[Primer/Deck] Burn

Against reamimator, or even dredge I take Faerie Macabre, one of the best ways I've heard to describe burn sideboarding strategy is: 'I don't need to lock my opponent out, I just need them to stumble'. This is very true because we have a pretty fast, and consistent clock, when I do lose with burn I'm usually one turn, or one bolt short. I like Macabre because it can't be countered which matters soo much against reanimator, or blue based combo, its free, thus not taxing on my mana, and tempo, and it cant be discarded by duress.

Crypt would be my second choice, especially against dredge, but I've lost games where reanimator player force of will'ed my crypt and comboed of in two turns.

I've played Leylines before, and dredge is the only deck that it totally hose, except they can chain of vapor it eot, and discard it or just let it rot in your hand, while they eat you alive. So its not an auto win.

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Originally Posted by sirlaser

Thank you! Follow up question - if you had a choice, then, between:

Tormod's Crypt
Relic of Progenitus
Grafdigger's Cage

Which one would you run? Are there more suitable options than these three?

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Of those three options I would run Tormod's Crypt. Honestly though I'm not a fan of any of those. My GY hate of choice is Faerie Macabre. It's 0 mana, instant, the play isn't telegraphed, and it can only be countered by Stifle.

A couple weeks back I had the following play happen on turn 1 of the game against Dredge, I was on the play:
T1 - Cephalid Colosseum, Lion's Eye Diamond
EoT - Crack LED for 3 blue, discard hand, hit threshold, Activate Colosseum.

Because I had the Faerie, in response I was able to exile his two dredgers and effectively waste his hand/land. A Tormod's Crypt would have prevented him from ever going for it, a Relic would have required I keep mana up, and the Cage would have done nothing. Instead I got a great exchange out of it and went on to win that game.

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Originally Posted by Dr. No Face

Am I the only one that runs Swiftspear anymore? Whenever I see a burn list do well, it seems to run 11 creatures, 4 being goblin guide, 4 being eidolon, and 3 being lavamancers.

I mean, I guess 1 damage on turn 1 isn't good, but it helps close the game out quickly by being bigger for the other 3 turns they are alive typically.

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I still run Swiftspear. I haven't played Burn in probably a month but the last time I played it, it was great. 1 damage on turn 1 isn't great but Lavamancer is 0 damage on turn 1 so I don't see that as much of an argument. On turn 2 if you have fuel Lavamancer is 2 damage compared to Swiftspears 2-3. I play Lavamancer too but he's not there for the damage, I already have enough of that. He's there to let my other guys get in without me having to invest cards.

Here's my current list. A lot here don't seem to like my lists but I don't really know what to say, they work very well for me against a field of good players (a couple have won Opens, one has a PT top 8). I may rethink things and add Atarka's Command. I need to ponder it a bit, it's almost a strictly better Skullcrack but it means fetching the green in every game I want it and if I'm going that route I have trouble not just going black for Tyrant's Choice instead. On the other hand I love the idea of being able to convert a Skullcrack into 4-5 damage when it's otherwise just being a bad Incinerate. I would like to work some Vexing Shushers into the board but I can't find room, fortunately Miracles doesn't really show up much. I never feel like that match is hopeless but so much of it comes down to sequencing and anticipating what the Miracles player thinks you're going to do.


//Land 19
1 Arid Mesa
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scalding Tarn
9 Mountain
1 Taiga

//Creatures 13
4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
1 Grim Lavamancer

//Spells 28
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress
1 Skullcrack
3 Searing Blaze
3 Rift Bolt
2 Collateral Damage
3 Sulfuric Vortex

//Sideboard 15
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Skullcrack
2 Destructive Revelry
2 Volcanic Fallout
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Grim Lavamancer

It's interesting to see Skullcrack. I've seen one other list run it and I feel it's a nice little surprise. I haven't run it in Legacy, but in Modern its a beating.

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Originally Posted by Krimson Viper

It's interesting to see Skullcrack. I've seen one other list run it and I feel it's a nice little surprise. I haven't run it in Legacy, but in Modern its a beating.

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I hate Skullcrack but I like being able to stop lifegain. Modern has more lifegain than Legacy has but a bit of incremental value from DRS or a Batterskull can really creates some problems since the mana is so much more pain free. Lifelinkers are part of the reason I use Collateral Damage as well, that card lets me swing into something like Batterskull or Griselbrand and push damage through when I ordinarily wouldn't be to do a thing.

