU's for us, Humility/Moat/Solitary Confinement are quite easily answered by Anarchy, and as Enchantress is really the only deck running problematic enchantments, beyond the above mentioned our 3sphere/Golem/CotV already do a pretty nice job of slowing them down.

Forlorn Egoist

---

Good Points on Hellkite, it gives me something to think about. As for the Enchantments it was really more or less the fact that in Red we have very few ways to interact with those types of permanents outside of getting our lock down or disrupting their mana base but right there that should be enough.
I also thought that having the ability to sweep the board may free up space in the SB once dedicated to Powder Keg and Pyroclasm type effects.

Again you've given me something to chew on and the truth is I need to test more, I am just starting to get serious again and this is the first deck I have picked up.

With the prevalence of Maverick and Lingering Souls, perhaps Sulfur Elemental deserves another look?

I've been pondering a list like this for a while:

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Chrome Mox
4x Trinisphere
3x Umezawa's Jitte

4x Gathan Raiders
4x Magus of the Moon
4x Rakdos Pit Dragon
4x Simian Spirit Guide
3x Mountain Yeti
3x Taurean Mauler

4x Blood Moon

4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
11x Mountain

Sideboard:
4x Anarchy
4x Phyrexian Revoker
3x Ratchet Bomb
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Relic of Progenitus

The theory here is that we don't like Arc-Slogger because he costs too much and mucks with the deck's card selection by forcing the inclusion of Seething Song. So, by removing Arc-Slogger and Seething Song, we free up 7 slots for other cards that are cheaper and can let us be more aggressive. My list before was also running LoSP still, so I cut those too as we no longer have Seething Song to Level him up super fast. That gave me 10 slots to work with. To replace Slogger's removal ability I included Umezawa's Jitte, which can also be a very aggressive card if we need it to be. Mountain Yeti has Pro-White, which seems good against Maverick, and Mountainwalk, which is good with our moon effects. Tauren Mauler is a card that I think is underplayed by us right now. Then I added a single Mountain to bring us to 11 to try and shore up that mana loss from cutting Seething Song. The sideboard is pretty standard. Let me know what you think.

@ Wereodile:

If you're looking to resolve issues within your current meta I can certainly make suggestions, however I'm looking more at unknown metas/problem MU's/decks-to-expect at SCG/GP/Misc. Legacy events. The recent T8 in Indianapolis had 2 Mavericks, 1 Dredge, 1 Solidarity, 2 UW Stoneblade, 1 UR Delver, 1 Canadian Threshold. Frankly in the metas I've seen at least spread around my own area Maverick/Delver/UW Stoneblade have been rather prevalent, and as far as combo I've been seeing more and more Solidarity than anything else. Honestly, at this moment the meta has shifted away from decks which would warrant board sweeps like Pyroclasm/Firespout/Powder Keg/Ratchet Bomb. I, honestly, took out my Bombs from the SB nearly 6 months ago and haven't been punished for it thus far. Truthfully the average meta in its current form is more reliant on equipment/1-2 efficient beaters with spell back up than it does a swarm of tokens/creatures, and those somewhat more annoying creatures somewhat get resolved with the next suggestion.

@ heroicraptor:

Sulfur Elemental actually sounds like quite a legitimate card to consider once again for our deck. Part of the reason I've been so optimistic for Etched Champion is its ability to get around Mom and deal with KotR/Equipped Creatures, but the Elemental is a great alternative for people not running the artifact build like I am. Flash/Split Second essentially means it auto-resolves + means you don't have to eat up your own turn to cast it. Kills off Mom and Tokens via Lingering Souls which both are highely relevant, Mom moreso, in the Maverick MU. I never actually found need to use the Elemental myself as before these recent sets I never played DS when the meta was rampant with KotR-decks however perhaps someone else can provide experience with the card.

EDIT: @ Zuppon:

Sorry, I was typing a reply in the box and it appears you made a post before I finished mine, so I only just now saw your list.

Your list is rather standard for a Hellbent list (ah, the good ol' days) but I do have a few suggestions. Firstly, drop the Rakdos Pit Dragon. I know all about the amazing blow-outs of your opponent where you can Double Strike for 10-12+ however those rare instances don't make up for his inherent weaknesses. Firstly, 2RR is annoying to cast, particularly when 1/2 your mana base is Sol lands. Secondly, due to how mana intensive he is to make him something worthwhile you need to, on average, save RR to give him flying and/or invest several additional R to firebreathe him to a level that can kill creatures (this investment is especially heavy with all the static buffs from the equipment-heavy meta). What this means is that, pending you don't have Hellbent you're using up mana that could otherwise go towards giving you it. The final and perhaps most relevant weakness is his 3/3 body. Maverick and UR Delver are the DTB at the moment. Maverick has Mom/Equipment/Exalted via Hierarch/Qasali, so even in the worst of circumstance they can always trade with your RPD. UR delver can either sac a Delver, or use burn/Snapcaster recursion to kill of your RPD with ease. In either MU your RPD does little to affect the game.
Moltensteel Dragon, however, is the exact same cost (at 4cc pending you pay Phyrexian which I almost always do), is a 4/4 so he sits above burn, can be cast off 2 Sol lands, and has Flying which means after that initial investment you can start casting other threats. I know, that 4 life can be scary at times, but when you're not relying on mana everytime to make him good he becomes well worth the life.

