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I’ve tried 2nd teeg. I lose to miracles and sneak and show about 50% of the time. The match ups are just tough when you play vs GOOD opponents. You are not going to turn the miracles match up in your favor without hurting in other areas. They have terminus and councils judgement. When they draw the right cards we lose.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirrislegend
All together terminus/snap/plow matches up great vs our deck. Hard to flip it in our favor.
Jailer is great and swings match ups In your favor. Miracles is about 50/50 but probabaly more like 60/40 in their favor if they are good playersQuote:
Originally Posted by ThediscoPower
that's enough to sell me. I'm trying out those jailers tonight! i am probably going to have to cut my second sylvan library, but i think it might be worth it.Quote:
Originally Posted by NEELEY
Hello everyone:
I have been following for a while this thread and appretiate your opinions on the deck. I have been a Maverick player for the time it has existed in Legacy since the GSZ addition, I think I know a lot of tricks with the deck although I am not the best player I could be. Still, I have achieved decent records in some 100-200+ people tournaments and, you won't believe, I have managed to win Miracles a few times without completely adapting the list. With this said, I would like to thank you all for your knowledge.
I am now in need of more advice with my list and sideboard decision making. I am going to play a big tournament in a few days (MKM Series Zaragoza) and want to be able to win at least a 40% of times I face Miracles, which I think will be an important part of the metagame, and a higher rate against Grixis control. Here I paste my list and some of the reasons I based my decisions on. Any help is welcome.
// 2 Artifact
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
// 27 Creature
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Mother of Runes (I prefer 3+Sylvan sk because of the GSZ possibility and summoning sickness)
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Scryb Ranger (MVP, it enables so many tricks I never side her out)
2 Sanctum Prelate (I have been playing 1 for a while, but it is again very good to lock Miracles, Grixis and others in the g1)
1 Renegade Rallier (some situations are circumstantial but normally reanimating a countered or destroyed Thalia, Gaddock, jitte or sideboard piece is game winning)
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Ramunap Excavator
1 Tireless Tracker
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
2 Knight of Autumn (I know Qasali is a decent 2 drop, but I normally save it to be able to destroy sth what makes it cost 3 anyway. KoA is more versatile, better against S&S, D&T and adds some winning rate points vs. Burn thanks to GSZ. I expect a lot of Burns in big Legacy tournaments and it is not a good matchup even fetching basics and Wastelanding in response to PoP. Qasali is a good target for rallier, though, I could accept your reasoning to bring 1 back)
1 Stoneforge Mystic (I have experienced a lot of metagames with and without them and currently feel like playing 0+jitte or the 1+jitte+SoFaI configuration to make opposing Kolaghan's commands worse but still being able to fetch the equipment I want, against Miracles I side her out and only leave the sword, still being able to find it with Enlightened tutor if needed)
// 1 Enchantment
1 Sylvan Library (I feel like 2 are too many)
// 4 Instant
4 Swords to Plowshares
// 22 Land + dryad
2 Forest (I fear Blood moon and being able to cast hierarch and GSZ is very important in that situation)
1 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
2 Savannah
1 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Wasteland
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
1 Cavern of Souls (tough decision, but some games naming human is all you need to win)
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Scrubland
1 Bayou (black lands only for sideboard)
1 Maze of Ith (do we really need it now? Still very good against Reanimator, Dark depths and sometimes S&S)
// 4 Sorcery
4 Green Sun's Zenith
// 15 Sideboard
// 3 Artifact
SB: 1 Null Rod (matchup defining against Mud, Big eldrazi and D&T)
SB: 1 Pithing Needle (versatile card, normally use it to name walkers, Griselbrand, Sneak attack or fetches in certain game situations)
SB: 1 Damping Sphere (I expect some big-mana decks, maybe not necessary but it is good vs. Storm and feel ok in that pairing without canonist)
// 2 Creature
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg (S&S, Miracles, Elves, big-mana decks and some others, protect it and win)
SB: 1 Containment Priest (surprise! Nobody expects it in this type of decks but for obvious reasons cannot play more than 1)
// 1 Enchantment
SB: 1 Choke (I do not play more than 1 to be able to search for other pieces with E tutor)
// 7 Instant
SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor (I think it has been said, also searches for Sylvan library or Equipment if no other target is decent)
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction (I have always brought them against Miracles to counter a caster, exile StPs or Terminus, but maybe it is only correct to bring the pair when we are on the play)
SB: 1 Blessed Alliance (Burn, Reanimator, S&S, additional removal vs creature-heavy decks, depths, Lands, Tnn, unbelievably good)
SB: 2 Zealous Persecution (my only reason to play black, creature decks are not so bad matchups but you sometimes need a brainless mode against good players, Tnn and Storm tokens too obviously)
SB: 1 Path to Exile (Lands, depths, additional removal)
// 2 Planeswalker
SB: 1 Garruk Relentless (so good, free tokens for only one specific mana, additional removal against few but pesky creatures, if he flips the deathtouch tokens and the sinergy are overwhelming, try sacrificing anything to search for rallier)
SB: 1 Nissa, Vital Force (flexible slot, could be a Council's, a Graf cage or another walker like Gideon but read right here she deserves the spot)
I don't play Thoughtseize because dedicating 2-3 sb slots is a mistake in this deck for me and increasing the number of black sources worsens the mana base unless bringing high-impact cards like Liliana tlh.