When Skullcrack is good it's completely invaluable and is worth 5-7 damage on it's own when you include the prevented life. When it's bad though it's worse than Incinerate so it's a very high variance card. That's part of what I like about Atarka's Command, the variance is a whole lot smaller. Of course the need for RG is a big issue because it makes you vulnerable to Wasteland and makes your Price of Progress worse. The card is for sure going to be a staple in Modern Burn, and while it's less good in Legacy I think it still merits some testing. It may mean going up to 2 Taiga's for some redundancy.

After some conversation at the shop I play at I was asked to write an article about how I play burn. Check it out. http://bccomix.com/playing-the-game-...ameron-ramsay/

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Originally Posted by bigwerdz

After some conversation at the shop I play at I was asked to write an article about how I play burn. Check it out. http://bccomix.com/playing-the-game-...ameron-ramsay/

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What is Sacred Foundry for? Why Tormod's Crypt over Faerie Macabre in sideboard?

Well that sacred foundry was supposed to be an arid mesa. That slipped through editing. I think crypt is just better then faerie macabre. It has more applications in more match ups. I played both for a long time and just like crypt better.

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Originally Posted by bigwerdz

Well that sacred foundry was supposed to be an arid mesa. That slipped through editing. I think crypt is just better then faerie macabre. It has more applications in more match ups. I played both for a long time and just like crypt better.

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What other matchups do you bring it in besides Reanimator and Tin Fins (which both can win turn one, while you sit with your crypt in hand)?

I think bringing it in vs goyf decks is just bad. They will refill their gy really fast. I would rather have a burn spell, or if I would be forced to play something that is not in the nature of burn, then Ensnaring Bridge, which keeps all their creatures in check (except Deathrite).

Yeah you just beat goyf decks naturally. I just bring crypt in against reanimator, tinfins, dredge, and past in flames storm. Yeah those decks CAN go off turn one but most times they don't. If they have the nuts they have the nuts. I've found that typically all I need to do is purge the yard once and can win before they rebuild. In my experience crypt has wider range and I like it better. If I couldn't play crypt I think macabre is the next best option.

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Originally Posted by bigwerdz

Yeah you just beat goyf decks naturally. I just bring crypt in against reanimator, tinfins, dredge, and past in flames storm. Yeah those decks CAN go off turn one but most times they don't. If they have the nuts they have the nuts. I've found that typically all I need to do is purge the yard once and can win before they rebuild. In my experience crypt has wider range and I like it better. If I couldn't play crypt I think macabre is the next best option.

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All the decks you mention doesn't need the full gy, just some key cards. Then why not just use Macabre? It can't be duressed, destroyed, countered, it's free and instant. What is the wider range? If you are going to write an article about burn, then please don't misinform newbeginners to play bad cards.

Hahaha is that how this works now? Disagreeing with you is misinforming new players? Both cards have their merit. Exiling 2 cards often isn't enough against dredge or storm. Both cards can fall short against reanimator if they let the effect resolve and entomb again before their exhume resolves. As far as tinfins is concerned I believe it's share of the meta is too small to give much sway in my graveyard hate choices. And as far as the rest of the list goes for anyone that cares I have made changes since that open. I went up to 10 fetches 10 mountains and replaced the pyroblasts with null rods.

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Originally Posted by echofish

All the decks you mention doesn't need the full gy, just some key cards. Then why not just use Macabre? It can't be duressed, destroyed, countered, it's free and instant. What is the wider range? If you are going to write an article about burn, then please don't misinform newbeginners to play bad cards.

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There are multiple ways to build a Burn deck and the only way Burn can be built incorrectly is by adding another color. If you're behind the board, Faerie doesn't work very well against Reanimator or Dredge. You do need to mull to your hate cards against these decks. If you mull to five and there's still no hate card, you're going to need to keep your hand regardless because going any further means you have a higher rate of loss at that point. From this stand point, suggesting Faerie Macabre is suggesting a bad card.

Storm will go off from more than just a couple of cards being exiled from their graveyard, as well. Faerie, Crypt, Relic, Surgical are all answers to graveyard decks and all have separate effects with pros and cons.

As for the article, the only thing that really stuck out to me if you were looking for constructive criticism is the line, "There are no Monastery Swiftspears because, contrary to popular belief, they are bad." You should expand on that instead of just leaving off on a cliffhanger like that.

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Originally Posted by echofish

If you are going to write an article about burn, then please don't misinform new beginners to play bad cards.

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Ease on up there, cowboy!

Opinions are just that, opinions. You may not agree with those opinions but to use the words "misinform" and "bad" because you disagree with a concept is a tad, um, coarse. We're not talking hard facts about the economy here... we're simply spouting sh*t about a silly card game. But then again, if you can prove to me that Tormod's Crypt is a bad card, then I'm with you all the way ;-)

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Originally Posted by Krimson Viper

There are multiple ways to build a Burn deck and the only way Burn can be built incorrectly is by adding another color.

