[ATW] Landstill

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Originally Posted by raharu

Would adding Lightning Bolt to the sideboard to help out the Dragonstompy MU be feasable?

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I don't see how this would help. I'm assuming in a Ur or UWr list, they already play Lightning Bolt (which is pretty bad, considering Goyf). You'd have to drop a strong color from one of the 4c builds to add red, except red doesn't really add anything. Deed > pretty much their entire deck. In the case of UWb, Wrath/Humility own them pretty hard. I just don't see how adding Lightning Bolt to the SB would improve what is already a pretty good matchup for 3c builds.

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Originally Posted by Anarky87

I don't see how this would help. I'm assuming in a Ur or UWr list, they already play Lightning Bolt (which is pretty bad, considering Goyf). You'd have to drop a strong color from one of the 4c builds to add red, except red doesn't really add anything. Deed > pretty much their entire deck. In the case of UWb, Wrath/Humility own them pretty hard. I just don't see how adding Lightning Bolt to the SB would improve what is already a pretty good matchup for 3c builds.

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While I don't think you should be putting cards in the board just for Magus, clearly Slaughter Pact is the card of choice if you are (assuming you're playing black).

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Originally Posted by Phantom

While I don't think you should be putting cards in the board just for Magus, clearly Slaughter Pact is the card of choice if you are (assuming you're playing black).

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I agree. I have 1 copy in my SB, which compliments Wrath and Humility MD.

In the news of weird additional cards for 4C Landstill, I've been tinkering around with a pair of Zur The Enchanter. (Yes, I'll wait while you go look him up.)

Janky and slightly overcosted, but he's evasive, moderately tough, and sits there and drops repeated Standstills/Deeds/Plagues. If he gets to swing, I generally win. Chaining into back-to-back-to-back Plague/Plague/Standstill against Goblins was priceless. He's also big enough to live through most of the Deeds he digs up, and his ability even works under a Standstill.

Getting him to swing can be the tricky part, though, since he runs into the same problem all creatures do in that all the removal gets aimed at him.

I feel like having three Standstills out at once with him is about as good as things get.

I have been thinking a lot about the UWg version. It has a Wombat feel to it and the counters, draw, and manlands are just awesome. I also like a little more counters in the list so I put in some Mana Leaks as back up Counterspells. The thing I really wan't to fit MD is Crucible, but the room is not there and I doubt it would be necessary. It is good for some MUs and helps getting lands. Anyways, here is the list.

4 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
2 Windswept Heath
3 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
3 Island
2 Plains
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Nantuko Monastery

2 Decree of Justice

2 EE
3 Wrath of God
2 Humility
4 StP

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
2 Mana Leak
3 Stifle

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
2 Fact or Fiction

SB
2 Krosan Grip
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Meddling Mage
4 Hydroblast
2 Pulse of the Fields

I really love the SB. Beats up on Burn and handles goblins pretty easily. Mage is pretty obvious and Crypt is for those pesky GY combos and Loam. Grip is just good. I probably should up this up to 3, but shouls test. I would most likely cut the 4th Blast.

Why green whithout Deed? Only Monastery and 2x random Grip SB?
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Heres a List i wanna play on a german Tournament at the weekend, "the balanced bunker".
Meta is a lot of Combo and Goofy-Builds.


Mainboard:

4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Faerie Conclave
3 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins
1 Windswept Heath
2 Plains
2 Island

3 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Sword's to Plowshares
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Wrath of God
1 Humility
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Moat
1 Decree of Justice
1 Vedalken Shackles
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Enlightened Tutor



Sideboard:

1 Arcane Laboratory
1 Rule of Law
2 Chill
2 CoP: Red
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pulse of the Fields
3 Stifle
2 Disenchant

I try to get 4x Meddling Mage into it.


Pretty boring list but they want me to play it. ;>

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Originally Posted by Ch@os

Why green whithout Deed? Only Monastery and 2x random Grip SB?

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Monastery and grip are worth the splash. You do know that deed costs :1: :b: :g: , right?

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Originally Posted by Jak.

Monastery and grip are worth the splash. You do know that deed costs :1: :b: :g: , right?

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Jak, your taking out the black splash doesn't help you. It actually takes away 3 key things.