Please be constructive, I have tested a lot and based my choices especially on my bad matchups. Thanks!
Let me take a comment on MB:Quote:
Originally Posted by Grobbs
-1 Knight of Autumn // +1 Qasali Pridemage (can be recurred by Railler and the most important it cost 2, we have such but mana curve actually to focused on 3cmc, and too big hole at 2 cmc)
-1 Sanctum Prelate // + 1 any good thread at 2cmc - can be sfm, maybe another gaddock Teeg or 4th Thalia to more focus on miracle matchup - reason -to smooth mana curve.
-1 Maze of Ith // + 1 Fetchland - you running only 6 fetchland which is quite small (similar to punishing fire builds).
SB:
1 Null Rod - bad call since it blocks your equipments as well, which are key to D&T matchup - better think about some artifact and enchantment removal best would be 2 for 1 or repeatable.
E.Tutor and only 4 targets in SB - not too versile, tutoring against miracles for Choke is bad call (Miracles MU are mostly grind fest), better add additional choke which will be direct advantage.
Thanks for the response.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatal
Maybe you are right about the 2nd KoA, which I firstly admitted, and I should not worry so much about Burn to improve other matchups. I will follow your advice with qasali for the curve and the rallier recursion.
On the Sanctum, I haven't had much trouble playing it and I think it is a good metacall. I was almost sold on not playing any Sfm because I think they are so bad now, 2nd Gaddock in the main is a bad idea and I don't feel the 4th Thalia to be necessary but really feels good to complement her with prelate. I will think about any other interesting choices for the 2cmc.
I have used the 6 fetchlands for a while and havent't had trouble with the manabase either with GSZ, hierarch and so on, but instead sometimes I suffer from mana flood. I will test my hands to see if the Maze worsens it so much.
Null rod has overperformed for a while, in the matchups I side it in I normally side out the Sfm and Sofai to just leave the jitte or none. It is in fact really good in the D&T matchup, in my experience more than the equipment in which they trust more than us. I thought about Serenity which can also be searched for with E. tutor, but it has to survive a whole turn and doesn't feel a safe assumption.
About the tutor, sometimes I have played more targets and you may be right with the current building. However, searching for a Choke or another of the fetchable pieces have been really useful. I could think about adding the second Choke now in its place anyway.
I may just start a new thread in N&D for this, but I figured I'd post this here for now...
Anyway, I saw mention of Weathered Wayfarer in the UW Stoneblade thread, which brought back nostalgia about UW Tempo. Afterwards, it got me thinking about Turbo Depths. After more ideas started flowing, I ended up with a concept in my head of a Dark Depths deck with a GW aggro core.
The list is still rough, and is missing a lot of cards that I wanted to include originally. Space is always so tight when designing decks....
Here's what I ended up with:
GW Maverick Depths
Lands (28)
4 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
1 Arid Mesa
4 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Seijiri Steppe
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Dark Depths
1 Dryad Arbor
Creatures (20)
4 Weathered Wayfarer
4 Mother of Runes
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Noble Hierarch
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Ramunap Excavator
Spells (12)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Crop Rotation
4 Swords to Plowshares
I wanted more Hierarch's, Mox Diamond, Jitte, Sylvan Library, Horizon Canopy, possibly Solemnity, but there isn't any room. Everything else in the current list just seems more important...
I figure the sideboard needs more hatebears, but I'm not going to worry about the sideboard just yet... I still need to hammer out the maindeck first.
Does anyone have any ideas or suggestions? Has anything like this been attempted before, that I could look at for reference?
EDIT: Maybe I should cut the Bojuka Bog for Horizon Canopy and put Bog in the sideboard?
I'd say: Bog to the board and cut Urborg (doesn't look great in your list as it doesn't make W or G).