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Not since the Elf Shaman, IMO.

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Originally Posted by bigwerdz

Hahaha is that how this works now? Disagreeing with you is misinforming new players? Both cards have their merit. Exiling 2 cards often isn't enough against dredge or storm. Both cards can fall short against reanimator if they let the effect resolve and entomb again before their exhume resolves. As far as tinfins is concerned I believe it's share of the meta is too small to give much sway in my graveyard hate choices. And as far as the rest of the list goes for anyone that cares I have made changes since that open. I went up to 10 fetches 10 mountains and replaced the pyroblasts with null rods.

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As you said yourself "I've found that typically all I need to do is purge the yard once and can win before they rebuild." This is the key. Usually exiling that one griselbrand gives you enough time. Also against dredge, you don't need to exile the whole gy. Removing some bridges, Ichorids, Dread Return or grave trolls usually gives you enough time to finish the job.

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Originally Posted by Krimson Viper

There are multiple ways to build a Burn deck and the only way Burn can be built incorrectly is by adding another color. If you're behind the board, Faerie doesn't work very well against Reanimator or Dredge. You do need to mull to your hate cards against these decks. If you mull to five and there's still no hate card, you're going to need to keep your hand regardless because going any further means you have a higher rate of loss at that point. From this stand point, suggesting Faerie Macabre is suggesting a bad card.

Storm will go off from more than just a couple of cards being exiled from their graveyard, as well. Faerie, Crypt, Relic, Surgical are all answers to graveyard decks and all have separate effects with pros and cons.

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If you are behind the board vs Reaminator? Like when you are staring at a griselbrand? Then Crypt will save you? How can mulling to 5 and don't finding any gy hate suggest that suggestion Faerie is a bad suggestion? Are you having games vs Reanimator where they have 10 fatties in gy and waiting to topdeck a reanimate spell?

You are rarely heavily behind vs dredge. It's a race, but yeah here crypt does a better job, but Faerie usually gives you enough time to finish the job if you remove the key cards. Same vs Storm. There are key cards to remove. If you think you need to remove their whole gy, then you obviously have not played vs Storm, or just not payed attention. And besides, Pillar effects is better in that matchup, because they can go off fine without the gy. I bring in 2 Pyrostatic Pillar to get 6 "eidolons". They will most def name Eidolon with Therapy and then I can play Pillar for the win.

@krimsonviper
I appreciate the criticism. I didn't go in detail about too many of the cards on the list because that isn't what I wanted to write about. Originally I didn't even have a list in the article lol. I've never done anything like this before so I'm happy with how it turned out. Just wanted to say how using the stereotypes people have of burn players can be an advantage.

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Originally Posted by LOLWut

Not since the Elf Shaman, IMO.

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I've heard this before, but you can look at DRS and say he's a replacement for Grim. Grim doesn't allow you to have him removed and then get Wastelanded and now you have no lands or stuck on one for an absurd amount of time. Burn wants to play with two lands all the time until you find Vortex. Why would you want DRS any way? To get passed a Leyline? Not a lot of decks run that card and the decks that do won't let you play magic or is a fast combo deck and you'll die before you finish them. Accelerate your game plan with a turn two Vortex? That's awesome, but you only run two or three of those. Nine damage on turn two is good too, but how many times have you lost before you get to live that dream?

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Originally Posted by echofish

As you said yourself "I've found that typically all I need to do is purge the yard once and can win before they rebuild." This is the key. Usually exiling that one griselbrand gives you enough time. Also against dredge, you don't need to exile the whole gy. Removing some bridges, Ichorids, Dread Return or grave trolls usually gives you enough time to finish the job.



If you are behind the board vs Reaminator? Like when you are staring at a griselbrand? Then Crypt will save you? How can mulling to 5 and don't finding any gy hate suggest that suggestion Faerie is a bad suggestion? Are you having games vs Reanimator where they have 10 fatties in gy and waiting to topdeck a reanimate spell?

You are rarely heavily behind vs dredge. It's a race, but yeah here crypt does a better job, but Faerie usually gives you enough time to finish the job if you remove the key cards. Same vs Storm. There are key cards to remove. If you think you need to remove their whole gy, then you obviously have not played vs Storm, or just not payed attention. And besides, Pillar effects is better in that matchup, because they can go off fine without the gy. I bring in 2 Pyrostatic Pillar to get 6 "eidolons". They will most def name Eidolon with Therapy and then I can play Pillar for the win.