Against goblins your taking away deed and engineered plague. Humilty by itself doest wreck the goblins matchup as they can still get through for damage and usually t4 humility is just alittle too late. And pulse is more like a fog in that matchup anyways if your not running solid mass removal.

For dredge your basic idea is that tormod's crypt will win you the game. Which it won't. Idealisticly they can easily set a challice at 0 to completely stop you for a turn. A key turn in which instead of crypting you could just extripate. Even if they did set challice for one and wait a turn thats a turn you could either set deed or atleast drop explosives.

adding 1-2 more monestarys isn't going to win anymore then if your running 1-2. You don't really want seven colorless slots, even in a 3 c standstill.

Overall it's an average 3c build with a worse matchups then you really need it to have. I would rather opt for wasteland's build of 4c wish still as it has more answers, or even tacosnapes solid 4cstill build. They both bring more to the table then a 3 color special that lacks focus and needs more answers.

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Originally Posted by mossivo1986

Jak, your taking out the black splash doesn't help you. It actually takes away 3 key things.

Against goblins your taking away deed and engineered plague. Humilty by itself doest wreck the goblins matchup as they can still get through for damage and usually t4 humility is just alittle too late. And pulse is more like a fog in that matchup anyways if your not running solid mass removal.

For dredge your basic idea is that tormod's crypt will win you the game. Which it won't. Idealisticly they can easily set a challice at 0 to completely stop you for a turn. A key turn in which instead of crypting you could just extripate. Even if they did set challice for one and wait a turn thats a turn you could either set deed or atleast drop explosives.

adding 1-2 more monestarys isn't going to win anymore then if your running 1-2. You don't really want seven colorless slots, even in a 3 c standstill.

Overall it's an average 3c build with a worse matchups then you really need it to have. I would rather opt for wasteland's build of 4c wish still as it has more answers, or even tacosnapes solid 4cstill build. They both bring more to the table then a 3 color special that lacks focus and needs more answers.

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Actually, I believe it has been determined that the 3c builds CAN handle 7 colorless lands. I played a 4 Factory, 3 Waste UWb build for awhile before dropping a Waste for a Ruins.

Plague sometimes wins you the game against Goblins, but if you're relying on it to trump their entire deck and pave the way for your victory, then you're wrong. Because you lack any real kind of clock (Monastery helps, but if you're under Port lock, it's useless), you give them a lot of time to find an answer to it. Goblins has matured past the point of "Plague = Game Loss," as Rg (even worse) and Rw have ways past it. Plague is one of the reasons I play UWb, but sometimes Plague is merely, "2B: Name Goblins and kill a few 1/1's before this is Gripped or 'Chanted."

Humility actually does work wonders against Goblins. It means that instead of dropping 3cc/4cc/5cc bombs against you, they're paying 3R for a 1/1, 1RR for a 1/1, 3RR for a 1/1. That also means that Pulse becomes huge in that it negates four of their attackers under Humility. Wrath is an excellent sweeper, while StP and EE can plug troublesome things when needed. One would think you'd play Wrath and then drop Humility.

I played 4c Landstill for a long time. I even took it to Gencon and got 10th in the Prelims before getting smashed by Goblins in the Champs (which always seemed rather hit or miss to me. Some games I'd smash them, others I didn't have a prayer). It's a solid deck if you plan on not seeing LftL, Dredge, other recurring strategies, Blood Moon/B2B effects, Price of Progress, etc. I wouldn't say Jak's build is unfocused at all, just a different perspective.

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Originally Posted by mossivo1986

Jak, your taking out the black splash doesn't help you. It actually takes away 3 key things.

Against goblins your taking away deed and engineered plague. Humilty by itself doest wreck the goblins matchup as they can still get through for damage and usually t4 humility is just alittle too late. And pulse is more like a fog in that matchup anyways if your not running solid mass removal.

For dredge your basic idea is that tormod's crypt will win you the game. Which it won't. Idealisticly they can easily set a challice at 0 to completely stop you for a turn. A key turn in which instead of crypting you could just extripate. Even if they did set challice for one and wait a turn thats a turn you could either set deed or atleast drop explosives.

adding 1-2 more monestarys isn't going to win anymore then if your running 1-2. You don't really want seven colorless slots, even in a 3 c standstill.