Add 1x Hierarch and 1x Canopy and your base is a bit more solid.
Also, I'm not sold yet on the full set of Crop Rotation. They tend to be rather poor in multiples.
On the other hand your list relies rather heavily on lands, so perhaps you need them.
Actually, your list relies so heavily on lands I feel like you could use 3+ Loams in the main deck.
From my experience Wayfarer is great only with Vial, without to many times you will end with just 1/1 dude blocked by own lands and waiting for fetch / opponent land drop to active it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanni
I played M@verick list before GSZ, and probably biggest problem will be gap on 2 cmc (normal list used SFM in this place), in this case can be used Hexmage drop, which is quite restrictive on color wheels.
Probably the biggest challange will be 3 color manabase (BB Hexmage and 1WB for KotR or Railler). For sure I will use Railler as Excavator split, since it can bring back also Hexmage. Hierarchs to 4.
What can be dropped - 4 knights, 4 MoR - keep only 1-2, they're plan B.
Mox Diamonds can be other route opposite to Vial, Aggro Loam is probably good starting shell.
Finally got into MTGO and played a kinda budget list, 5-0'd my first time playing beating UR Delver x2, Miracles, ANT, Turbo Depths! (Do I crack the chests???)
1 Bayou
3 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
1 Plains
4 Marsh Flats
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Dark Depths
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor
-24-
4 Mother of Runes
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia
1 Ooze
1 Ranger
1 Teeg
1 Pridemage
1 Ramunap
1 Knight of Autumn
4 Knight
-24-
4 Plow
1 Jitte
1 Library
1 SOFI
1 Garruk, Relentless
4 Zenith
-12-
SB:
1 Elspeth, KE
1 Knight of Autumn
2 Canonist
1 Path to Exile
2 Decay
2 Zealous
3 Thoughtseize
3 Faerie
Made some mtgo punts as I was getting used to it but core of the deck is still solid. I missed surgical a lot. I missed noble vs miracles and when I had a jitte, otherwise bird was fine. Probably going to just play a 2nd Garruk in the board over the Elspeth because killing creatures has been really relevant and he's easy to cast. My normal list has 3 Verdants over 3 flats, 3 Noble 2 Bird 1 SFM instead of 4 bird 2 SFM, a Canopy over the 3rd Savannah, and Surgicals over fae in the board, it felt really nice not dying to canopy in the two UR matchups though lmao.
Do you ever miss the Black Splash? Jailer is better?Quote:
Originally Posted by NEELEY
Yes. But in the mtgo meta g/w is a higher win percentage for me. I think I’m around 140 games and a 74% win rate. I’ve been playing aggro loam so haven’t played a lot lately with maverick. Jailer is good though, try it out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oathbreakers
Hey I have been playing Maverick for a long time, and I have been struggling with some MU and been tinkering with my sideboard. I'd like to get opinions on my current list. Tough matchup have been Lands and answering true-name nemesis.
// 60 Maindeck
// 3 Artifact
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
// 24 Creature
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Mother of Runes
3 Noble Hierarch
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Birds of Paradise
1 Knight of Autumn
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
// 2 Enchantment
2 Sylvan Library
// 4 Instant
4 Swords to Plowshares
// 23 Land
1 Bayou
2 Forest
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
1 Karakas
// 4 Sorcery
4 Green Sun's Zenith
// 15 Sideboard
// 3 Creature
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Palace Jailer
// 2 Enchantment
SB: 2 Choke
// 4 Instant
SB: 2 Zealous Persecution
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
// 2 Planeswalker
SB: 1 Garruk Relentless
SB: 1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
// 4 Sorcery
SB: 1 Council's Judgment
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
Thanks!
The 4th Knight would really help against lands, ever since they cut black (for decay) they really struggle with you having an active knight. If there is a ton of True Name in your meta coming from control decks then maybe swap the Gideon for an Elspeth, she jumps threats over him. I'd recommend playing Marit Lage instead of cradle and a spell though if you're having problems against TNN from specifically Grixis Control, they don't really have answers for it.
i always felt like the 4th knight was over the top. the card is really good but in some mu, mostly combo, he's just a big beater. I'll still take the tip, and will probably try out the elpeth! thanks a lotQuote:
Originally Posted by Rascalyote
Hello everyone! I'm trying a version of Punishing Maverick with the combo DD+TS, and I removed the Stoneforge package because in a lot of games it was not enough or just a winmore. I'm now testing the following list:
4 Windswept Heath
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Wasteland
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Forest
1 Dark Depths
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Plains
1 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Taiga
1 Thespian's Stage
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Knight of Autumn
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Ramunap Excavator
1 Renegade Rallier
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Tireless Tracker
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Punishing Fire
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Crop Rotation
1 Life from the Loam
1 Sylvan Library
Sideboard
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Choke
2 Council's Judgment
2 Pyroblast
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Knight of Autumn
It's just 59 cards, I don't know though what to add. Someone has suggestions?