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I have actually been in games where there are three or more fatties in the grave waiting to find a reanimation spell after a Careful Study or two. Have you not been in games where both decks are stalling and their top deck is better than yours, but you have an exile entire grave card in play?

As for my last sentence in that paragraph, that was a sum of everything I had said within that paragraph. It can't be used to be singled out like that and expect it to make a real argument, neither for or against.

Sure you can put Pyrostatic Pillar in because that how you have built your board for your meta. What about everyone else's meta? How about when the Storm play Duresses you turn one, takes Pillar and Cabal's away your Eidolon next turn? The best place for either of those spells is at the top of your deck until you can play it and even then it can be bounced before the combo player goes off.

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Originally Posted by bigwerdz

@krimsonviper
I appreciate the criticism. I didn't go in detail about too many of the cards on the list because that isn't what I wanted to write about. Originally I didn't even have a list in the article lol. I've never done anything like this before so I'm happy with how it turned out. Just wanted to say how using the stereotypes people have of burn players can be an advantage.

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You're welcome.

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Originally Posted by Krimson Viper

There are multiple ways to build a Burn deck and the only way Burn can be built incorrectly is by adding another color.

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What about pre-Cruise ban in Legacy? Throw in 1 Volcanic Island and 3 Treasure Cruise? (Just curious about what people generally think; I understand this post doesn't help the current or future development of Burn)

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Originally Posted by Krimson Viper

I've heard this before, but you can look at DRS and say he's a replacement for Grim. Grim doesn't allow you to have him removed and then get Wastelanded and now you have no lands or stuck on one for an absurd amount of time. Burn wants to play with two lands all the time until you find Vortex. Why would you want DRS any way? To get passed a Leyline? Not a lot of decks run that card and the decks that do won't let you play magic or is a fast combo deck and you'll die before you finish them. Accelerate your game plan with a turn two Vortex? That's awesome, but you only run two or three of those. Nine damage on turn two is good too, but how many times have you lost before you get to live that dream?

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Have you tested the Deathrite splash? I know a number of people who've tested against and with it in Burn, and all who actually put in games think it's superior to Lavamancer. It really is perfect for the deck. DRS contributing to mana issues are rarely an issue when played correctly, so the only real downside is not hitting creatures, which is mitigated by the fact that almost the rest of the deck does. Apart from the few decks that are elite at mana denial like D&T, they should usually be saving those Wastelands for your Price of Progress anyway. Getting the same 2 damage a turn (which is what Lavamancer is for at its core. Its versatility can't be understated, and burning creatures is a genuine plus, but if the main issue was creatures, people might just play a set of Searing Bloods alongside that set of Searing Blazes), while accelerating, eating Griselbrands, PiF fuel and all kinds of things, and all the rest (incl. a bunch of minor things like evading Energy Field/Leyline and gaining life that add up to a lot) makes me say that it's actually Lavamancer that can't be a replacement for DRS. It's not a slight on Lavamancer, which is a fine choice, but the DRS splash is very, very good.

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Originally Posted by LOLWut

Have you tested the Deathrite splash? I know a number of people who've tested against and with it in Burn, and all who actually put in games think it's superior to Lavamancer. It really is perfect for the deck. DRS contributing to mana issues are rarely an issue when played correctly, so the only real downside is not hitting creatures, which is mitigated by the fact that almost the rest of the deck does. Apart from the few decks that are elite at mana denial like D&T, they should usually be saving those Wastelands for your Price of Progress anyway. Getting the same 2 damage a turn (which is what Lavamancer is for at its core. Its versatility can't be understated, and burning creatures is a genuine plus, but if the main issue was creatures, people might just play a set of Searing Bloods alongside that set of Searing Blazes), while accelerating, eating Griselbrands, PiF fuel and all kinds of things, and all the rest (incl. a bunch of minor things like evading Energy Field/Leyline and gaining life that add up to a lot) makes me say that it's actually Lavamancer that can't be a replacement for DRS. It's not a slight on Lavamancer, which is a fine choice, but the DRS splash is very, very good.

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I tried to think of a way to respond without sounding like a dick.

I'll let you and others test this until there's a winning list with it in a forty man or more tournament.

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Originally Posted by sirlaser

What about pre-Cruise ban in Legacy? Throw in 1 Volcanic Island and 3 Treasure Cruise? (Just curious about what people generally think; I understand this post doesn't help the current or future development of Burn)

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Just before its ban I was thinking about running TC and always thought I should run it. It started to branch into UR Delver though. Getting Wasted was always a concern with running a Burn splash. During TC, you didn't really have to worry about it because Waste wasn't really around.