Overall it's an average 3c build with a worse matchups then you really need it to have. I would rather opt for wasteland's build of 4c wish still as it has more answers, or even tacosnapes solid 4cstill build. They both bring more to the table then a 3 color special that lacks focus and needs more answers.

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Don't be a sheep. There are different ways to build this deck and just because a lot of people advocate the 4c versions, doesn't mean all the other versions are crap.

Goblins usually can not win turn 3 or 4. They can, but with stuff to slow them down like StP, FoW and Factories, they are unlikely to win that fast. You don't have deed, but you have wrath which is just as good. Humility does wreck goblins. I don't see how them attacking you with 4 1/1s is a big deal. It also hoses breakfast and any creature based deck.

Everyone knows Tormod's Crypt is not the best answer for dredge. Thanks for the lesson. I don't run black. Deal with it. Ichorid hardly wins turns 1 and 2 anyways which gives me plenty of time to play EE or something. Crypt is still good because it does slow them down. They will not dredge their whole deck into their GY.

I run just 1 more Monastery than most 4c versions. I also run more basics. My manabase is fine.

[Snip] Not appropriate. - Bardo

I'm not flaming. I'm simply stating facts.

#1 Deed is the best universal answer slot for most of the meta currently.
Goblins/ Dredge / Thresh.

#2 Choosing not to run some of the best cards in the format for other choices and a little bit better plan against "blood moon" type effects isn't worth it to me. I'd rather lose a match to a archtype hozer like dragonstompy, than lose a tier one match to say thresh because I wasn't running the consistent answers for my archtype.

I ran across wasteland's list alittle while ago and tested it "I don't know if i'm repeating this." but I fealt like it was Very solid. It has the universal answers and yet still has enough interchangable slots to keep it winning games.

// Lands
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (2)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [UNH] Plains
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [B] Tundra
2 [B] Underground Sea
2 [B] Tropical Island
1 [B] Scrubland
1 [B] Savannah
1 [UNH] Island
1 [JU] Nantuko Monastery
1 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [JU] Cunning Wish
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
4 [IA] Brainstorm
2 [SC] Stifle
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
4 [IA] Counterspell
2 [TE] Humility
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
4 [OD] Standstill
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [IN] Dismantling Blow
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [IN] Fact or Fiction
SB: 1 [FUT] Slaughter Pact
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague

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Originally Posted by mossivo1986

Stuff...List

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Sorry. I didn't mean to flame. I just got carried away. I just want to say that your thinking is wrong. Deed is aweosme, we know, but it stretching the mana base like that is bad. The list only has it as a 3 of! Not running deed does not mean you lose to goblins or thresh.

Metas are different. I have Dragon Stompy played over here. So saying that you don't want to lose that random MU is wrong, because I play it a lot.

I wouldn't say that I am cutting black, but more of adding green to the UW version. They have different strengths and with WoGs and Humility, I can handle Gobs and Thresh fine. Pernicious deed will hardly make a difference except hit Vials or Needles. Those are important, so I have upped the EE count to 3 in my list and added an Academy Ruins.

Now about the list you posted. You want UU by turn 2 for C Spell, 1BG by turn 3, and then 2WW turn 4. That seems like a difficult task with 6 generic producing lands. I run 7 in my 3 c build and you called that a problem. I really only need UU and WW and I am fine.

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Originally Posted by mossivo1986

Wasteland's list

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That list is just plain and simply inferior to our standard UWb List as Wasteland had to experience painfully at the BazaarofWonders Tournament n°5 where he went 2-4 while our UWb List piloted by Muradin took 4th because he had a brainfart in his fifth round against Goblins (countering a Warchief when he has a Humility and a Plague on the board to loose against next turn Blood Moon).

On a general point of view, there is nothing that the 4c list can handle better than UWb can't... Engineered Explosives and Cunning Wish take the role of handling random artifacts/enchantments while Wrath of God is just plain and simply faster to kill creatures (and can't be needled, stifled etc).
The superior manabase makes matchups like Dragon Stompy so much easier as you can just fetch an Island or Plains early on and ignore that Blood Moon/Magus until you want to handle it.
For reference, here's the list I'm talking about.