Taurean Mauler

Works good for non-Song, low curve builds like your own as he fits nicely at a low curve and can get stupid big if cast early, however he takes a great deal of turns to become a threat. Maverick Mom/Maze both of which negate him as an offensive/defensive creature, and while hes slightly more relevant against UR Delver, they have stupid redundancy for counters/burn.

@ x8 Moon:

This actually makes some sense in your build as because you don't need to rely so heavily on Sol lands you can abuse their power more. However, as I said in my rather long post just above, the meta as it stands doesn't get punished that heavily by Moons. Yea, Dredge does, which is great, but Maverick/UW Stoneblade/UR Delver all have a decent number of basics to rely on, Delver only needs 1-2 U/1 R source to play the entire deck and Maverick has Birds/Hierarch to rely on with Solidarity just laughing that you wasted a turn casting Moon. Ultimately, Moon just isn't devastating.

@ No Seething Song

I've playtested/Meta-ed/debated with NecroYawgmoth long and hard and, although a Songless build is intriguing, thusly I've not seen it have any sort of success. Dragon Stompy's power comes in the early game. We use our stupid-powerful acceleration (SOL/Mox/SSG/Song) to drop several lock pieces/threats and attempt to win the game asap. Our goal isn't to take it to the mid-late game. We want to win now! We have no late game plans. No grandios board sweep, no amazing cantrips, we actually have a higher loss rate the longer the game progresses. Taking out acceleration which makes 5cc cards reasonable only hurts you in the long run, vis-a-vie my next point.

@ Batterskull

This is one of the most relevant cards for our deck as it recovers life loss, lets any creature, even SSG/Magus, become annoying threats, as well as providing said creature with Vigilance. Although this excels at being a mid-late game card (which I just argued against above) having Songs means you can drop this all-the-more earlier where it can be especially punishing.

@ Mountain Yeti

Good chap. Amazing card against Maverick. Well played. Now if we could just get some equipment on him... :D

@ Gathan Raiders

Fits nicely into your mana curve, but really, what're you expecting to accomplish with a 3/3-5/5 thats dependant on you throwing away every card you have in your hand? With equipment now at the forefront hes not going to be killing anything anytime soon and, although he fits at that nice 3 curve, tbh since he provides no utility hes just deadweight.

I realize you're trying to return DS to its roots and make it more efficient when it comes to the mana curve but DS's primary strength comes from just that: abusing acceleration other decks can't particularly use, and using said acceleration to make otherwise bad cards insanely powerful. By removing acceleration, you're crippling the decks power, and by using creatures like RPD/Gathan which aren't fixed to dealing with equipment you're essentially tying one hand behind your back. I don't want to keep you from exploring you're own particular take on DS, however even with Yeti/Mauler you're fighting an uphill battle against the current meta.

If you're set on this list, here are my suggestions in keeping with your Songless plan:

-4 RPD
-4 Gathan
-1/2 Blood Moon

+4 Moltensteel
+ 1/2/3 Manriki-Gusari
+3-4 Lord of SP

The Lord, while still annoyingly intensive, at least becomes a perma 6/6 after the investment with late-gate utility if you level him. The Manriki will enable you to essentially negate the equipment threat of your opponents. In fact, if you are seriously attached to the RPD you could even just run Manriki's with him as the Manriki does give a +1/+2 buff.

Well, hope that helps.

Forlorn Egoist

Sulfur Elemental seems bad to me. It pumps and doesn't kill any creature that has a toughness greater than 2. Maybe it should be used mainly for an alpha strike to take out 1 toughness defenders like Mother and Thalia.

Now that I think of it, did anyone ever test Hero of Oxid Ridge?

Hey, Zuppon, I just edited my post responding to your list, check it out.

The problem with Hero of Oxid Ridge is that our problem white creatures are KotR/Mom/Stoneforge. Once any creature has equipment on it it becomes a viable blocker, thus negating Hero.

Forlorn Egoist

Ok. I just saw your post. I'm gonna try and replace the Pit Dragons with Moltensteels and the Raiders with LoSPs. It never really occurred to me that those 2 cards wouldn't be necessary.:smile: Manriki seems like a SB card, though, and I'd rather just run Jitte for the added utility it offers. I also still want to see if DS can be good without Seething Song. I think that just having 4 creatures in its place would be better to try and flood the field with dudes rather than throw some guy out really fast. If we focus on having bigger creatures than our opponents, then I think that speed would be less necessary.

