Chinese fakes

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Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer

Why? :tongue::laugh:
Seriously, if everything that ppl gather from the Czech version of your article are the results of tests, I guess you made good job for the community!


Bend test - FAILED
Water test – PASSED
Light test – FAILED
UV test – PASSED
Blue layer test – FAILED

Color differentiation:
http://www.cmus.cz/dnn/Portals/0/aut...i%20strana.jpg

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That's the most important I guess. I was also talking about recognizing them online/in person and some protective elements Wizards use on back of their cards (two white dots on the back etc). About some text differences, that they are softer than original cards. I also presented them to many people (both online and in person) and got some percentage if people recognize them. Online almost everybody failed, in person if they were unsleaved, everybody recognized they are fakes. They failed on almost everything. In the end, the overall summary would be they are completely harmless when doing trades in person with unsleeved cards. Unless you try to sell them to 10 y/o, nobody will bait on it.

However, they are perfectly able to be sold as originals online. Especially the low-end cards like Engineered Explosives etc. Truth is, majority of people don't really demand scans when buying $10 cards. I'd be carefull when buying on ebay, MKM, MOTL etc from now on.

Edit: the fact that they failed bend test (4th - 5th bend and they broke) is the most important. Even after the first bend, there appeared a very little crease. That would never happen with genuine card, so the verification is rather simple, for example if your eyes are bad and you can't focus on such things as 1mm white dots or different background color.

Oh and as someone had allready mentioned before - the corners are Alpha-ish and the overall card is like 0.02mm smaller (measured by a pro with some pro tools :-D)

They are glossier, the resolution of print is lower. Then there are some really specific things like that the whole card is printed as a bitmap by offset machines, whilst original cards have some parts printed as negative. But to see this you need a polygraphic magnifying glass.

Overall though, you would say that they can pass as real during casual play when sleeved?

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Originally Posted by HonorBasquiat

Overall though, you would say that they can pass as real during casual play when sleeved?

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Translation: Do you think I'll get caught if I use these in a tournament?

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Originally Posted by Mr.C

Translation: Do you think I'll get caught if I use these in a tournament?

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Haha, not really. I'm more of a casual player. I'm more curious if I can play with these at my LGS, some of the players there get a little bitchy about proxies.

I'm all for the fakes getting better. I have duals, and might lose money, but I don't really care. I just want to be able to play what I want when I want, with lots of players, and a wide variety of strategy. You don't get that by making the cards everybody needs increase in value to the point where only the rich get to join the game on a whim. Seriously, 2,000$ is easy for a family making 6-7-8 figures, it's not even a thought. But for a poor family living on the margin? Forget playing magic little jimmy, looks like your getting a job just to eat this week!

This is about the game being accessible to the poor, and i'm all for it. Fuck the Prince of Wales .

It's funny, people here are calling others here 'entitled' for wanting fair prices, saying 'well you gotta save up for this shit!', but this hypocrisy is almost royal. Fuck you! Money is depreciating in value, and the cards are increasing in value. You guys are the ones acting with a sense of entitlement.

"Oh I came first, Oh I saved up for mine."

Why don't we just turn magic into a country club with token poor kids who get to borrow extra decks from their wealthy 'friends', yeah that sounds swell. Oh yeah, and we'll make room for the lucky poor bastards who bought in early.

I am a player, and I wish the cards were much cheaper. It is baffling that people pay more than $50 for a single piece of cardboard.

That being said, Magic the Gathering is a collectible card game. I have friends that enjoy collecting and trading more than playing, and I see how this could freak them out. Why pay $50 for Karn Liberated, when you can pay 5 dollars for a copy that's virtually indistinguishable.

I kind of wish Wizards would release all the Modern staples with black borders and a new symbol but with different backs. Sort of like the tournament edition cards, but more passable.

I could see myself buying a lot of proxies for casual play, but I don't see this dramatically affecting the market to be honest. Certainly not until issues like alpha corners are fixed.

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Originally Posted by HonorBasquiat

Haha, not really. I'm more of a casual player. I'm more curious if I can play with these at my LGS, some of the players there get a little bitchy about proxies.

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these are perfect for the casual player, but it doesn't take much of trained eye to se they aren't the real thing (I just purchased 55 of these proxies....I dig them they are perfect for just using them as proxies to try out different decks ideas or whatever)..but they are ready for tourny play (they will at somepoint, as the quality and printing will get better certainly..but not yet)

Like another poster said I think Wotc may have to come up with sets of 'Tournament only Proxies' with a specific 'seal' or border etc.. to head this future problem off at the pass and keep the 'collector' market stable to some degree...as I don't think this is "If" anymore but 'When'...

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Originally Posted by HonorBasquiat

I want to say they pass the regular light test, but not the UV light test.

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Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer

UV test – PASSED

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So which one?

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Originally Posted by metelhead

these are perfect for the casual player, but it doesn't take much of trained eye to se they aren't the real thing (I just purchased 55 of these proxies....I dig them they are perfect for just using them as proxies to try out different decks ideas or whatever)..but they are ready for tourny play (they will at somepoint, as the quality and printing will get better certainly..but not yet)

Like another poster said I think Wotc may have to come up with sets of 'Tournament only Proxies' with a specific 'seal' or border etc.. to head this future problem off at the pass and keep the 'collector' market stable to some degree...as I don't think this is "If" anymore but 'When'...

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Do you feel they could pass in casual play as real cards sleeved to an unskeptical eye?

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Originally Posted by Higgs

So which one?