Well... it must be said, that i would not have won a single match with UWb, that i lost with the 4C version...
It's simply unlucky to fetch 6 times with CoW and draw additional 5 lands in 5 turns, while your opponent gets out a Tombstalker which cant be blocked by ur monastery or factories or to be paired vs. the UW Szepter / Back to Basics hate-pile which was ONLY good vs Landstill ( performed 2:4 too at the end... )
The other 2 Losses were against NQGr, getting bolted to exactly 0, where my opponent played his deck for the first time and drew 4 ( ! ) red blasts and 3 spell snare, and vs- BG vial elves with ports / wastelands / massive discard...

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Originally Posted by Wasteland

Well... it must be said, that i would not have won a single match with UWb, that i lost with the 4C version...
It's simply unlucky to fetch 6 times with CoW and draw additional 5 lands in 5 turns, while your opponent gets out a Tombstalker which cant be blocked by ur monastery or factories or to be paired vs. the UW Szepter / Back to Basics hate-pile which was ONLY good vs Landstill ( performed 2:4 too at the end... )
The other 2 Losses were against NQGr, getting bolted to exactly 0, where my opponent played his deck for the first time and drew 4 ( ! ) red blasts and 3 spell snare, and vs- BG vial elves with ports / wastelands / massive discard...

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I really dislike when people blame the deck or the cards in the deck for losing games. If your playing a good matchup then you should win a lot unless your mechanics of the game are bad.

If your fetching 6 times and still drawing land then I suggest you shuffle your deck well every time you fetch for a land. You definitely shouldn't be losing to NQGr no matter what version of landstill you are running. I would like to bet that maybe your miss playing this matchup which contributes to your losses.

The key to winning a lot of games in Magic is the ability to shuffle your deck well and make proper mulligans. Then we can focus on your level of skill and know what to do when playing against certain matchups.

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Originally Posted by nickrit2000

You definitely shouldn't be losing to NQGr no matter what version of landstill you are running.

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That is untrue, I'm assuming it was a tempo based version with MB Wasteland and Stifles.

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Originally Posted by Wasteland

The other 2 Losses were against NQGr

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What did the deck look like?

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Originally Posted by nickrit2000

The key to winning a lot of games in Magic is the ability to shuffle your deck well

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Aside from this having nothing to do with Landstill, it's also completely false, stupid, and indicative of cheating. Shuffling your deck must be an effort to randomize the order of cards in your deck. If you don't understand what Random means, that means randomly getting the perfect land/spell ratio, as well as randomly having mana pockets or being mana screwed. Any effort to develop skill in shuffling to get better hands undermines the concept of shuffling entirely, is cheating, and is useless when a smart opponent shuffles your deck for you once or twice.

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

Aside from this having nothing to do with Landstill, it's also completely false, stupid, and indicative of cheating. Shuffling your deck must be an effort to randomize the order of cards in your deck. If you don't understand what Random means, that means randomly getting the perfect land/spell ratio, as well as randomly having mana pockets or being mana screwed. Any effort to develop skill in shuffling to get better hands undermines the concept of shuffling entirely, is cheating, and is useless when a smart opponent shuffles your deck for you once or twice.

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I understood him to mean that unless you shuffle well, your deck won't be sufficiently randomized, which would lead to games where you get mana flooded or mana screwed more easily.

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

Aside from this having nothing to do with Landstill, it's also completely false, stupid, and indicative of cheating. Shuffling your deck must be an effort to randomize the order of cards in your deck. If you don't understand what Random means, that means randomly getting the perfect land/spell ratio, as well as randomly having mana pockets or being mana screwed. Any effort to develop skill in shuffling to get better hands undermines the concept of shuffling entirely, is cheating, and is useless when a smart opponent shuffles your deck for you once or twice.

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I'm not sure where you got the implication of cheating when I was talking about shuffling your deck well. I'm simple saying from my experience in this game that a lot of players don't take the time to shuffle their deck well before they present their deck to their opponent. The same thing goes for after you use a fetch land, its your responsible to randomize your deck, not just a simple cut. By taking more time to do these small things, will improve the success you have with whatever deck you decide to play.

I have never cheated at this game, I try to improve all areas of my game even though many players focus only on a few. I would appreciate an apology.