Also, on the note of Sulfur Elemental, if we run Anarchy in the board, wouldn't that just be better?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zupponn

...I also still want to see if DS can be good without Seething Song. I think that just having 4 creatures in its place would be better to try and flood the field with dudes rather than throw some guy out really fast. If we focus on having bigger creatures than our opponents, then I think that speed would be less necessary.

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Don't necessarily throw some one guy out really fast with your song. Throw 2 things. Chalice - Trini. (Trini always second:)) Chalice - Mauler. Moon - chalice. Kargan - Trini. Magus - Jitte.

If the opponent counters the song, it is the same as countering one of your 4 extra threats. If he doesn't...well guess what: double - trouble. And one or two rounds earlier, of course.

That's how I play Song. I never do the "ramp out a turn one Slogger" thing, or play a single thing with Song, unless I can't do otherwise, or if one or two lockpieces have already resolved.

Remember Force of Will's blue card discard alternative cost...would you say that is really card disadvantage? No, you wouldn't. Same with Song I guess..

I think the only difference here is that we (the red guys) play actively (dust in the face and punch same turn), and the blue guys play reactively (counter out of nowhere).

Cut it and test...only by testing did I realise the difference. And if you find a better solution, please tell me asap:D There's a tournament here on Saturday.

But one thing is for certain: Speed is always good, whether you play vs aggro or control or combo.

I made a third list. Also non hell-bent. I call it "the reliable" list. It excludes the hellbent guys, the werewolves and the Maulers. Creatures that you can't predict how large they will be.
This list includes lots of board control - damage to the opponent:

2 Umezawa's Jitte,

3 Arc-Sloggers and
2 Jaya Ballard.

The rest of my 21 creatures are:

the 4 Magus and 4 SSG,
2 Revokers (tired of them being extra useful on half of the matches and on the rest doing nothing),
1 Moltensteel Dragon (don't want to see him more than once),
2 Kargan Dragonlord,
3 Lords of Shatterskull Pass

8 Moons total main and 3 Trinis, which may change to 7 -4.

Sideboard:

1 Moon/Trini
2 Phyrexian Revokers
3 Faerie Macabre
1 Tormod's Crypt
4 Ratchet Bomb
1 Anarchy
3 Red Elemental Blast

I wonder how good would Boldwyr Heavyweights be (SB of course) against burn, combo, or decks with weenies.
Quite a shitty choice vs many decks with large or "tricky" threats, but I'm always trying to think of ways to make DS deal damage even faster (and even more reliably).

Taking some suggestions and ideas from here, I've been running this list on MTGO with some good success:

4x Mountain Yeti
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Lord of Shatterskull Pass
4x Magus of the Moon
3x Moltensteel Dragon
2x Hellrider

4x Umezawa's Jitte
4x Trinisphere
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Chrome Mox
4x Blood Moon

4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
11x Mountain

Sideboard:
4x Anarchy
4x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Pyrokinesis
3x Manriki-Gusari

Yeti and Jitte have outperformed my expectations and I upped them from 3 to 4 because of it. LoSP is what he's always been: a solid beater who's oftentimes bigger than Goyf. Moltensteel, like 0dysseus said, is good, but worse in multiples, so I pulled one out, leaving 3. I put Manriki in the SB because the deck can have trouble against Stoneblade and Batterskull in particular. I also want to test Hellrider as he seems like a really good card for this deck, being a 3/3 hasty creature that hits for 4 and gives us a little reach. I haven't actually played him yet, but there have been times that I have wanted a hasty dude to come out, grab a Jitte and swing to dodge removal and get Jitte online. Also, Mauler turned out to be unreliable, just like 0dysseus said, so he got the axe.

Hellrider seems like he will attack only to sacrifice himself and shock the opponent. Aaah...If, only if that damage was dealt to creatures, he'd be a LOT better.

I'd suggest: -2 Hellrider, +2 Kargan Dragonlord.
You surely can support them with your 8 Moons!

I like your "always have a Jitte at hand" idea. Of course a single Needle can take them all out, but the opponent won't know you dedicated 4 slots on Jitte, so he might name Lord, or Moltensteel. And there's always chalice at 1 of course, if you play first.

But tbh, how many people really SB in Needle/Revoker against us? I don't think that many people realize just how heavily our deck can sometimes rely on said equipment, and since Dragon Stompy is rarely played most people aren't even away of what to name. Yea, they might know about Kargan or Shatterskull after we play them G1, but realistically its assumed we'll essentially never get to their ultimates so the opponent is just looking at another creature that dies to every piece of removal or can be answered by a bigger threat of their own.
I don't think I've ever seen someone SB in Needle/Revoker against me. oO

I definitely approve of the x4 Jitte. I myself am running 3 and I absolutely love to see them every game. Its the best piece of removal for our deck, and making our SSG/Magus into threats is always nice, especially since I myself am much less reliant on them.

Forlorn Egoist