I would probably shave a fetch, add a dual. Probably second Savannah. As for card to add, any thought to something like the new 1RG creature that can have haste if you don't put a +1+1 counter on it and is a 3/3 with trample? Sorry the name evades me, but it's in the new set. I always like having a haste creature I can green sun for to kill off an unsuspecting Planeswalker. And with a hierarch or pridemage out it can even trample through a true name without dying. That or Captain Tickles aka Giant SolifugeQuote:
Originally Posted by alvoi
I'll try that, even though I hope they will print something else for Maverick in the Gruuls. One thing I noticed is that I miss a lot Umezawa's Jitte, maybe I can add one or two without all the Stoneforge package (I used to play 3 stoneforge + 1 jitte + 1 batterskull + 1 sword of f&i).Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
One creature I tried a lot but never really impressed me is Renegade Rallier. It is just me or we can easily cut it? Another thing I noticed is that Life from the Loam is far better than Ramunap Excavator, but I think keeping the split 1-1 is better because Ramunap is gszable).
Maybe instead of the second Savannah I can play another fetchable red source? Having only two is sometimes risky
Other cards that came in my mind for the 60th slot (and eventually 61st) are Azusa, Lost but Seeking, Huntmaster of the Fells and Granger Guildmage. Azusa is one of my pet cards, and maybe here with Wasteland and Loam and Ramunap she can be very powerful. Huntmaster is really powerful but the cmc=4 makes him difficult to play in some games. The guildmage is a card that a friend suggested me today, I never tried it but can be useful against X/1s (but maybe a Jitte is better...)
Giant Solifuge is strange, I never thought that that was a playable card in legacy :confused: but maybe I'm wrong.
This is the list that I've been playing for a while now. I've done well with it in team events and just played online and in side events at Star City and at GP's. I've been considering starting to get more active with the deck and with that it means tuning for optimal performance. Currently I'm playing 61 cards (when Knight of Autumn got printed I just couldn't shave my Titania) and it's worked out pretty well for me. I know the 5 mana big creature seems not great but it plays really well with our knight of the reliquary plan and plays super well with any fetch along with wasteland and horizon canopy. Another note, my 4 mana planeswalker of choice has become Elspeth, Knight-Errant instead of Garruk Relentless or Gideon Ally of Zendikar, my reasoning for this is that she provides the same job in the control/miracles matchup, but can also make any of your creatures an evasive clock or can finish the game right on the spot. I know it seems bad because she can't animate herself and only makes 1/1s but shes proved to be quite the powerhouse in the few months that I've played her. The biggest difference that I've noticed on my list vs. traditional lists is my choice of playing Damping Sphere over Ethesworn Canonist. My logic is since there are quite a few sol lands running around the format along with it being good against storm is a great reason to play it. I intentionally don't play Gaea's Cradle because I'm splashing black out of the board, so it just seemed like a natural fit into the deck. I've consistently had success with it against the Eldrazi and other various Stompy lists along with it being just as good as canonist vs storm. Other than that my list is pretty traditional. My fetches are a little wonky, but I decided to play more fetches that get basic plains over basic forests due to the nature of there being wasteland in the format and the unusual amount of back to basics being played right now, and it can potentially put me in a better position to not have my single white source die. So yeah, any input/advice is welcome unless it's basically "Hey, you suck and this list sucks" none of us need to waste time on this.
2 Forest
1 Plains
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
2 Marsh Flats
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Maze of Ith
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
2 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Mother of Runes
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Ramunap Excavator
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Knight of Autumn
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Scryb Ranger
Sideboard
3 Thoughtseize
2 Choke
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Damping Sphere
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Containment Priest
I've played a lot of Titania in Maverick in the past, funnily I always had the thought that Gaea's Cradle was what enabled playing it in the first place, making it relatively easy to curve out BoP, KotR, Titania [edit: or GSZ for Totania even] (though often you'd rather play a Thalia and Waste your opponent before getting there). I guess Ramunap Excavator can help with this too though. I don't have much else to add since I didn't play Maverick for almost a year, tried Shalai when she was new. Nice to see a post though! Damping Sphere is an interesting addition, I'd include it in an Enlightened Tutor board with the usual suspects: RiP, Canonist, E. Plague, Needle, Choke (kind of).