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The one where you hold the card up to the light and see the light filter though.

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Originally Posted by HonorBasquiat

Do you feel they could pass in casual play as real cards sleeved to an unskeptical eye?

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Of all the people in here, you seam the most willing to go and buy a ton of these. So forgive my bluntness but go seek your information elsewhere. While we do talk about the cards here, we will not help you in your endever to buy and use these cards. That's not what this thread is for.

I meant does it actually pass the UV test or not :) Those two accounts were contradictory.

It passes the UV test, but fails the "Hold up to a light source" test.

Do you have access to any counterfeits? From HonorBasquiat's post I understood the opposite.

Myself? No, but I read his article about it on cmus.

Light test - FAILED this test is to attach the card to a bright light source. The card should be slightly translucent and should appear regular blue veining. Test: Counterfeit vs Goblin Piledriver Goblin Piledriver original
Result: Original showed good translucency and beautiful blue veining. Forgery was almost opaque and blue veining was present very bland.

UV test - PASSED right cards should glow under UV light. With this test, I originally did not count, finally managed to get a UV lamp.
Test: Counterfeit Snapcaster Mage vs original Mirrodin Chalice of the Void Result: Both cards under UV light shone. This coincides with the first online test is what declares itself a company producing fakes.

The funny part is that Wizards could make loads of money if they printed a non-tournament legal Cube complete draft set (similiar to the MTGO Cube). Just make them distinguisable with new art/frame and a different border, e.g. a gold one.

Reprints that aren't tournament-legal are fair game under the Reserve List and it would bring some relaxation to the secondary market since casual players who play Cube/EDH don't have to buy the expensive staples fromt he secondary market.

That's frigging bad news as I'm still in the process of completing my P9 and I tend to hunt for online deals rather than going to large events and shopping around in booths. Bend test is out of the question for me and I find the light test unreliable because with old cards and different print runs (darker color vs lighter color) I always see some variation between the amount of light that passes and don't believe I can tell a fake from a different print if the difference isn't really obvious. I'd recently ordered an UV light but looks like it won't be any use to me. Last bastions; corners and rules text printing.

Dot patterns will be your friend.

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Originally Posted by HonorBasquiat

Haha, not really. I'm more of a casual player. I'm more curious if I can play with these at my LGS, some of the players there get a little bitchy about proxies.

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I hope the players at your LGS get a lot more than a little bitchy when they realize you are funding Chinese counterfeiters undermine the company that brought you magic in the first place.

If it is just proxies for casual play you want, why not just make some? You can make ones that look as good as those fakes in a sleeve for less than 20c a piece in supplies/ink if you dont care about the card feeling real or passing tests.

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Originally Posted by prateta

That's the most important I guess. I was also talking about recognizing them online/in person and some protective elements Wizards use on back of their cards (two white dots on the back etc). About some text differences, that they are softer than original cards. I also presented them to many people (both online and in person) and got some percentage if people recognize them. Online almost everybody failed, in person if they were unsleaved, everybody recognized they are fakes. They failed on almost everything. In the end, the overall summary would be they are completely harmless when doing trades in person with unsleeved cards. Unless you try to sell them to 10 y/o, nobody will bait on it.

However, they are perfectly able to be sold as originals online. Especially the low-end cards like Engineered Explosives etc. Truth is, majority of people don't really demand scans when buying $10 cards. I'd be carefull when buying on ebay, MKM, MOTL etc from now on.

Edit: the fact that they failed bend test (4th - 5th bend and they broke) is the most important. Even after the first bend, there appeared a very little crease. That would never happen with genuine card, so the verification is rather simple, for example if your eyes are bad and you can't focus on such things as 1mm white dots or different background color.

Oh and as someone had allready mentioned before - the corners are Alpha-ish and the overall card is like 0.02mm smaller (measured by a pro with some pro tools :-D)

They are glossier, the resolution of print is lower. Then there are some really specific things like that the whole card is printed as a bitmap by offset machines, whilst original cards have some parts printed as negative. But to see this you need a polygraphic magnifying glass.

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Yep, I was lazy to translate the longer texts, and one of them is the part on back sides. I thought you'll do it in future, so I saved myself some tiem. :)

I don't think they may easily pass online, unless of course this means "everything passes online". The amount of tricks that a scammer may do is endless (fake scans, w/e), but in the end it's about you opening the envelope and finding... fakes. How is this solved on the usual pages IDK, but I won't be afraid to use MKM, esp. when dealing with good sellers and better.

I'm curious about the bitmap and negative print thingy, I'm not sure I get: is it a matter of dry sheet offset or what?

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Originally Posted by metelhead

Like another poster said I think Wotc may have to come up with sets of 'Tournament only Proxies' with a specific 'seal' or border etc.. to head this future problem off at the pass and keep the 'collector' market stable to some degree...as I don't think this is "If" anymore but 'When'...

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These are called White Bordered Core Set Reprints. Alas, WotC are stupid, and they do them no more. Instead you get Omniscience.

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Originally Posted by Stephan/

First of all the pattern doesn't seem correct, but the major difference to a real card is that the characters are stamped onto the pattern -> thus they have sharp edges. Just poor fakes - nothing more.

Although I really don't understand why people are doing tests and stuff but are not able to show high resolution scans or magnifications.

Edit: same as here: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showp...0&postcount=19

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So what you are saying is: Real cards have sharper edges (letters) and on the wasteland fake the letters are printed within the dot pattern which leads to less sharp edges. Did i get you right?